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guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

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multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Ooooofffffff multi how can you come to the conclusion that God thinks evil things are good? 

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buckmaster81 Said:
Even if you are a non-believer how can you believe that a child doesn't deserve to live? By the same reasoning it should be fine to kill the mother if the mood strikes me...

wich non believer here said he was pro choice?

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Plainsman Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Ooooofffffff multi how can you come to the conclusion that God thinks evil things are good? 

By reading the bible.

so you mean to tell me humans have always had the same morals given to us by god, we have always had the same interpretations of right & wrong, good & bad?  so we used to kidnap, buy and sell other people, we knew it was bad and against god, but still did it anyway.

by the way, slavery is just one of thousands of examples of bad things the majority of humans saw acceptable through history.

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 for the life begins at conception folks:  embryos for fertilization treatment sitting frozen in a medical facility?  plan b morning after pill that prevents a fertilized egg from implanting up to a few days after the fertilzation?  sort of got one answer from buck... but, not really an opinion on what to do with the existing embryos.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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Multi.  The bible isn't meant to be taken literally. Look how long ago it was written..  It is meant to teach lessons and the history of Christianity. 

multi-species-angler Said:

Plainsman Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Ooooofffffff multi how can you come to the conclusion that God thinks evil things are good? 

By reading the bible.

so you mean to tell me humans have always had the same morals given to us by god, we have always had the same interpretations of right & wrong, good & bad?  so we used to kidnap, buy and sell other people, we knew it was bad and against god, but still did it anyway.

by the way, slavery is just one of thousands of examples of bad things the majority of humans saw acceptable through history.

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 I find plan B just a good as murder, same with embryos sitting within a medical facility espringers

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Shweedel Said:
 I find plan B just a good as murder, same with embryos sitting within a medical facility espringers

understandable cause i get the "life begins at conception" train of thought... but, a follow up then... do you think those treatments shouldn't even be performed?  and/or what would you propose be done with the extra embryos?  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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i think christian conservatives are really doing themselves a disservice by trying to rid the world of abortion.  generally speaking people who feel very strongly about having abortions are the people who mock you for religion and condone liberalism.

i say jump on board and praise them for it.  you dont really want them raising yet another generation of irritating liberal tards do you?

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I guess it might be sappy but I believe in protecting the vunerable and voiceless.....

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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espringers Said:
 

Shweedel Said:
 I find plan B just a good as murder, same with embryos sitting within a medical facility espringers

understandable cause i get the "life begins at conception" train of thought... but, a follow up then... do you think those treatments shouldn't even be performed?  and/or what would you propose be done with the extra embryos?  

I posted a simalar scenario earlier no one commented on.  what if a husband and wife are doing this kind of procedure to have children of their own, and all the embryos placed inside the mother are succesful, and will pose a high risk of death for her and some of the babies if  6 or 7 of these embryos are allowed to go full term. 

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multi-species-angler Said:

espringers Said:
 

Shweedel Said:
 I find plan B just a good as murder, same with embryos sitting within a medical facility espringers

understandable cause i get the "life begins at conception" train of thought... but, a follow up then... do you think those treatments shouldn't even be performed?  and/or what would you propose be done with the extra embryos?  

I posted a simalar scenario earlier no one commented on.  what if a husband and wife are doing this kind of procedure to have children of their own, and all the embryos placed inside the mother are succesful, and will pose a high risk of death for her and some of the babies if  6 or 7 of these embryos are allowed to go full term. 

I don't believe they should have done that procedure in the first place....and I have already said that...

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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 I aint got time fo sucking babys out of the womb with a vacuum and people trying to make me think the way i was brought up is a hoax,  I just aint got time for dat...  

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Enslow Said:
 I aint got time fo sucking babys out of the womb with a vacuum and people trying to make me think the way i was brought up is a hoax,  I just aint got time for dat...  

                   ^ This is AWESOME!^

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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Plainsman Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Ooooofffffff multi how can you come to the conclusion that God thinks evil things are good? 

Well, he is responsible for evil.

espringers Said:
 

Shweedel Said:
 I find plan B just a good as murder, same with embryos sitting within a medical facility espringers

understandable cause i get the "life begins at conception" train of thought... but, a follow up then... do you think those treatments shouldn't even be performed?  and/or what would you propose be done with the extra embryos?  

