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buckmaster81 Said:
I don't get how all you knuckle heads say its about choice. How hard is it to figure out that the living being should be afforded the chance to live.

to have an abortion or not to have one. both legal and those are 2 choices. really not that hard to figure out. whats right and wrong is up to the person making the choice. pretty simple stuff

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I would like one single person who made the decision to abort a baby stand up and say that they are glad they made that decision and would do it again. 

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It makes me feel good to do good,

I believe you multispecies, but how do you know what your doing is good. Maybe I don't like it. Maybe it's actually bad. Who's to say? What are the standards that say what you do is good? What are the standards for bad? Where did these ideas come from? Maybe those priests that molested little boys thought they were doing good. Evidently you and I don't think so, but maybe were wrong and the priests are right. How do we know?

well, if I help you fix your car when your stranded on the side of the road, you feel pretty good about it afterward as well I, so I'm pretty confident that is an example of doing good.  If I tell you that hair cut makes you look good you feel good and I do as well.  If you bang a 9 year old while he's in tears and emotionally and mentally scar him for life and make him second guess every authority figure in his life there after.... I would call that bad.  but what would I know, I'm just a godless freak doomed to Hades.

We can play the what if and maybe game all day long, but if you really need and get your moral dictation from religion and religion alone I suggest you don't miss any communions.

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Enslow Said:

I would like one single person who made the decision to abort a baby stand up and say that they are glad they made that decision and would do it again. 

I don't think such a person exists.

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Muliti - so how much hate mail and threats have you recieved via pm since this thread started?

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

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 George Carlin on abortion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w15OS2PdCKo


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Wags86 Said:
Muliti - so how much hate mail and threats have you recieved via pm since this thread started?

from who....the morally superior? surprisingly none yet, give it time.

I'm still blown away that so many can't understand how I control my urges to rape and murder everything in sight since I don't believe in god(s) and therefore have no morals.

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beminoid31 Said:

buckmaster81 Said:
I don't get how all you knuckle heads say its about choice. How hard is it to figure out that the living being should be afforded the chance to live.

to have an abortion or not to have one. both legal and those are 2 choices. really not that hard to figure out. whats right and wrong is up to the person making the choice. pretty simple stuff

And the other living being in the equation has no rights????

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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multi-species-angler Said:

Wags86 Said:
Muliti - so how much hate mail and threats have you recieved via pm since this thread started?

from who....the morally superior? surprisingly none yet, give it time.

I'm still blown away that so many can't understand how I control my urges to rape and murder everything in sight since I don't believe in god(s) and therefore have no morals.

multi-species-angler Said:


It makes me feel good to do good,

I believe you multispecies, but how do you know what your doing is good. Maybe I don't like it. Maybe it's actually bad. Who's to say? What are the standards that say what you do is good? What are the standards for bad? Where did these ideas come from? Maybe those priests that molested little boys thought they were doing good. Evidently you and I don't think so, but maybe were wrong and the priests are right. How do we know?

well, if I help you fix your car when your stranded on the side of the road, you feel pretty good about it afterward as well I, so I'm pretty confident that is an example of doing good.  If I tell you that hair cut makes you look good you feel good and I do as well.  If you bang a 9 year old while he's in tears and emotionally and mentally scar him for life and make him second guess every authority figure in his life there after.... I would call that bad.  but what would I know, I'm just a godless freak doomed to Hades.

We can play the what if and maybe game all day long, but if you really need and get your moral dictation from religion and religion alone I suggest you don't miss any communions.

I agree with you about those things multi.  I think we would agree on most things that are either good or bad.   I'm simply asking you what is the basis for your standards.  If there is no God what makes something good or bad?   Is it simply emotion.  Some people don't give a rats behind about my feelings or yours.  There are those out there that would shoot us both, but don't.  I'll bet a couple think that would be a GOOD idea.  Me anyway.
Without some basis who are you or I to say something is good or bad?  Something tells us molesting that nine year old boy is bad.   I have a source, but I'm interested in your source.  I'm not just trying to be difficult I seriously want to know.

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Funny how the people that claim they don't believe in God are always the first to bring him into the discussion. I don't think you need to be Christian to think that killing babies is wrong. 

