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multi-species-angler's picture
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 well next time you see me say "gosh bless you", so I don't get darned to heck.

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Is there a shot like Lutalyse for people so these bad mothers can just self medicate at home.  Then its just between them and God....no dragging the rest of society down with to their level of morality.

I say to hell with that pot o' gold.

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ggenthusiast Said:
Is there a shot like Lutalyse for people so these bad mothers can just self medicate at home.  Then its just between them and God....no dragging the rest of society down with to their level of morality.

cyanide would work

 Adn

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One thing to say on this one!

Can't wait to take my first grandchild fishing!! 

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multi-species-angler Said:
  Let what slide, I didn't make it up, I'm married catholic, I sat through the classes, my wife and I are going to hell for using birth control.

As far as stats go, a roll in the hay once a day for a year or two starts to widdle away at that 99% effective, and i don't know about you, but condoms break...often.  am I saying abortion is the answer, no, just that its not as simple as telling people these 2 or 3 "solutions" will prevent unplanned pregnancy.

Multi, were you raised Catholic, or did you just marry a Catholic?

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 " What difference does it make" HC

Db

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multi-species-angler Said:
Plainsman, are you refering to the same place elephants and alligators get their morals from?  Because if you think its something supernatural I have to disagree (of course)  a dog has no self awareness of itself among the universe, it has zero spirituality or knowledge of religion, but it does have a good concept of right and wrong.

Ok you guys are boggling my mind with stupidity.... Morality isn't attained through evolution. Morality is a learned behaviour regardless of where it is learned. Morality isn't created by a need of our populace survive and flourish. Think about it for two flippin' seconds. Our world is reaching it's full capicity for mankind, now would nature dictate that those that our more "fit" to eliminante those that are less fit. Essentially all species are wired to protect their ability to reproduce, therefore natural law would conclude that those with the power would eliminate others in an effort to create more oppurtunity for their own offspring. Many good examples can be seen on a livestock farm: When pigs are farrowing you must get the sow to a protective farrowing crate or often times other sows will eat the piglets as they are born. Another example: Your sweet lil farm cat has babies, and a stray tomcat comes through finds these kittens and kills them in order to bring the mother into estrus so he can mate with her passing on his DNA.

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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 Yes your first grandchild. That is what life is about and why life is precious.db

Db

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multi-species-angler Said:
Plainsman, are you refering to the same place elephants and alligators get their morals from?  Because if you think its something supernatural I have to disagree (of course)  a dog has no self awareness of itself among the universe, it has zero spirituality or knowledge of religion, but it does have a good concept of right and wrong.

A dog has the sense of what pleases his master or what will or won't get his arse kicked or bit - right or wrong has zero to do with it.

You really think the dog is sitting there thinking "Oh boy, I so want that steak sitting on the counter, but eating it  wouldn't be fair to my master to eat it so I'll leave it alone"? Too funny.

 

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passiton Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
  Let what slide, I didn't make it up, I'm married catholic, I sat through the classes, my wife and I are going to hell for using birth control.

As far as stats go, a roll in the hay once a day for a year or two starts to widdle away at that 99% effective, and i don't know about you, but condoms break...often.  am I saying abortion is the answer, no, just that its not as simple as telling people these 2 or 3 "solutions" will prevent unplanned pregnancy.

Multi, were you raised Catholic, or did you just marry a Catholic?

I was raised human, sat through classes and passed tests to
"become" catholic.  So yes somewhere on paper it says I am catholic.  At one point my dads side of the family tried to get me confirmed Lutheran,
but I asked too many questions during the process and that church felt I wouldn't be a good member.

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guywhofishes Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
Plainsman, are you refering to the same place elephants and alligators get their morals from?  Because if you think its something supernatural I have to disagree (of course)  a dog has no self awareness of itself among the universe, it has zero spirituality or knowledge of religion, but it does have a good concept of right and wrong.

A dog has the sense of what pleases his master or what will or won't get his arse kicked or bit - right or wrong has zero to do with it.

You really think the dog is sitting there thinking "Oh boy, I so want that steak sitting on the counter, but eating it  wouldn't be fair to my master to eat it so I'll leave it alone"? Too funny.

Yes and humans are incapable of breaking rules or morals.  Why doesn't an egg eating snake eat its own eggs.

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multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
Plainsman, are you refering to the same place elephants and alligators get their morals from?  Because if you think its something supernatural I have to disagree (of course)  a dog has no self awareness of itself among the universe, it has zero spirituality or knowledge of religion, but it does have a good concept of right and wrong.