If that is how Shweedel thinks, then I hope he hasn't ever spanked the monkey

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multi-species-angler Said:

Plainsman Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Ooooofffffff multi how can you come to the conclusion that God thinks evil things are good? 

By reading the bible.

so you mean to tell me humans have always had the same morals given to us by god, we have always had the same interpretations of right & wrong, good & bad?  so we used to kidnap, buy and sell other people, we knew it was bad and against god, but still did it anyway.

by the way, slavery is just one of thousands of examples of bad things the majority of humans saw acceptable through history.

I thought we already plowed this ground.  Anyway, people have always been evil since the fall of mankind.  We are by nature enemies of God. 

Those that think we have free will may be interested in reading Luther's explanation of "Bondage of the will".

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multi-species-angler Said:
Its not such a simple answer, all social animals have forms of morality just to survive. from wolves to crocodiles, and these animals have no awareness of a god or religion.

Plainsman, are you refering to the same place elephants and alligators get their morals from?  Because if you think its something supernatural I have to disagree (of course)  a dog has no self awareness of itself among the universe, it has zero spirituality or knowledge of religion, but it does have a good concept of right and wrong.

Wolve, crocodiles, elephants, alligators have morals?????  You do know the Lion King is a fairy tale right?

mor·al

[ máwrəl ]

 

  1. involving right and wrong: relating to issues of right and wrong and to how individual people should behave
  2. derived from personal conscience: based on what somebody's conscience suggests is right or wrong, rather than on what rules or the law says should be done
  3. according to common standard of justice: regarded in terms of what is known to be right or just, as opposed to what is officially or outwardly declared to be right or just

    mor·al (môr l, m r-) adj. 1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character

    So multi are you suggesting these animals have the capacity to be concerned that their actions are right? 

    And yes I have read some of Professor Marc Bekoff's theories. Have yet to see any of the hard proof you science guys always claim is so necessary to beleive anything though.

    Biologists have also observed a female Rodrigues fruit-eating bat in Gainesville, Florida, helping another female to give birth by showing the pregnant female the correct birthing position – with head up and feed down. 

    I mean a fruit bat flying in or crawling to mimic how another bat  is positioned being stretched to her having the "morals" to want to show the other bat how to give birth properly is a bit of a stretched "theory"  on animals having morals. 

    At least our "morals" keep us from eating our young to get the female back in heat.
     

     

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multi-species-angler Said:
 why does a human mother drown her childeren in a bath tub? At least the tomcat has a logical reason, so the female will let him breed with her.  Believe it or not different animals have varying levels of morality.  Guy, I guarantee your dog weighed the consequences before stealing that steak off the table.

So you are saying the dog that will sit at the table all day and never touch the steak has beter morals and the actual ability to determine that by taking that steak his "companion" may go hungry and experience stomach cramps that lead to pain and will have to take the time to cook himself another meal whereby the time he spends with his children will be lessened making his life less complete?  So that is why he does not steal the steak? 

Or has he simnply been conditioned to a dominant command repsonse better than the other dog.

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 where is the mention of god in that definition, and you accuse non believers of asking for proof when religion refuses to supply evidence.

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guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

Ah but everyone knows that coyotes are evil.
 
Where do you think the low down no good coyote phrase came from?

I wonder if that coyote would steal that steak?
 
Apparently they simply have no morals.

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multi-species-angler Said:
 where is the mention of god in that definition, and you accuse non believers of asking for proof when religion refuses to supply evidence.

Who and what is this question directed to?

If it is me and the definition I gave of morals, why would God be mentioned in it? It is a definition of an emotion that causes a response. It is defining what it is, not where it comes from?  

Thats like asking where is the mention of evolution in that definition?

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 speaking of fairy tales, tell me the one about the talking snake.

In all seriousness, back to the accusation that nonbelievers are devoid of morals.  So you're saying I have no morals? Or I do have morals but your god that I don't believe exists gave them to me? I could supply you with evidence of morals existing in species other than humans, but you would keep demanding proof.  Even though you need only faith to believe in the supernatural, you must have proof to believe anything which might contradict your religious interpretations.