What is shocking is there are people on here that have kids that are OK with abortion. Seeing a babies heart beat inside the mothers womb is proof enough you are killing a living human being. No different than walking up to a person on the street and ending their life. 

 "Play it Mr.Toot"

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Multi, were you raised Catholic?

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passiton Said:

BringingTheRain Said:
The thing with abortion, banning it isn't going to stop it from happening. Kind of like gun violence.

Good argument.

Let's say that a gunman/woman went around targeting pregnant woman and shot them in the midsection killing their babies, but the women's lives were saved.  Say his defense was that he only intended on terminating the unborn child, to prevent over-population, and never had any intention of killing the women.  What would a jury or court convict this gunman/woman for?  Say these women had every intention of carrying these babies to term.  

How do the pro-choice people argue in support of this, since he didn't commit murder in their eyes, just shot some women. 

What?

fear_no_fish Said:
The thing with murder, banning it isn't going to stop it from happening.

Your argument treads no water unless you think we should make all murders legal? 

BringingTheRain Said:
The thing with abortion, banning it isn't going to stop it from happening. Kind of like gun violence.

Hold all the water you need. Banning abortion isn't going to stop it. Banning murder doesn't stop it, Banning gun violence won't stop it, banning drugs wont stop it, etc etc.

fear_no_fish Said:
God doesnt control our lives, we have free will.............. 

Candiru Said:
 Since about 20-40 percent of pregnancies end up in miscarriages,   why does god abort so many babies?

God is ultimately responsible for everything. No way around that.

Multi species I am still interested in where your morals come from.  I'm certain your a good person, but where did your parents get those morals they tought you.  Without some basis anything is ok. 

You must have missed my post. Human nature. In order for the species to continue, we need to get along. Wether you like it or not, there is another answer to where humans get morals.

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  Its real easy to sit back on the side lines and talk about how bad a Abortion is. Its the lady body and she can do anything she wants with it. Its legal and she is doing nothing wrong in her eyes. So who are you to say what she can do.

Now I dont want to here all your reasons why she shouldnt do it. Its not your body and you have no say.

Relive your memories take a kid hunting and fishing

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 This thread is an abortion...  

 

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 I will have to admit I am surprise by the ease of some on here to be so indifferent about life.
Also the ease of dismissing some kind of faith in ones life.
I would of thought it would have been stronger by those who visit this site.
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 Maybe I am in the minority here but.  When i and the women I was with did not want a baby we made sure there was no chance for a baby.
When it was decided to have a baby between the two of us I then had a say in the future of that baby.
I did not go out and make a baby with just anyone and then walk away.
Life is the good choice as I assume all here are thankful for their life.
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I agree with you about those things multi.  I think we would agree on most things that are either good or bad.   I'm simply asking you what is the basis for your standards.  If there is no God what makes something good or bad?   Is it simply emotion.  Some people don't give a rats behind about my feelings or yours.  There are those out there that would shoot us both, but don't.  I'll bet a couple think that would be a GOOD idea.  Me anyway.
Without some basis who are you or I to say something is good or bad?  Something tells us molesting that nine year old boy is bad.   I have a source, but I'm interested in your source.  I'm not just trying to be difficult I seriously want to know.

History shows that a "non-believer" like myself isn't the one who should be answering questions about where his morals come from.  I've never had an urge to fly a plane into a building, rape a 9 year old boy, or harm other people because of a difference of mythological & spiritual opinion.  To be honest I am really offended when religious people make statements like "without religion there are no morals"

If I was forced to choose a religious source of moral teaching, it certainly wouldn't be from any of the christian or muslim based faiths.

below are some faces of the most vile and morally devoid people on the planet that are completely incapable of compassion or determining simple differences from right or wrong.

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 MSA.... Lance Armstrong.... bad example. 

