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gst Said:

It's All Good Said:

Very interesting thread.  Multi- you're a patient person.   Researched-based (i.e. evidenced-based) decision making is becoming more and more prevalent in our society.  It is the standard in many professions, including the medical field.  When a person goes to the doctor for an ailment, the physcian does not refer to an antiquated book written hundreds of years prior for diagnosis and treatment.  The most recent, scientifically tested, methods and treatment are utilized.   Can you imagine if pharmaceutical companies were not forced to repeatedly test medications to provide a standard of EVIDENCE of their effectiveness?

I would be curious to know how many of you that have been arguing with Multi (Mantis?)  trust your physician and hope he/she relies upon science and research-based treatment  versus how many of you still rely upon other interventions (faith-based healing?)?  If you do rely on modern medicine, do you question or argue with your doctor as to validity and reliability of the research behind the treatment they intend to administer? 
 

Can you point to one person that is in this discussion that has claimed science is not a valuable thing or effective in finding answers to complex problems that make peoples lives much better?

I can only speak for myself and my involvement in this thread in that there are things even science can not explain. Perhaps eons from now science will know the answer, perhaps it never will simply because there is not a scientific answer that exists.

And therein lies my basis for faith. My life is better because I have faith that something more awaits me than rotting into a peice of organic matter when I die.  I beleive that it is this something that helps me guide my life to make choices at the end of the day I can look in the mirror and be content I made. I do not beleive anyone else has to have this faith to bea good person, it si simply a choice I make. Choose to do something similar or choose that path multi takes in matters little to me unti someone condemns why someone has faith as baseless, black magic void of evidence.

But I am curious about the alligator morals claim.

You actually owe your life to science. Religion, not so much. Religion might make you feel better about yourself, but science keeps you alive.

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Science and religion are two diferent things??? Say it aint so Joe.

Bringin I will be the first one to admit I know far less about religion than many others. If you have followed along, many times I have spoke to faith rather than religion.

There is a big difference you do not seem to realize in your hatred of religion.

Man uses many tools to commit evil science or religion the outcome is the same.

 

I don't hate religion. I just think it's, I don't know, kind of silly?

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deflection, you mean how you've asked me about alligators having morals over and over and over again to deflect the questions I've asked you, to provide evidence that contradicts anything I have posted so far, on this thread.

we will have the alligator discussion after you present your case to the past topics.

through this whole thread you have done nothing but blurb out random bullshit questions and comments and have yet to participate and any real discussion, question answering, question asking, or prividing evidence about the discussed topics.  The few topics I have been discussing have nothing to do with your religion and proving it right or wrong, I have been defending attacks on science.

you called me a jackass and an asshole, I missed what your opinion of me had to do with this, but hey you usually do bring a special level of inteligence to these discussions.

Now, until you post some real evidence and peer reviewed data contradicting the few items I initially tackled and spent so much time on providing data and evidence for, I'm not about to go 10 pages deeper for you to just deflect and move on to some other questions or pointless comments.

Not that I don't like pointless comments, but it would help if yours were funny.

so, if you wish to continue to engage in conversation with me on this thread you'll have to post some evidence that contradicts the evidence I provided for the following.

1. atheists have no morals
2. the grand canyon was not formed by the colorado river over 5.5 million years
4. evolution is not science

otherwise call me a poopy head that thinks he knows everything and be on your way

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DirtyMike Said:
You're right, and believing that some bearded guy created sections of this world for six days and propped his feet up in the seventh is so easy to digest mentally.  

guywhofishes Said:
You evolution folks are hopeless. I asked how the simplest life forms came into existance and all I get is "you give something enough time and it randomly gets into the incredibly complex form of being able to reproduce and start evolving.".
Really? That's all you got? Is there a shred of evidence how evolution was able to get from inanimate non-reproducing chemicals to a living cell with complex code guiding the trillions of reactions/functions necessary for its continued existance and its reproducing another copy of itself?

Even a theory as to how the billions of reactions happened without genetic code guiding them? Any theory at all? (Beyond" it was a one in a million billion trillion chance but enough time goes by it HAD to happen"?

If that's your only answer then explain why there aren't other life forms on the moon, mars, etc. using other elements instead of carbon as the base? Surely enough time has passed, not?

haha.

SHORTHAIRSRUS Said:
I cant read all of your pages --- but to the evolution bangers ------

your missing one thing --- GOD GAVE MAN  A SOUL

I dont know when it happened or how --- but he blessed a creature and it became man .  My dog is very smart but it doenst have what i have.