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IF u guys get struck by lightning in January don't come crawling to me!  :)

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multi-species-angler Said:
 speaking of fairy tales, tell me the one about the talking snake.

In all seriousness, back to the accusation that nonbelievers are devoid of morals.  So you're saying I have no morals? Or I do have morals but your god that I don't believe exists gave them to me? I could supply you with evidence of morals existing in species other than humans, but you would keep demanding proof.  Even though you need only faith to believe in the supernatural, you must have proof to believe anything which might contradict your religious interpretations.

multi is this directed to me, because I don;t ever recall saying you have no morals, Ican;t make that decision as I have never met you or spent time around you to know.

Morals are not derived from God, the ability to decide if one wishes to have and develope morals is.

Big differnce

And before you go saying hasn;t God given crocidiles and alligators this same ability?

In less than two hundred years man has used the ability to think and reason to better his life in how many different ways. What has the crocidile done? 

We were given capacities of thought and reason other species were not.

If we were not, explain why man has changed so much more than the alligator or crocidile?

"Science" should be able to explain that for you multi in the differences between the brain capacities of the two species.

And Multi I only referenced the need for "proof" as you have continueally demanded "proof" of a higher power. So if you are going to set the standard of proof for the existance of God should there then not be a requirement of scientific proof more than how a bat positions itself to show animals have morals? 

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Your morals are based on what you DECIDE is right or wrong.  In other words,  if you get angry enough,  you could DECIDE to shoot me.   The only thing that might make you think twice about shooting me(if you get angry enough) would be the fact that the government has its own set of ideals called laws that make it illegal for you to kill me whether you think it's right or not.   Christians have even more reasons not to shoot someone.  For one thing murder is sin,   for another thing the Bible says over and over love thy neighbor as thyself,  do unto others as you would have them to you, etc(neither involve killing).   Whatsoever you sow therefore also shall you reap(I kill you,  I'm going to pay dearly in this life or the next)   

You are deciding for yourself what is right and wrong.   And that scares me.   Because on any given day my own personal idea of what is right and wrong depends on my MOOD at the time.  The Bible and faith in Christ doesn't give us that option.  We know right from wrong because he told us right from wrong and if we should do wrong we know that we will be accountable for it on a much higher level than getting put in prison.    

Choosing to believe in God involves believing in something you can't prove,  but you choose to believe it because you think that there is something bigger going on in this world.    You should know a lot about fairy tales because all the evolutionist perspectives begin just like fairy tales "long ago and far away...billions of years ago.".    There is no scientific proof for evolution,  just as I can't PROVE to you that God exists.   Evolution is a religion just as Christianity is.  No one was here billions of years ago so therefore no one can prove that we came from monkeys,  just as I can't prove to you that the earth and universe was created by God in six days..    But don't pretend you aren't believing in a THEORY just as I am.   

In essence you believe we are all our own gods,   I believe I answer to one almighty God.    That doesn't make me better than you,  that doesn't make me some incredible person that never does anything wrong.  That makes me forgiven and accountable to something other than myself.  

Multi-species-angler Said:

 speaking of fairy tales, tell me the one about the talking snake.

In all seriousness, back to the accusation that nonbelievers are devoid of morals.  So you're saying I have no morals? Or I do have morals but your god that I don't believe exists gave them to me? I could supply you with evidence of morals existing in species other than humans, but you would keep demanding proof.  Even though you need only faith to believe in the supernatural, you must have proof to believe anything which might contradict your religious interpretations.

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Enslow Said:
IF u guys get struck by lightning in January don't come crawling to me!  :)

Actually, any of the following getting struck by lightning out of a clear blue sky or sodomized to death by a stray bull would cause me to believe in god again:

Benny Hinn, Robert Tilton, Michael Murdock, Paul and Jan Crouch, Fred Felps, Pat Robertson, Creflo Dollar, The Pope, John Hagee, Bryan Fischer, Charles Worley, Jack Schaap         I could probably come up with a few more minor ones as well.  

These people have all either used their pulpits to get rich, abuse people sexually, or spread hatred.   Some of them do all 3.