Is it impious to weigh goose music and art in the same scales? I think not, because the true hunter is merely a noncreative artist. Who painted the first picture on a bone in the caves of France? A hunter. Who alone in our modern life so thrills to the sight of living beauty that he will endure hunger and thirst and cold to feed his eye upon it? The hunter. Who wrote the great hunter's poem about the sheer wonder of the wind, the hail, and the snow, the stars, the lightnings, and the clouds, the lion, the deer, and the wild goat, the raven, the hawk, and the eagle, and above all the eulogy to the horse? Job, one of the great dramatic artists of all time. Poets sing and hunters scale the mountains primarily for one and the same reason--the thrill of beauty. Critics write and hunters outwit their game primarily for one and the same reason--to reduce that beauty to possession. The differences are largely matters of degree, consciousness, and that sly arbiter of the classification of human activities, language. If, then, we can live without goose music, we may as well do away with stars, or sunsets, or Iliads. But the point is we would be fools to do away with any of them. 

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You must have missed my post. Human nature. In order for the species to continue, we need to get along. Wether you like it or not, there is another answer to where humans get morals.

That tells why we need morals not where we get them.

History shows that a "non-believer" like myself isn't the one who should be answering questions about where his morals come from. I've never had an urge to fly a plane into a building, rape a 9 year old boy, or harm other people because of a difference of mythological & spiritual opinion. To be honest I am really offended when religious people make statements like "without religion there are no morals"

Hey I have been polite and simply asked where you get yours.  I have told you I would expect your a kind and decent person.  Just tell me what you think the basis is for you to know good and evil. 
I'm sure you have never had the urge to do those terrible things you listed.  No one thinks you would.  I'm wondering why?  I'm just curious where your ideas about good or bad come from.  Would you please consider telling me??????

below are some faces of the most vile and morally devoid people on the planet that are completely incapable of compassion or determining simple differences from right or wrong.
 

OK, I'm not to sharp tonight.  What's the point?

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Hey I have been polite and simply asked where you get yours.  I have told you I would expect your a kind and decent person.  Just tell me what you think the basis is for you to know good and evil. 
I'm sure you have never had the urge to do those terrible things you listed.  No one thinks you would.  I'm wondering why?  I'm just curious where your ideas about good or bad come from.  Would you please consider telling me??????
 

Its not such a simple answer, all social animals have forms of morality just to survive.  from wolves to crocodiles, and these animals have no awareness of a god or religion.  I can tell you trying to imagine some of the more horrible moral violations cause me emotional distress, but that has nothing to do with an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other, and many of the minor moral violations I learn through first hand experiences.  for a simple example, being made fun of made me feel bad, therefore I learned not to make fun of other people, not because a priest taught it to me. Consequences also prevent me from doing "bad" things.  Even though I want to walk into a bank and take a million dollars, I know I risk spending lots of time in jail.  Maybe I practice good morality because I don't want to be remembered as a bad person, especially since I believe my memory is all that carries on after I die.  I take more comfort that people would remember me as a good person instead of a mean asshole. 

As I said before, I have zero fear of punishment or judgement from a supernatural being in the afterlife, not because I think I'm a good person, but because I don't believe it exists....at all. It's not a choice, you can't be afraid of the boogey man if you don't think he's real.  So fear of that kind of judgement definetly does not motivate me to do good, and the lack of belief in such things definetly does not motivate me to do bad.

Why does it have to be religion thats responsible for making me pull over and help someone with a flat tire?

OK, I'm not to sharp tonight.  What's the point?
 

They're all non-believers, many of which are known for great morals and intelligence.  I tried looking for examples of atheists known for having bad or no morals, but couldn't find any, so I'm wondering where this common religious assumption comes from, as well as the assumption that the progressional loss of religion in our country is responsible for the bad things that happen in it.  I've looked at countries that are almost 90% atheist and they seem to be doing pretty good, definetly not the zombie infested apocalyptic hells many of you seem to portray such countries as.

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Meelosh Said:
 MSA.... Lance Armstrong.... bad example. 

Oh snap!

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 Over time I learn right from wrong and will continue to learn.   A good part of that came from common sense in knowing what would be right and what would be wrong.  
We are intelligent enough to know what is right or wrong without being told.  Without reading about it.
At the same time these thoughts are enforce by many and mainly ones parents as one grows up.
My parents bring me to their faith also had a lot to do with the process.
I believe all have some kind of belief and faith.  We mature with it.
Without it I am not sure what the purpose of life would be.
Sometimes I am not sure what is right or what is wrong.  It is not all black and white.
My teaching, my faith, my understanding all help in deciding what direction I will go.
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 For me not to believe in something after this life on earth would be difficult.
There are things that have happen that strengths my belief in it and I do look forward to it.
However it can wait a few more years yet.
But not to believe in something that is good. I am glad that I have that faith to go on.
Life on earth is too short.  I got a lot of living to do after I die.
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We are intelligent enough to know what is right or wrong without being told. Without reading about it.

