54,559,615

Pages

498 posts / 0 new
Last post
espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

 to add to my questions above.... how about frozen or even non frozen embryos brought into existence for fertilization treatments?  what should be done with the extra ones leftover after mom is successful at getting impregnated?  and before you answer... i believe by definition the fertilized egg and the resulting multi-cellular cluster is considered an embryo up until 8 weeks.  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

buckmaster81's picture
buckmaster81
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 2/9/03

I am not a big fan helping barren couples concieve children. There are plenty of children in the world that could use a good home.

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

Wags86 Said:

guywhofishes Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 why does a human mother drown her childeren in a bath tub? At least the tomcat has a logical reason, so the female will let him breed with her.  Believe it or not different animals have varying levels of morality.  Guy, I guarantee your dog weighed the consequences before stealing that steak off the table.

You are equating good/bad consequences with human self-awareness and morality?

It was just a random example - my lovely boy Royce would never do that. He's a "good boy". ; )

Weighing consequences is not the same as weighing good/bad in the moral sense like you intended in the original post I challenged you on.

Dogs DO NOT sit and ponder is this a good vs bad behavior like people do. No fricking way. They might ponder "can I get away with this?' and "is it worth the punishment", but they don't do the right thing simply for the sake of being good. No sir, it just doesn't happen.

I think this is being made too complicated. I do good things or atleast i hope i do, because i enjoy it and in return makes me feel good.

I had a dog when i was young that pretty much did his own thing, a good dog, just wasnt constantly wanting attention. However when ever myself or my mom was sick, that dog would not leave the bed or couch or where ever you were, it was kinda weird. Same thing for the first few weeks after my mom had my little sister - dog would not leave the room. So what was that dog (Lucky was his name) thinking or not thinking? did he feel bad? how could he tell we were sick? Why was he so protective of my mom and my new born sister?

 serious question that i wanna get your take. Im not insinuating (sp.?) anything like a super power dog or such.

People = Meal Ticket, Shelter, Companionship. We are no different. We love our kids - but only because it feels good. We don't love bad people because it doesn't feel good. You clearly mean something to your dog (they do love you) - but they do it because they feel like doing it, not because it's "a good thing to do".

It takes effort and an expressed desire (often going against instinct)  to do what's "right" i.e. to love your neighbor even when he is an a$$, to jump on a grenade to save a fellow soldier even though you want to go home to loved ones, to spank your child. Those things go above and beyond the "me" that feels good or pushes our warm fuzzy button and into what I call "good for good sake". Something that separates us from the animals.

 

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

People = Meal Ticket, Shelter, Companionship. We are no different. We love our kids - but only because it feels good. We don't love bad people because it doesn't feel good. You clearly mean something to your dog (they do love you) - but they do it because they feel like doing it, not because it's "a good thing to do".

It takes effort and an expressed desire (often going against instinct) to do what's "right" i.e. to love your neighbor even when he is an a$$, to jump on a grenade to save a fellow soldier even though you want to go home to loved ones, to spank your child. Those things go above and beyond the "me" that feels good or pushes our warm fuzzy button and into what I call "good for good sake". Something that separates us from the animals.



I still don't know what you're trying to say.  So higher levels of morals exist in higher levels and more intelligent life forms, thats obvious?  Are you saying higher levels of morals only come from religion?

Animals aside, I guess the real question here is where do you think my morals (if you think I have any) come from?

Meatball's picture
Meatball
Offline
Joined: 3/8/12

they come from God, because like or not you were created be Him.

Meatball's picture
Meatball
Offline
Joined: 3/8/12

By Him.

The Mantis's picture
The Mantis
Offline
Joined: 12/7/12

Evolution?   Evolution teaches us that the strong survive,  and the strong do what they want.   Abortion is slowing killing off the evolutionists because they do whatever they feel is right.   So as the evolutionists slowly try to wipe themselves out with small families and abortions,   Christians are keeping their babies and taking care of them.  Teaching them we didn't all come from monkeys,  that we have a purpose,  and certain moral values that cannot be ignored.   If only the strongest survive evolutionists are already proving they are weak.  

Romans: 1:21-25

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.  (evolution)

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 

BringingTheRain Said:

Plainsman Said:

We are intelligent enough to know what is right or wrong without being told. Without reading about it.

Your getting close to my thoughts, but you could even leave out intelligence.

Multispecies I can tell by your answer your a good person.  I think you would be a person we would all consider a good friend.  I don't think it takes "religion" either, but close. 

I would like people to seriously consider the question where does our sense of right and wrong come from.  Many have answered our need for it, but not really our source for it.   This isn't something I want to offend anyone about, or have a big argument, but I want to stir thought. 