If your god will not stop evil from going on in his name then what good is he?

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 there are mountains of evidence for evolution, there is none that determines religion is even plausible.  I ask for evidence, not proof.  This debate started when someone sugested abortion happens because non believers have no morals.  So we agree non believers have morals now.

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who gives a shit,wtf

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Show me scientific evidence.  Let's hear it.  This should be good.  

multi-species-angler Said:
 there are mountains of evidence for evolution, there is none that determines religion is even plausible.  I ask for evidence, not proof.  This debate started when someone sugested abortion happens because non believers have no morals.  So we agree non believers have morals now.
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The Mantis Said:
Show me scientific evidence.  Let's hear it.  This should be good.  

multi-species-angler Said:
 there are mountains of evidence for evolution, there is none that determines religion is even plausible.  I ask for evidence, not proof.  This debate started when someone sugested abortion happens because non believers have no morals.  So we agree non believers have morals now.

And this is what I think is wrong with America.

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 That's funny,  I was expecting you to pull out some crap about carbon dating or at least come up with something.  You have nothing.  

Did you know they have carbon dated boots that our great grandpa would have worn at 10,000 years old?    I thought maybe you'd say something about the grand canyon being carved by  the colorado river over millions of years despite the fact that where the river enters the canyon is lower then where it exits the canyon(top of the canyon elevations not the bottom.)

Think for yourself instead of absorbing everything they  shove down your throat about dinosaurs and monkeys and fabricated fossil evidence.   Evolution is not science.  

I'm done.  

This is a hunting and fishing website,  and I get enough of your invalid argument from my liberal co-worker who voted for obama.

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The Mantis Said:
 That's funny,  I was expecting you to pull out some crap about carbon dating or at least come up with something.  You have nothing.  

Did you know they have carbon dated boots that our great grandpa would have worn at 10,000 years old?    I thought maybe you'd say something about the grand canyon being carved by  the colorado river over millions of years despite the fact that where the river enters the canyon is lower then where it exits the canyon(top of the canyon elevations not the bottom.)

Think for yourself instead of absorbing everything they  shove down your throat about dinosaurs and monkeys and fabricated fossil evidence.   Evolution is not science.  

I'm done.  

This is a hunting and fishing website,  and I get enough of your invalid argument from my liberal co-worker who voted for obama.

and proved my point

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speaking of fairy tales, tell me the one about the talking snake.
 

Not that again.  A lot sure is lost in interpretation.  The New Testament was written in Greek, but much of the Old Testament is in Hebrew.   Most Bibles will say Eave was tempted by the serpent.  Some Sunday school teachers will tell children a snake.  If we go back to original Hebrew text it's Satan.  That word also doesn't equate with devil either it means deceiver or in some context accuser. 

Evolution?  With over 100 credits in science and 36 years working with scientists I got pounded with evolution for a long time.  In the academic world you don't find one profession that will often challenge another.  If you look into some of the more advanced statistics you will find that nearly all will agree that anything that has a chance greater than 1-50K requires an outside influence.  Another thought that challenges how evolution works is irreversible complexity.  Staunch evolutionists will try laugh off  these new developing contradictions to evolution, but they are very real and convincing.

Some may think they are sophisticated and modern when they believe evolution.  The idea actually started in ancient Greece not with Darwin.  If memory serves me a number of wealthy individuals paid Darwin to go out and prove this theory.  Much like partisan scientists try to prove global warming today.  Shovel enough money or power towards even science and it will become corrupted. 

Many people today are more impressed with secular authors than religious authors.  For those that feel that way look back to secular authors during the time the Bible talks about the life of Jesus.  Try Flavius Josephus for one.  There are many others.

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 multi I don't think you should have to be a Christian to figure out that killing babies is wrong....

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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Holy shitballs batman! Just when I thought we had hit bottom... Rolmfao!

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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Plainsman, All of the ancient OT manuscripts were written in Hebrew. The Hebrew word you refer to above is pronounced "na-hash" which means serpent, not Satan. I appreciate the rest of what you have written though, especially pointing back to the great Jewish historian Josephus.