A dog has the sense of what pleases his master or what will or won't get his arse kicked or bit - right or wrong has zero to do with it.

You really think the dog is sitting there thinking "Oh boy, I so want that steak sitting on the counter, but eating it  wouldn't be fair to my master to eat it so I'll leave it alone"? Too funny.

Yes and humans are incapable of breaking rules or morals.  Why doesn't an egg eating snake eat its own eggs.

you can bet your ass it will eat other like snakes' eggs....

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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Plainsman Said:

We are intelligent enough to know what is right or wrong without being told. Without reading about it.

Your getting close to my thoughts, but you could even leave out intelligence.

Multispecies I can tell by your answer your a good person.  I think you would be a person we would all consider a good friend.  I don't think it takes "religion" either, but close. 

I would like people to seriously consider the question where does our sense of right and wrong come from.  Many have answered our need for it, but not really our source for it.   This isn't something I want to offend anyone about, or have a big argument, but I want to stir thought. 

C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" has insight into this and other logical questions we ask. It's a bit of a heavy read - but if you give it a chance it could change your life. It did mine.

CS Lewis In Mere Christianity dealt with the issue of fairness and judging people by the same standard:

Everyone has heard people quarrelling. Sometimes it sounds funny and sometimes it sounds merely unpleasant; but however it sounds, I believe we can learn something very important from listening to the kind of things they say. They say things like this: “How’d you like it if anyone did the same to you?”-”That’s my seat, I was there first”-”Leave him alone, he isn’t doing you any harm”- “Why should you shove in first?”-”Give me a bit of your orange, I gave you a bit of mine”-”Come on, you promised.” People say things like that every day, educated people as well as uneducated, and children as well as grown-ups. Now what interests me about all these remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man’s behaviour does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behaviour which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: “To hell with your standard.” Nearly always he tries to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard, or that if it does there is some special excuse. He pretends there is some special reason in this particular case why the person who took the seat first should not keep it, or that things were quite different when he was given the bit of orange, or that something has turned up which lets him off keeping his promise. It looks, in fact, very much as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behaviour or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really agreed. And they have. If they had not, they might, of course, fight like animals, but they could not quarrel in the human sense of the word. Quarrelling means trying to show that the other man is in the wrong. And there would be no sense in trying to do that unless you and he had some sort of agreement as to what Right and Wrong are; just as there would be no sense in saying that a footballer had committed a foul unless there was some agreement about the rules of football.

And as for evolution of "herd instinct" we developed to help each other while "evolving"...

CS Lewis on the idea that morality is nothing but instinct, taken from Book 1, chapter two, of Mere Christianity:

For example, some people wrote to me saying, "Isn't what you call the Moral Law simply our herd instinct and hasn't it been developed just like all our other instincts?" Now I do not deny that we may have a herd instinct: but that is not what I mean by the Moral Law. We all know what it feels like to be prompted by instinct-by mother love, or sexual instinct, or the instinct for food. It means that you feel a strong want or desire to act in a certain way. And, of course, we sometimes do feel just that sort of desire to help another person: and no doubt that desire is due to the herd instinct. But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you ought to help whether you want to or not. Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires-one a desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides which should be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them. You might as well say that the sheet of music which tells you, at a given moment, to play one note on the piano and not another, is itself one of the notes on the keyboard. The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys.

Another way of seeing that the Moral Law is not simply one of our instincts is this. If two instincts are in conflict, and there is nothing in a creature's mind except those two instincts, obviously the stronger of the two must win. But at those moments when we are most conscious of the Moral Law, it usually seems to be telling us to side with the weaker of the two impulses. You probably want to be safe much more than you want to help the man who is drowning: but the Moral Law tells you to help him all the same. And surely it often tells us to try to make the right impulse stronger than it naturally is? I mean, we often feel it our duty to stimulate the herd instinct, by waking up our imaginations and arousing our pity and so on, so as to get up enough steam for doing the right thing. But clearly we are not acting from instinct when we set about making an instinct stronger than it is. The thing that says to you, "Your herd instinct is asleep. Wake it up," cannot itself be the herd instinct. The thing that tells you which note on the piano needs to be played louder cannot itself be that note.