Evolution.

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

 

buckmaster81's picture
buckmaster81
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 2/9/03

Even if you are a non-believer how can you believe that a child doesn't deserve to live? By the same reasoning it should be fine to kill the mother if the mood strikes me...

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

The Mantis's picture
The Mantis
Offline
Joined: 12/7/12

 guywhofishes,  C.S. Lewis quotes 

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Plainsman's picture
Plainsman
Offline
AMATEUR
Joined: 6/19/03

multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Ooooofffffff multi how can you come to the conclusion that God thinks evil things are good? 

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 

buckmaster81 Said:
Even if you are a non-believer how can you believe that a child doesn't deserve to live? By the same reasoning it should be fine to kill the mother if the mood strikes me...

wich non believer here said he was pro choice?

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

Plainsman Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Ooooofffffff multi how can you come to the conclusion that God thinks evil things are good? 

By reading the bible.

so you mean to tell me humans have always had the same morals given to us by god, we have always had the same interpretations of right & wrong, good & bad?  so we used to kidnap, buy and sell other people, we knew it was bad and against god, but still did it anyway.

by the way, slavery is just one of thousands of examples of bad things the majority of humans saw acceptable through history.

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

 for the life begins at conception folks:  embryos for fertilization treatment sitting frozen in a medical facility?  plan b morning after pill that prevents a fertilized egg from implanting up to a few days after the fertilzation?  sort of got one answer from buck... but, not really an opinion on what to do with the existing embryos.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

Shweedel's picture
Shweedel
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 12/21/11

Multi.  The bible isn't meant to be taken literally. Look how long ago it was written..  It is meant to teach lessons and the history of Christianity. 

multi-species-angler Said:

Plainsman Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Ooooofffffff multi how can you come to the conclusion that God thinks evil things are good? 

By reading the bible.

so you mean to tell me humans have always had the same morals given to us by god, we have always had the same interpretations of right & wrong, good & bad?  so we used to kidnap, buy and sell other people, we knew it was bad and against god, but still did it anyway.

by the way, slavery is just one of thousands of examples of bad things the majority of humans saw acceptable through history.

Shweedel's picture
Shweedel
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 12/21/11

 I find plan B just a good as murder, same with embryos sitting within a medical facility espringers

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

 

Shweedel Said:
 I find plan B just a good as murder, same with embryos sitting within a medical facility espringers

understandable cause i get the "life begins at conception" train of thought... but, a follow up then... do you think those treatments shouldn't even be performed?  and/or what would you propose be done with the extra embryos?  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

i think christian conservatives are really doing themselves a disservice by trying to rid the world of abortion.  generally speaking people who feel very strongly about having abortions are the people who mock you for religion and condone liberalism.

i say jump on board and praise them for it.  you dont really want them raising yet another generation of irritating liberal tards do you?

buckmaster81's picture
buckmaster81
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 2/9/03

I guess it might be sappy but I believe in protecting the vunerable and voiceless.....

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

espringers Said:
 

Shweedel Said:
 I find plan B just a good as murder, same with embryos sitting within a medical facility espringers

understandable cause i get the "life begins at conception" train of thought... but, a follow up then... do you think those treatments shouldn't even be performed?  and/or what would you propose be done with the extra embryos?  

I posted a simalar scenario earlier no one commented on.  what if a husband and wife are doing this kind of procedure to have children of their own, and all the embryos placed inside the mother are succesful, and will pose a high risk of death for her and some of the babies if  6 or 7 of these embryos are allowed to go full term. 

buckmaster81's picture
buckmaster81
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 2/9/03

multi-species-angler Said:

espringers Said:
 

Shweedel Said:
 I find plan B just a good as murder, same with embryos sitting within a medical facility espringers

understandable cause i get the "life begins at conception" train of thought... but, a follow up then... do you think those treatments shouldn't even be performed?  and/or what would you propose be done with the extra embryos?  

I posted a simalar scenario earlier no one commented on.  what if a husband and wife are doing this kind of procedure to have children of their own, and all the embryos placed inside the mother are succesful, and will pose a high risk of death for her and some of the babies if  6 or 7 of these embryos are allowed to go full term. 

I don't believe they should have done that procedure in the first place....and I have already said that...

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

Tacoman's picture
Tacoman
Offline
Joined: 2/13/06

 I aint got time fo sucking babys out of the womb with a vacuum and people trying to make me think the way i was brought up is a hoax,  I just aint got time for dat...  

buckmaster81's picture
buckmaster81
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 2/9/03

Enslow Said:
 I aint got time fo sucking babys out of the womb with a vacuum and people trying to make me think the way i was brought up is a hoax,  I just aint got time for dat...  