IMO, life is sacred. To hear the stories of those who were adopted makes me upset that we're not able to hear the stories of those who never had the chance. Especially those who's lives were thrown away frivolously because it was "more convenient".

The issues we debate are always more complex than one person's opinion, or mine for that matter, especially when real lives are involved. It's easy to stand upon our principles, morals, and ideals so long as the issues remain at arm's length. Real life can messy up the water pretty quickly though...


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multi-species-angler Said:
 there are mountains of evidence for evolution, there is none that determines religion is even plausible.  I ask for evidence, not proof.  This debate started when someone sugested abortion happens because non believers have no morals.  So we agree non believers have morals now.

My apologies, hopefully you do not consider the bat thingy "evidence".

You certainly seem to dislike religion and faith. Have you ever answered why it is so important to you to prove others wrong in their beleifs regarding a faith in a higher power?

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Plainsman, All of the ancient OT manuscripts were written in Hebrew. The Hebrew word you refer to above is pronounced "na-hash" which means serpent, not Satan. I appreciate the rest of what you have written though, especially pointing back to the great Jewish historian Josephus.

Hmmmm I'll seen one where it said Satan, that old serpant of old.   Would you happen to know what they meant by serpent.  Was it the same as we would think today?  Now I am trying to remember where I heard it spelled Satan.  Not Satan as we pronounce it, but hmmm like Set-on.  I may be spelling it wrong.  Now I have to go dig, or can you help me out a little further?  Have I mixed it up with the Greek?

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Sorry, had a double post.

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I got to say this, in all honesty, there are some really interesting, educated, and well read individuals on this site, and topics like this one, although not up everyone's alley, show that many of us have passions or interests that go well beyond hunting and fishing.  Also, even though many of us are polar opposites in some of our beliefs, we still have the love of the outdoors in common.  

All in all, I think most of the people who have posted have done a good job trying to articulate their arguments and despite the emotions involved with this subject we have been very tame towards each other.  Kudos to all for that.

Bottom line is that most of us at this point in our lives aren't going to have our beliefs/opinions changed.

My beliefs tell me that we are all children of God, and whether you believe or not, does not determine whether you will enter his kingdom after death.  And also, merely believing in his existence does not guarantee you enter into his kingdom.  It is quite possible, in my opinion, to not believe in God, yet live your life in a manner that will get you to heaven.  I guess those of us who do believe just have something more to think about when faced with choices of right or wrong.   

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 Morals:
Mine came from within and was influence by living a life. 
Sometimes I struggle with what is or was right or wrong.  Like going to nam and doing what I and others did there.
But in the end I am comfortable with that even though it may have been wrong.
To me aborting a baby I conceived is wrong but then I never conceived a baby that the two of us did not want.  Db

Db

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I think its good but bad like some say with the welfare and criminals. But yeaht on the other hand the doctors and who knows maybe the best president ever HAHA. But on the other hand take in count of the people who are saved from the suffering of cancer or the people with needs that have to live but cant do it on the own. Forsay some girl very close to you gets rapped and pregnate ???? Toutchy subject.

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Plainsman Said:

speaking of fairy tales, tell me the one about the talking snake.
 

Not that again.  A lot sure is lost in interpretation.  The New Testament was written in Greek, but much of the Old Testament is in Hebrew.   Most Bibles will say Eave was tempted by the serpent.  Some Sunday school teachers will tell children a snake.  If we go back to original Hebrew text it's Satan.  That word also doesn't equate with devil either it means deceiver or in some context accuser. 

Evolution?  With over 100 credits in science and 36 years working with scientists I got pounded with evolution for a long time.  In the academic world you don't find one profession that will often challenge another.  If you look into some of the more advanced statistics you will find that nearly all will agree that anything that has a chance greater than 1-50K requires an outside influence.  Another thought that challenges how evolution works is irreversible complexity.  Staunch evolutionists will try laugh off  these new developing contradictions to evolution, but they are very real and convincing.

Some may think they are sophisticated and modern when they believe evolution.  The idea actually started in ancient Greece not with Darwin.  If memory serves me a number of wealthy individuals paid Darwin to go out and prove this theory.  Much like partisan scientists try to prove global warming today.  Shovel enough money or power towards even science and it will become corrupted. 