END OF STORY

God more than likely doesn't exist. And if he doe's, he's got some questions to answer.

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When scientists tested a drug on a Jew, it was to find out what possible benefit or more likely harm the drug could do.... The reason for the torture was answers to questions or just to torture... Science was the tool used to achieve that goal not the reason for doing it. When folks killed in the name of or because of their religion, the religion and its taught beliefs were the exact reason for the act. There is a difference.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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you really think that one day a species was born with 2 fully functional wings (a steering wheel)?

Please reread what I wrote, because it was just the opposite.  I explained that evolution is supposed to occur incrementally.  If something is beneficial to the species it's retained in the genetic code.  So using a car instead of an animal (actually I was thinking single cell)  I asked why would it retain a wheel when it has no frame, motor, transmission etc.  There would be no benefit to a single wheel right?  Please no wheel barrow comments.

I went through the whole thing in college, and have seen many of the sites within the United States (yes Grand Canyon included).  For example the fossils and geology along the Missouri where it breaks out of the mountains in Montana.   Those records take us back to pre continental drift and the great continent referred to as  Gondwana. Of great interest is the road over the Big Horn Mountains at Powder River Pass.  It has the historic record from current day to three billion years labeled along the road as you travel.  

 I studied all of the stages of  man and although Java man was interesting I found  Lois and Marry Leakey's study in the Olduvai Gorge, and the discovery of Zinjanthropus the most interesting.

The bottom line is I found the Bible more believable.  I look at all the science and although I had to work within the frame work of it I have always believed there is a time line problem.  In the end I believe the history presented in the Christian Bible and science will find themselves with the very same conclusion.

Someone asked about doctors and if I believe them.  No, not all the time.  I gave a reason also.  They told my father after his first heart attack that Mazola Corn oil would extend his life.  Remember the "we now know" statement I made?  Like we now know the earth is not flat we also now know that hydrogenated vegetable oils are as bad or worse than butter.

I wish I could find the statistics that talked about doctors.  It had to do with how many thousand more deaths were caused by malpractice than guns and cars combined.

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Its like a big train wreck... I can't stop looking... And everytime I turn around I see something I new.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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multi-species-angler Said:
deflection, you mean how you've asked me about alligators having morals over and over and over again to deflect the questions I've asked you, to provide evidence that contradicts anything I have posted so far, on this thread.

we will have the alligator discussion after you present your case to the past topics.

through this whole thread you have done nothing but blurb out random bullshit questions and comments and have yet to participate and any real discussion, question answering, question asking, or prividing evidence about the discussed topics.  The few topics I have been discussing have nothing to do with your religion and proving it right or wrong, I have been defending attacks on science.

you called me a jackass and an asshole, I missed what your opinion of me had to do with this, but hey you usually do bring a special level of inteligence to these discussions.

Now, until you post some real evidence and peer reviewed data contradicting the few items I initially tackled and spent so much time on providing data and evidence for, I'm not about to go 10 pages deeper for you to just deflect and move on to some other questions or pointless comments.

Not that I don't like pointless comments, but it would help if yours were funny.

so, if you wish to continue to engage in conversation with me on this thread you'll have to post some evidence that contradicts the evidence I provided for the following.

1. atheists have no morals
2. the grand canyon was not formed by the colorado river over 5.5 million years
4. evolution is not science

otherwise call me a poopy head that thinks he knows everything and be on your way

Multi, it seems you easily confuse things. I missed where I claimed atheists have no morals, I missed where I made claims about the Grand Canyon, and I missed where I made claims that evolution is not science.

If you wish to hold those that made those claims accountable for doing so, fine, from the start, I have only been curious why you have such an angst against religion or faith that a higher power exists. My references to "jack ass" and "asshole" were simply a response to your admission you simply have to point out the flaws in others beleifs, and using the manner in past threads tha you have gone about that. As I said, recently you have been much more civil and less insulting in your comments now over past threads so perhaps there is something to this evolution/morals deal!

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 much harm has been inflicted in the name of flawed science : global warming 

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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espringers Said:
When scientists tested a drug on a Jew, it was to find out what possible benefit or more likely harm the drug could do.... The reason for the torture was answers to questions or just to torture... Science was the tool used to achieve that goal not the reason for doing it. When folks killed in the name of or because of their religion, the religion and its taught beliefs were the exact reason for the act. There is a difference.