Here is a third way of seeing it If the Moral Law was one of our instincts, we ought to be able to point to some one impulse inside us which was always what we call "good," always in agreement with the rule of right behaviour. But you cannot. There is none of our impulses which the Moral Law may not sometimes tell us to suppress, and none which it may not sometimes tell us to encourage. It is a mistake to think that some of our impulses- say mother love or patriotism-are good, and others, like sex or the fighting instinct, are bad. All we mean is that the occasions on which the fighting instinct or the sexual desire need to be restrained are rather more frequent than those for restraining mother love or patriotism. But there are situations in which it is the duty of a married man to encourage his sexual impulse and of a soldier to encourage the fighting instinct. There are also occasions on which a mother's love for her own children or a man's love for his own country have to be suppressed or they will lead to unfairness towards other people's children or countries. Strictly speaking, there are no such things as good and bad impulses. Think once again of a piano. It has not got two kinds of notes on it, the "right" notes and the "wrong" ones. Every single note is right at one time and wrong at another. The Moral Law is not any one instinct or any set of instincts: it is something which makes a kind of tune (the tune we call goodness or right conduct) by directing the instincts.

By the way, this point is of great practical consequence. The most dangerous thing you can do is to take any one impulse of your own nature and set it up as the thing you ought to follow at all costs. There is not one of them which will not make us into devils if we set it up as an absolute guide. You might think love of humanity in general was safe, but it is not. If you leave out justice you will find yourself breaking agreements and faking evidence in trials "for the sake of humanity," and become in the end a cruel and treacherous man.

 

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multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
Plainsman, are you refering to the same place elephants and alligators get their morals from?  Because if you think its something supernatural I have to disagree (of course)  a dog has no self awareness of itself among the universe, it has zero spirituality or knowledge of religion, but it does have a good concept of right and wrong.

A dog has the sense of what pleases his master or what will or won't get his arse kicked or bit - right or wrong has zero to do with it.

You really think the dog is sitting there thinking "Oh boy, I so want that steak sitting on the counter, but eating it  wouldn't be fair to my master to eat it so I'll leave it alone"? Too funny.

Yes and humans are incapable of breaking rules or morals.  Why doesn't an egg eating snake eat its own eggs.

Why does a Tom cat eat kittens? Because it's decided to be naughty/bad? Too funny... again.

 

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I'd love to sit and argue but I'm busy today. :)

Argue with C.S. Lewis instead. Good luck, you'll need it.

 

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buckmaster81 Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
Plainsman, are you refering to the same place elephants and alligators get their morals from?  Because if you think its something supernatural I have to disagree (of course)  a dog has no self awareness of itself among the universe, it has zero spirituality or knowledge of religion, but it does have a good concept of right and wrong.

Ok you guys are boggling my mind with stupidity.... Morality isn't attained through evolution. Morality is a learned behaviour regardless of where it is learned. Morality isn't created by a need of our populace survive and flourish. Think about it for two flippin' seconds. Our world is reaching it's full capicity for mankind, now would nature dictate that those that our more "fit" to eliminante those that are less fit. Essentially all species are wired to protect their ability to reproduce, therefore natural law would conclude that those with the power would eliminate others in an effort to create more oppurtunity for their own offspring. Many good examples can be seen on a livestock farm: When pigs are farrowing you must get the sow to a protective farrowing crate or often times other sows will eat the piglets as they are born. Another example: Your sweet lil farm cat has babies, and a stray tomcat comes through finds these kittens and kills them in order to bring the mother into estrus so he can mate with her passing on his DNA.

learning is part of evolution. The reason the world is reaching its carrying capacity of people is because people use science. Science keeps people alive longer.

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Because his eggs taste like SHIT!!

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multi-species-angler Said:
  I was raised human, sat through classes and passed tests to
"become" catholic.  So yes somewhere on paper it says I am catholic.  At one point my dads side of the family tried to get me confirmed Lutheran,
but I asked too many questions during the process and that church felt I wouldn't be a good member.

So at what age did you "become" Catholic, and why did your dad's side try to turn you into a Lutheran?  Or were you baptized Catholic as a baby?

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To be honest, I replied with "Evolution." Mainly because I wanted to see Meatball's responce.

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BringingTheRain Said:
To be honest, I replied with "Evolution." Mainly because I wanted to see Meatball's responce.

u ever thought about not being a needler??

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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BTR, if evolution is survivial of the species, why do we kill unborn babies. is it because they are undesirable. Or we are trying to build a master race. Did evolution teach us to kill babies, or maybe we are selfish society. You and hitler would get along.

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Meatball Said:
BTR, if evolution is survivial of the species, why do we kill unborn babies. is it because they are undesirable. Or we are trying to build a master race. Did evolution teach us to kill babies, or maybe we are selfish society. You and hitler would get along.

Why does god allow people to do abortions? And the "god gave man free will" crap ain't gonna get you anywhere since god is ultimately responsible for everything that happens in this world.