                   ^ This is AWESOME!^

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

BringingTheRain's picture
BringingTheRain
Offline
Joined: 1/5/10

Plainsman Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Ooooofffffff multi how can you come to the conclusion that God thinks evil things are good? 

Well, he is responsible for evil.

espringers Said:
 

Shweedel Said:
 I find plan B just a good as murder, same with embryos sitting within a medical facility espringers

understandable cause i get the "life begins at conception" train of thought... but, a follow up then... do you think those treatments shouldn't even be performed?  and/or what would you propose be done with the extra embryos?  

If that is how Shweedel thinks, then I hope he hasn't ever spanked the monkey

Plainsman's picture
Plainsman
Offline
AMATEUR
Joined: 6/19/03

multi-species-angler Said:

Plainsman Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

So god used to define slavery as good, but not anymore?  God used to define decorating our trees with black people as good, but now its bad?

Ooooofffffff multi how can you come to the conclusion that God thinks evil things are good? 

By reading the bible.

so you mean to tell me humans have always had the same morals given to us by god, we have always had the same interpretations of right & wrong, good & bad?  so we used to kidnap, buy and sell other people, we knew it was bad and against god, but still did it anyway.

by the way, slavery is just one of thousands of examples of bad things the majority of humans saw acceptable through history.

I thought we already plowed this ground.  Anyway, people have always been evil since the fall of mankind.  We are by nature enemies of God. 

Those that think we have free will may be interested in reading Luther's explanation of "Bondage of the will".

gst's picture
gst
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 3/12/09

multi-species-angler Said:
Its not such a simple answer, all social animals have forms of morality just to survive. from wolves to crocodiles, and these animals have no awareness of a god or religion.

Plainsman, are you refering to the same place elephants and alligators get their morals from?  Because if you think its something supernatural I have to disagree (of course)  a dog has no self awareness of itself among the universe, it has zero spirituality or knowledge of religion, but it does have a good concept of right and wrong.

Wolve, crocodiles, elephants, alligators have morals?????  You do know the Lion King is a fairy tale right?

mor·al

[ máwrəl ]

 

  1. involving right and wrong: relating to issues of right and wrong and to how individual people should behave
  2. derived from personal conscience: based on what somebody's conscience suggests is right or wrong, rather than on what rules or the law says should be done
  3. according to common standard of justice: regarded in terms of what is known to be right or just, as opposed to what is officially or outwardly declared to be right or just

    mor·al (môr l, m r-) adj. 1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character

    So multi are you suggesting these animals have the capacity to be concerned that their actions are right? 

    And yes I have read some of Professor Marc Bekoff's theories. Have yet to see any of the hard proof you science guys always claim is so necessary to beleive anything though.

    Biologists have also observed a female Rodrigues fruit-eating bat in Gainesville, Florida, helping another female to give birth by showing the pregnant female the correct birthing position – with head up and feed down. 

    I mean a fruit bat flying in or crawling to mimic how another bat  is positioned being stretched to her having the "morals" to want to show the other bat how to give birth properly is a bit of a stretched "theory"  on animals having morals. 

    At least our "morals" keep us from eating our young to get the female back in heat.
     

     

gst's picture
gst
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 3/12/09

multi-species-angler Said:
 why does a human mother drown her childeren in a bath tub? At least the tomcat has a logical reason, so the female will let him breed with her.  Believe it or not different animals have varying levels of morality.  Guy, I guarantee your dog weighed the consequences before stealing that steak off the table.

So you are saying the dog that will sit at the table all day and never touch the steak has beter morals and the actual ability to determine that by taking that steak his "companion" may go hungry and experience stomach cramps that lead to pain and will have to take the time to cook himself another meal whereby the time he spends with his children will be lessened making his life less complete?  So that is why he does not steal the steak? 

Or has he simnply been conditioned to a dominant command repsonse better than the other dog.

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 where is the mention of god in that definition, and you accuse non believers of asking for proof when religion refuses to supply evidence.

gst's picture
gst
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 3/12/09

guywhofishes Said:
Whether a dog is being good or bad is defined by his master. Nobody is there to make such definitions for a coyote, right? Are coyotes thinking about good or bad? If not, why does a dog?

A person being good or bad is defined by their Master too. If not, then we're no better or worse than a coyote. We just exist.

Ishta.

Ah but everyone knows that coyotes are evil.
 
Where do you think the low down no good coyote phrase came from?

I wonder if that coyote would steal that steak?
 
Apparently they simply have no morals.

Pages