 

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buckmaster81 Said:
 much harm has been inflicted in the name of flawed science : global warming 

you tell em Green Bastard! And rub some chicken grease on their glasses while you're at it!

 

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espringers Said:
When scientists tested a drug on a Jew, it was to find out what possible benefit or more likely harm the drug could do.... The reason for the torture was answers to questions or just to torture... Science was the tool used to achieve that goal not the reason for doing it. When folks killed in the name of or because of their religion, the religion and its taught beliefs were the exact reason for the act. There is a difference.

Do you thik it mattered to the Jew?

The point was people "use" different things for evil, science or religion.

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Professor : You are a Christian, aren’t you, son ?

Student : Yes, sir.

Professor: So, you believe in GOD ?
...
Student : Absolutely, sir.

Professor : Is GOD good ?

Student : Sure.

Professor: Is GOD all powerful ?

Student : Yes.

Professor: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn’t. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?

(Student was silent.)

Professor: You can’t answer, can you ? Let’s start again, young fella. Is GOD good?

Student : Yes.

Professor: Is satan good ?

Student : No.

Professor: Where does satan come from ?

Student : From … GOD …

Student : From … GOD …

Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

Student : Yes.

Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it ? And GOD did make everything. Correct?

Student : Yes.

Professor: So who created evil ?

(Student did not answer.)

Professor: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?

Student : Yes, sir.

Professor: So, who created them ?

(Student had no answer.)

Professor: Science says you have 5 Senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son, have you ever seen GOD?

Student : No, sir.

Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?

Student : No , sir.

Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD? Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?

Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t

Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD? Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?

Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.

Professor: Yet you still believe in Him?

Student : Yes.

Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?

Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.

Professor: Yes, faith. And that is the problem Science has.

Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Professor: Yes.

Student : And is there such a thing as cold?

Professor: Yes.

Student : No, sir. There isn’t.

(The lecture theater became very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There was pin-drop silence in the lecture theater.)

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?

Student : You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, well you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?

Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man ?

Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Professor: Flawed ? Can you explain how?

Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going.)

Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor. Are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

(The class was in uproar.)

Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?

(The class broke out into laughter. )

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable.)

Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.

Student : That is it sir … Exactly ! The link between man & GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.

Now multi,I know this isn;t and answer to how the Grand Canyon was formed or why some lizards fly while some do not. It is simply probably for me the best explaination of faith and it's importance not only inn religion but science as well.

I go to the doctor because I have "faith" that because of what he learned from science he will be able to help me with my sickness or what is broken. I go to the Lord because I have "faith" I have learned from religion that he will help me to heal what I bring to him in concerns of my soul or broken spirit.

Just how it is for me.

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I've been following this and find it interesting. 

I dont know how we came to be; other than we are here we came from something.

People blast the theories of the Big bang theory and creationism.

I will throw a little gas on the fire now.

Anyone who believes the earth is 10,000 years old with the overwhelming amount of evidence it is way older than that needs to open thier eyes a little wider.  according to the bible god created the earth in 7 days.  now think about this how do we know how long one of gods days are.  maybe one of gods days is a million years in our eyes.  If you have proof that he did it in one of our weeks show me the proof and i will believe.  You have faith that he did and that is it no more.  This belief is a theory then.  but you have faith without proof. 

You can take the bible at its word, believe it, have faith that it is true, and live your life according to it.  There is nothing wrong with this.  But when someone challenges this belief people defend it emphatically but refuse to have a genuine discussion and not admit to themselves that they could be wrong about it all.  What if it is actually jewish belief we all should be holding and not christianity.  There are all kinds of arguements you can make for every different religion which includes aithiesm.  Maybe there is nothing after death technically even an athiest believes in thier belief that there is no god. 

As far as the rest of the creation theories They are theories.  no proof either only educated guesses.  Who says that some part of all of them could be true or false.

I dont believe that a person that lives a good life and treats others well but does not believe in god will go to hell (if there is a hell).

I stand on the belief that I believe in something but I dont necessarily know what it is that I believe and have faith in....God whoever or whatever he is or isnt.  I know a little wishy washy but these are the things that I think that people should ponder a little and admit that we will more than likely never have all the answers.