Your getting close to my thoughts, but you could even leave out intelligence.

Multispecies I can tell by your answer your a good person.  I think you would be a person we would all consider a good friend.  I don't think it takes "religion" either, but close. 

I would like people to seriously consider the question where does our sense of right and wrong come from.  Many have answered our need for it, but not really our source for it.   This isn't something I want to offend anyone about, or have a big argument, but I want to stir thought. 

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Plainsman Said:

We are intelligent enough to know what is right or wrong without being told. Without reading about it.

Your getting close to my thoughts, but you could even leave out intelligence.

Multispecies I can tell by your answer your a good person.  I think you would be a person we would all consider a good friend.  I don't think it takes "religion" either, but close. 

I would like people to seriously consider the question where does our sense of right and wrong come from.  Many have answered our need for it, but not really our source for it.   This isn't something I want to offend anyone about, or have a big argument, but I want to stir thought. 

thats because no one has the answer. my answer would be from my parents, friends and family like multi said before. not once going to church when i was a young pup did i learn right from wrong. (havent been to church since i was 12 except for weddings/funerals). they push beliefs from a book. not everyday life. everyday life the pastor would refrain back to the bible and compare. that mean we learn right from wrong from the bible. well ive never read it and i know right from wrong. i could not tell you once verse, quote,ect from it. never will be able to. cuz ill never read it.  im sure you could ask everyone on this site your question and get 10 different answers. we obviously dont all have the same beliefs so answers will be different. IMO

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Plainsman Said:

We are intelligent enough to know what is right or wrong without being told. Without reading about it.

Your getting close to my thoughts, but you could even leave out intelligence.

Multispecies I can tell by your answer your a good person.  I think you would be a person we would all consider a good friend.  I don't think it takes "religion" either, but close. 

I would like people to seriously consider the question where does our sense of right and wrong come from.  Many have answered our need for it, but not really our source for it.   This isn't something I want to offend anyone about, or have a big argument, but I want to stir thought. 

Evolution.

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BTR, does evolution teach us to kill our own babies, or just the ones we dont want, gender, deformed, stuff like that. Hitler quoted nature will select the strongest. Who selects the unborn baby to die.

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this is a picture of men with real morals not a bunch of actors and celebs who gives a shit what they do.jolie, pitt and nickalson ya their real pillars of the comunity.  Plus half those dinks on the other picture would just assume to take away our guns, fishing and hunting.  Glad i got to live as i was a mistake 33 years ago and my son was a oops but i guess with what i was taught you live with your decisions and not punish some one else best one i have ever made.  I guess that is me doing what i believe is the "right" thing

 Adn

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Plainsman, are you refering to the same place elephants and alligators get their morals from?  Because if you think its something supernatural I have to disagree (of course)  a dog has no self awareness of itself among the universe, it has zero spirituality or knowledge of religion, but it does have a good concept of right and wrong.

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I laugh every time I hear an agnostic or athiest say "God Damn" or "Jesus Christ."  You do know there's a commandment that says not to do this right?  Why not say "Bill Damn"  or "John Smith" instead?  Seriously?  Why take the lords name in vain?  It's because that's what the devil wants us to do.  There's only ten commandments, this one is probably the quickest and easiest the break...satan knows that..he's here too you know.

Someone once told me that the only reason they say these things today is because it just something that's always been said, just tradition...well this is one tradition that sure has held the test of time.  I don't see too many people wearing cod pieces any more!  Things wear out over time..for some "unknown" reason, this one doesn't seem to want too....hmmmm...

I'll tell you that the fact that  you are tempted to say "Jesus Christ" in vain ought to be concerning to some of you who don't beleive.  Seriously, try saying something else instead for a while and see if it sticks...but I'll be you'll come back to it because that's just the way the devil wants it.

For the record, I break this commandment daily as well and am not proud of it.  The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

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