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 why does a human mother drown her childeren in a bath tub? At least the tomcat has a logical reason, so the female will let him breed with her.  Believe it or not different animals have varying levels of morality.  Guy, I guarantee your dog weighed the consequences before stealing that steak off the table.

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buckmaster81 Said:

BringingTheRain Said:
To be honest, I replied with "Evolution." Mainly because I wanted to see Meatball's responce.

u ever thought about not being a needler??

Meatball Said:
BTR, you are a pile.

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On the subject of abortion, not really sure how I feel about it. I don't know if I would ever go through abortion or not if If I was a women. On the other hand, obvioulsy, no man or any other person, has the right to tell a women what she can or cannot do with or own body.

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multi-species-angler Said:
 why does a human mother drown her childeren in a bath tub? At least the tomcat has a logical reason, so the female will let him breed with her.  Believe it or not different animals have varying levels of morality.  Guy, I guarantee your dog weighed the consequences before stealing that steak off the table.

You are equating good/bad consequences with human self-awareness and morality?

It was just a random example - my lovely boy Royce would never do that. He's a "good boy". ; )

Weighing consequences is not the same as weighing good/bad in the moral sense like you intended in the original post I challenged you on.

Dogs DO NOT sit and ponder is this a good vs bad behavior like people do. No fricking way. They might ponder "can I get away with this?' and "is it worth the punishment", but they don't do the right thing simply for the sake of being good. No sir, it just doesn't happen.

 

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BringingTheRain Said:

Meatball Said:
BTR, if evolution is survivial of the species, why do we kill unborn babies. is it because they are undesirable. Or we are trying to build a master race. Did evolution teach us to kill babies, or maybe we are selfish society. You and hitler would get along.

Why does god allow people to do abortions? And the "god gave man free will" crap ain't gonna get you anywhere since god is ultimately responsible for everything that happens in this world.

Free will??

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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Without free will there would not be good nor evil. There would only "be".

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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 yeehaw... what a topic!  interesting points of view.  my personal hankering is that, at some point, abortion is akin to murder.  i ain't so sure what point that is.  i know my sister had a child at 23-24 weeks that is healthy as can be now 2 years later.  but, i also don't equate a fertilized egg with a human life.  cause that fertilized egg and that same cluster of cells after they have divided a few times ain't a whole lot different than the egg itself or the millions of little sperm i happen to get rid of quite often.  obviously, at some point, that group of cells develops a central nervous system, the ability to feel pain and a certain degree of consciousness and it is at this point that i would consider it a life in being.  where that point is, i have no idea... but, science says its right around 20 weeks cause we know at that point it has the full compliment of brain cells that an adult has and that the spinothalamic pathway is also present and u can see the fetus respond to outside stimuli as well... and the same science considers that fetus viable (able to survive outisde the womb w/ help) at about 24  weeks.  i don't agree with abortion for various reasons.  but, if they continue, i'd prefer to err on the side of caution and see abortions limited to only the first trimester (12 weeks)... but, that's just me.

question for you very hard core anti abortion folks:  what are your thoughts on the plan B or morning after pill... the one that keeps a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus?  or, if it exists, some other medication that would cause an already implanted egg to miscarry after only a few days to maybe a week?  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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guywhofishes Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 why does a human mother drown her childeren in a bath tub? At least the tomcat has a logical reason, so the female will let him breed with her.  Believe it or not different animals have varying levels of morality.  Guy, I guarantee your dog weighed the consequences before stealing that steak off the table.

You are equating good/bad consequences with human self-awareness and morality?

It was just a random example - my lovely boy Royce would never do that. He's a "good boy". ; )

Weighing consequences is not the same as weighing good/bad in the moral sense like you intended in the original post I challenged you on.

Dogs DO NOT sit and ponder is this a good vs bad behavior like people do. No fricking way. They might ponder "can I get away with this?' and "is it worth the punishment", but they don't do the right thing simply for the sake of being good. No sir, it just doesn't happen.

I think this is being made too complicated. I do good things or atleast i hope i do, because i enjoy it and in return makes me feel good.

I had a dog when i was young that pretty much did his own thing, a good dog, just wasnt constantly wanting attention. However when ever myself or my mom was sick, that dog would not leave the bed or couch or where ever you were, it was kinda weird. Same thing for the first few weeks after my mom had my little sister - dog would not leave the room. So what was that dog (Lucky was his name) thinking or not thinking? did he feel bad? how could he tell we were sick? Why was he so protective of my mom and my new born sister?

 serious question that i wanna get your take. Im not insinuating (sp.?) anything like a super power dog or such.

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

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