You can blast at me all you want I probably wont respond anymore on this topic

Just the ramblings of a person living among persons   

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gst Said:

espringers Said:
When scientists tested a drug on a Jew, it was to find out what possible benefit or more likely harm the drug could do.... The reason for the torture was answers to questions or just to torture... Science was the tool used to achieve that goal not the reason for doing it. When folks killed in the name of or because of their religion, the religion and its taught beliefs were the exact reason for the act. There is a difference.

Do you thik it mattered to the Jew?

The point was people "use" different things for evil, science or religion.

nope... i am 100% certain it didn't matter to the jew.  i was just chiming in on the discussion you guys were having about people killing people "in the name of science" and "in the name of religion".  i guess it was my take that when people kill they aren't doing it "in the name of science"... they are doing it with another goal in mind, whether it be to answer a question or just to torture, and the science is the tool not the reason.... a lot like guns are the tool and not the reason.  on the other hand, many a folks have killed over the years because they think their religion is directing them to do so (at least that's what they claim anyways).

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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gst, well said. i already know the answer you will receive from multi on this. i have asked him to prove that his wife and children love him and i am still waiting for his answer to prove that they do.

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gst Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
 WRONG scientists and researchers always have doubt, this is what keeps them testing and looking for new evidence all the time.

And I think that is what people ar sugesting here multi is that you condemn others for their "faith" yet you can not provide absolute "evidence" that mankind eveloved from a single cell organism that crawled out of the slime pit without having just as much "faith" in the scientific "theories" that claim it.

I must admit you have gotten noticably less condescending and arrogant in your comments about religion and that is appreciated.

But still there seems to be an over powering need to condemn those who's faith allows them to beleive something different than you.

 

 Holy crap gabe....to hear call someone else arrogant and condescending is one of the most ironic things I have read in well......forever!

If god didn't want us to eat animals....he wouldn't have made them out of food.

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Chargers Said:
gst, well said. i already know the answer you will receive from multi on this. i have asked him to prove that his wife and children love him and i am still waiting for his answer to prove that they do.

its funny how religious folks always ask for proof, but have no evidence to back up their own arguments.  I have loads of evidence my wife and kids love me, and thats what I originally asked you to supply for your claims, but instead of providing any evidence you just keep saying, yeah well first prove to me your wife loves you.  which, your right, I can't prove it in your eyes, but I can show you lots of evidence, or you could ask her if you're really that interested in knowing.

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 To the non-believers: do you think Christianity is just a huge hoax? Would that even be possible? Would a group of people be able to pass down stories for millions of people to believe thousands of years later all over the world?

I find it interesting that MSA is always so passionate about this topic of religion/faith/God/science in general. Why do you feel the need to convince everyone there is no God?

For me personally there is just too many unknowns for there not to be a higher power.

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 P.s. I was gone for a week on vacation and just got back. My wife is getting sick of me not responding to her while my eyes are glued to my iPad! I just read quickly through 11 pages and probably missed a lot and have not watched videos yet

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espringers Said:
 

gst Said:

espringers Said:
When scientists tested a drug on a Jew, it was to find out what possible benefit or more likely harm the drug could do.... The reason for the torture was answers to questions or just to torture... Science was the tool used to achieve that goal not the reason for doing it. When folks killed in the name of or because of their religion, the religion and its taught beliefs were the exact reason for the act. There is a difference.

Do you thik it mattered to the Jew?

The point was people "use" different things for evil, science or religion.

nope... i am 100% certain it didn't matter to the jew.  i was just chiming in on the discussion you guys were having about people killing people "in the name of science" and "in the name of religion".  i guess it was my take that when people kill they aren't doing it "in the name of science"... they are doing it with another goal in mind, whether it be to answer a question or just to torture, and the science is the tool not the reason.... a lot like guns are the tool and not the reason.  on the other hand, many a folks have killed over the years because they think their religion is directing them to do so (at least that's what they claim anyways).

Isn;t that goal furthering their "science" by gaining more knowledge from the evil action they engaged in? 

tools. used by people to justify their actions.

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 its just hard to believe with the unbelievable complexity of which the universe and everything that exists within it did not have some kind of divine design.  this statement multi is my evidence that god exists. i don't buy that by pure chance a bunch of hot molecules, atoms, etc. just happened to fall into place, resulting in the complex world we live in today. its too hard for me to believe that for the ability for life to exist is just luck/chance. with the amount of precision that is needed to simply allow the human body to function without taking into consideration the effects of the world surrounding the body is something i cannot believe was not designed. i.e. evidence that God exists.