Many people today are more impressed with secular authors than religious authors.  For those that feel that way look back to secular authors during the time the Bible talks about the life of Jesus.  Try Flavius Josephus for one.  There are many others.

I'd be more apt to take you more serious when talking about science and evolution but the fact that you didn't and maybe still don't understand the difference between a scientific law and scientific theory, just won't allow me to do so.

Josephus? You mean the guy who the vast majority of scholars agree that his text was a forgery?

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I thought maybe you'd say something about the grand canyon being carved by  the colorado river over millions of years despite the fact that where the river enters the canyon is lower then where it exits the canyon(top of the canyon elevations not the bottom

Ok, even though its way off topic, my curiosity is overwhelming.  first - How was the grand canyon formed? second -  How and where did you get the information it was formed that way?

In other words the geologists and scientists that have studied the area are either all wrong, or they have a hidden agenda or are being paid by our government to cover up the truth?  I'm just asking for help to understand how you found a completley new source with more evidence that is more convincing than what geoligists and scientists have compiled since it's discovery.

lets get past something as simple as the grand canyon before we tackle evolution.  If you can't accept evidence for this, there's no point in even starting evolution. 

So you mean to tell me that the video posted below is a hoax and none of the information and evidence makes any sense to you?  And you have a completely different theory with as much if not more physical evidence than the folks in this educational video have studied and gathered?

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and since I assume you don't plan to watch the entire hour long detailed video...here's a short simple one

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 Adn

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 well... now we are getting somewhere.  i was so entertained by the grand canyon and the evolution comments above i darn near started two new threads when this one left the top page... one devoted to each topic just to watch the ensuing circus unfold.  but, thank God (msa... you can just thank your bowl of cheerios. lol) someone brought it back up again.  these two topics are truly revealing... 

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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I'd be more apt to take you more serious when talking about science and evolution but the fact that you didn't and maybe still don't understand the difference between a scientific law and scientific theory, just won't allow me to do so.

Oh, I absolutely understand it.  It means like the existence of God none of us can prove it.  So both take faith.  For me believing evolution would require more faith than believing in God.

I didn't bring up theory because my experience has been those who believe evolution get angry.  Most responses have been "I can't believe you reverted to that".  I don't understand why they say reverted to since it really is theory. 

What destroys evolution (in my mind) is the complexity of a single cell, and the way we are told evolution works.  Now if a genetic anomaly was not required to benefit the species and every genetic attribute was passed on I think you would get the chances down to (just an estimate) maybe one in a million.  Unlike a lottery ticket where a winner is guaranteed the evolutionary process falls within the realms of the chaos theory.  That gets us back to the statistic reality that things with chances greater than 1/50,000 do not happen without outside influence.  Pure chaos can only influence things under that threshold.

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 first we have to adress the grand canyon, as much as I would love to start asking about the theory of evolution vs the hypothesis of irreversible complexity, lets tackle the easy topic first.

I can't believe I've been drinking the kool aid for so long, so please, someone enlighten me as to how the grand canyon was truly formed......with evidence and sources please.

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Sorry it's hard to keep up with this thread..

"spanking the monkey" as you put it, isn't  an embryo, nor a human.  It takes two to tango kind sir.
anyways, I'm not sure where we are even at in this conversation. But sperm cells are NOT a a fertilized eggs, so I not sure where you are going with that.

Im not sure how other Christian religions teach this, but the Catholc Churh believes in evolution, you can't say we haven't evolved.  Humans have developed over time, it's proven. But someone had to create it, who would that be? God.  
 

BringingTheRain Said:

Plainsman Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Ooooofffffff multi how can you come to the conclusion that God thinks evil things are good? 

Well, he is responsible for evil.

espringers Said:
 

Shweedel Said:
 I find plan B just a good as murder, same with embryos sitting within a medical facility espringers

understandable cause i get the "life begins at conception" train of thought... but, a follow up then... do you think those treatments shouldn't even be performed?  and/or what would you propose be done with the extra embryos?  

If that is how Shweedel thinks, then I hope he hasn't ever spanked the monkey

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