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bowhunter_24 Said:
 To the non-believers: do you think Christianity is just a huge hoax? Would that even be possible? Would a group of people be able to pass down stories for millions of people to believe thousands of years later all over the world?

I find it interesting that MSA is always so passionate about this topic of religion/faith/God/science in general. Why do you fheel the need to convince everyone there is no God?

For me personally there is just too many unknowns for there not to be a higher power.

Do you think scientology is a hoax?

I'm not trying to prove there is no god, in fact I'm always looking for evidence to support that one god or religion might actually be more possible than the rest.

I havnt been trying to prove anything against or wrong about religion on this thread.  I have been defending some ridiculous accusations about things there are massive amounts of evidence to support.  

And still, dozens of guys chiming in to hear themselves talk, but not one person defending or providing evidence to support earlier claims that...

Nonbelievers have no morals
The grand canyon was not formed by a river in 5.5 million years
Evolution is bad science

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 Non believers may have morals, but those morals certainly didn't come from a pure lineage of non believers, if at all. They say "I got them from my parents". Well, where'd their parents get them from? And their parents and so on and so forth? Did a textbook guide to morals just drop out of the sky one day for non believers to follow? Or did it derive from RELIGION?



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multi-species-angler Said:
 

bowhunter_24 Said:
 To the non-believers: do you think Christianity is just a huge hoax? Would that even be possible? Would a group of people be able to pass down stories for millions of people to believe thousands of years later all over the world?

I find it interesting that MSA is always so passionate about this topic of religion/faith/God/science in general. Why do you fheel the need to convince everyone there is no God?

For me personally there is just too many unknowns for there not to be a higher power.

Do you think scientology is a hoax?

I'm not trying to prove there is no god, in fact I'm always looking for evidence to support that one god or religion might actually be more possible than the rest.

I havnt been trying to prove anything against or wrong about religion on this thread.  I have been defending some ridiculous accusations about things there are massive amounts of evidence to support.  

And still, dozens of guys chiming in to hear themselves talk, but not one person defending or providing evidence to support earlier claims that...

Nonbelievers have no morals
The grand canyon was not formed by a river in 5.5 million years
Evolution is bad science

Multi, for an evolutionist, one would think you would better understand the effects of previous threads besides just "this thread" in why people respond the way they do.

You have a bit of history on these religion based threads.

And given that history some people simply are curious as to why you so adamantly debunk religion and faith based ideals.

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Pickeral Tamer Said:
 Non believers may have morals, but those morals certainly didn't come from a pure lineage of non believers, if at all. They say "I got them from my parents". Well, where'd their parents get them from? And their parents and so on and so forth? Did a textbook guide to morals just drop out of the sky one day for non believers to follow? Or did it derive from RELIGION?

The same place alligators got theirs.

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Chargers Said:
 its just hard to believe with the unbelievable complexity of which the universe and everything that exists within it did not have some kind of divine design.  this statement multi is my evidence that god exists. i don't buy that by pure chance a bunch of hot molecules, atoms, etc. just happened to fall into place, resulting in the complex world we live in today. its too hard for me to believe that for the ability for life to exist is just luck/chance. with the amount of precision that is needed to simply allow the human body to function without taking into consideration the effects of the world surrounding the body is something i cannot believe was not designed. i.e. evidence that God exists.

you're right, it is hard to believe at first, but to me, a statement is not evidence, it is the opinion of the person who made it. and after seeing.............

millions of fossils, continental drift, the geological mechanics of this planet, observed macro and micro evolution in our short lifetimes with the genetic sequences to back it up, thousands of newly discovered planets, newly discovered particles, every day new pieces to the puzzle that help give us a picture of what we are, how things work, and where we came from.  That is why I can't believe a book compiled of various stories gathered together 1600 years ago that explains how we got here.  especially when one takes into account the knowledge gathered about our place in the universe in the last 100 years.  I think the bible is just a fuz out dated.  Think of what we have done in one really old mans lifetime.  In 100 years, think of the discoveries that have been made.

Don't take offense, your book isn't the only one I don't believe.  just as you don't believe the koran or dianetics, I don't either.  However, I think some of you would be more comfortable if I was muslim.

you mention designed as if to be speaking of creationism.  creationism comes up in court cases all the time, and it always loses, because it has no evidence.  it is the excuse for not understanding how evolution works and has been deemed a pseudo science by the global scientific community because it has no evidence, and it cannot be tested.  I can only give it credit as a hypothesis, and a weak one at that.

Yes, man kind has not proven how exactly life initiated on earth 3.5 billion years ago, but they are on the way.  So far the building blocks of genetic materials have been created in a lab and I see in the near future chemistry and biology having a defined point where one becomes the other.  but just because we don't know something doesn't mean we throw our hands in the air and say a supernatural being did it and give up the search.

its ok to not know, thats what keeps us looking.

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 I don't think you guys have convinced each other yet. You should definitely try for another 24 pages or so. 

Is it impious to weigh goose music and art in the same scales? I think not, because the true hunter is merely a noncreative artist. Who painted the first picture on a bone in the caves of France? A hunter. Who alone in our modern life so thrills to the sight of living beauty that he will endure hunger and thirst and cold to feed his eye upon it? The hunter. Who wrote the great hunter's poem about the sheer wonder of the wind, the hail, and the snow, the stars, the lightnings, and the clouds, the lion, the deer, and the wild goat, the raven, the hawk, and the eagle, and above all the eulogy to the horse? Job, one of the great dramatic artists of all time. Poets sing and hunters scale the mountains primarily for one and the same reason--the thrill of beauty. Critics write and hunters outwit their game primarily for one and the same reason--to reduce that beauty to possession. The differences are largely matters of degree, consciousness, and that sly arbiter of the classification of human activities, language. If, then, we can live without goose music, we may as well do away with stars, or sunsets, or Iliads. But the point is we would be fools to do away with any of them. 

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In the near future?! Come on!

 

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 I have never heard the grand canyon argument. Christians believe it was caused by the great flood? I guess that is news to me. I'm not following the whole grand canyon thing. Disclaimer: I basically know nothing about the Bible.

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 Vestigial organs. Think about that. 


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Which "vestigial" organs were you referring to?

the Coccyx?

The tailbone is commonly thought of as the remnant of an actual tail, left over from a time before we evolved into humans. Some describe it as a "vestigial tail," meaning it has no real purpose in our bodies. However, it does serve as an attachment site for muscles and ligaments, which makes this a misnomer. There are several muscles that attach to the tailbone, including the gluteus maximus, the levator ani, the sphincter ani externis and the coccygeus. These muscles all play important roles in standing, bowel control and pelvic floor support.

Spurs on snakes,  what you would probably say are were legs at one time?  

The femur protrudes from the snake's body and is covered by a corneal spur, which resembles a spur or claw.[1] Males' spurs are generally longer and more pointed than females', and are used for clasping and tickling during courtship and mating,[2] as well as combat with other males in some species


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 Let me put that in simple terms.  Without a coccyx you couldn't take a crap.  

What they thought were once legs are used for pleasing the lady snakes and for war with other males..  


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 Or perhaps you would have no control of WHEN you take a crap.. Hahahaha

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 Were you talking about tonsils?   I was considering having mine removed and the doctor talked me out of it..  He said they now realize that they do serve a purpose and they only remove them if they are really causing you trouble..

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If your into the "bouncing" universe theory, think about this fact. The odds of life forming again as we know it after the "bounce" is 10 to the 10th power to the 23rd power. Or in laymans terms: A 1 followed by enough 0's sized in 10 point type to fill our Galaxy. We are here by Intelligent Design.
Particle Physics tell us that the Big Bang started from a single sub atomic particle accellerated to speeds and heated beyond anything our "science" can explain. First thought is where did that single particle come from? Second is what accellerated it?
We all know that "nothing equals nothing",  So that single particle couldn't speed up on its own as there wasn't any other matter to interact with it .
Then we can go a step further. If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into

God Knows!

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 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.   Romans 14:11

Think about that.  

 

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 thousands of newly discovered planets, newly discovered particles,

I apologize if I get this off track, but I could not pass up on this comment.  Columbus said he discovered America, and that's what our history books say too, but I'll bet a few thousand natives disagree.   My only point is don't count on them being newly discovered.  Someone else may have discovered them a long time ago.  The Universe is huge and to think we are the only ones in it is hard for me to believe.  So count me in with the group that thinks there are other life forms out there.  Nope, it doesn't conflict with the Bible for me.  I'm very certain the Bible doesn't tell us everything.  Watching people killing each other (in and out of the womb ) around the world makes me question intelligent life on this planet. 

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Plainsman... Now u got me completely perplexed. U don't believe in evolution or that the earth is 3.5 billion years old... But u believe there is life elsewhere in the universe and understand how almost infinitely vast it is? I can't understand how u can make those things jive in ur mind. So, I am starting to think I may have misread your take on evolution and/or what u meant when u mentioned that u think the bible and science will eventually agree on the age of the earth. Mind clarifying?

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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The Mantis Said:
 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.   Romans 14:11

Think about that.  

 

                                     OK

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Dear The Mantis,

take a f-ing joke. 

Sincerely,

everyone


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                                                "The Gamble"

There was a 17th century philosopher who put it this way to his unbelieving friend "If I believe in God and life after death and you do not, and if there is no God, we both lose when we die. However, if there is a God, you still lose and I gain everything."

Science wil never be able to explain God. God is far to complex for even science to understand. It would be like trying to explain the internet to an ant. Putting your faith in science(man) takes a whole hell of lot more faith in man than I'll ever have. You can show all the evidence you want to support your theory but there are just things that "man" can't explain and one of them is Life. Multi you have yet to give one example of how "life" originated and you'll never be able to, no one can. Your argument is mute until you can come up with an answer for that one question.

 

 "Play it Mr.Toot"

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Seven days of banter on this post, many stupid comments, a few actually revealing Truth. During these seven days 21,000 children have been executed in the US before they even gasped their first breath of air. 
Think about it, 21,000 dead human beings in a week.

Deep down inside all of us know that this isn't right!

Do the math, its an average of 125 baby deaths per hour!
Maybe we should be speaking up for the forever silenced voices of those 21,000 babies. Remember that was the subject of this post "In the Beginning".

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espringers Said:
Plainsman... Now u got me completely perplexed. U don't believe in evolution or that the earth is 3.5 billion years old... But u believe there is life elsewhere in the universe and understand how almost infinitely vast it is? I can't understand how u can make those things jive in ur mind. So, I am starting to think I may have misread your take on evolution and/or what u meant when u mentioned that u think the bible and science will eventually agree on the age of the earth. Mind clarifying?

Simple, I think there is much we do not know.  I would be surprised if we know more than 10% of the knowledge within our small sphere of earth, and less than 1% of that contained within the universe.  I respect science because that is what I did for 36 years, yet I also see it's shortcomings.  Often things mask the answers we look for.  In wetland studies we thought we had everything down to a knats butt, but then when we collaborated with hydrologists from Denver we began to get a much more realistic picture.  Suddenly we could understand the varying conductivity readings of wetlands only yards apart and their function in the system as hydrological recharge wetlands, flow through wetlands, or hydrological discharge wetlands.

Anyway, I have read Darwin, but I have also read Darwin's Black Box by MIchael J. Behe, and other books from both sides of the argument.  There are scientists who think they have all of the answers, and the there are scientists who think they have the answers, but keep searching as if they did not.  Those are the scientists that find new answers, new breakthroughs, new frontiers, while those who think they have all the answers do not, they simply have more arrogance than answers.

Then I also read the Bible.  Which one you believe is perhaps more like a gambler who wants to lay $100 on a bet.  Do you want bet on a higher probability and a greater return, or are you a real gambler and want to choose a lower probability with little to no return?

Since you enjoy science I'll tell you a little about wetland soil core samples.  I traveled to Denver to process some with people who developed the technique.  It's easy to look at the first few feet of silt because it has occurred since agriculture.  We know that by pollen, and specifically the pollen of Chenopodium album.  After that we look at ostracods, and further we look at phytoliths.  Sort of like our appendix plants store waste in specific cells.  Those cells last for thousand of years or more and are simply crystals, but in a specific shape for each species.  Going back far enough we find phytoliths from palm trees. 

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But, u understand the universe is unthinkably huge.... Yet u don't believe the earth is 3.5 billion years old? Where do u stand on the universe being 13-14 billion years old?

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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espringers Said:
But, u understand the universe is unthinkably huge.... Yet u don't believe the earth is 3.5 billion years old? Where do u stand on the universe being 13-14 billion years old?

I think that's beyond the ability for any of us to know for sure.  For example they use speed of light to test some of these things.  Does light travel at the same speed when we think of a round trip?  Some may think that is a ridiculous question, but like they say there are  no ridiculous questions.  Since we developed those first thoughts about the age of the universe we have discovered black holes.  People say gravity has no affect on light, but all of a sudden that has been turned upside down.  Black holes are black because even light can not escape their tremendous gravitational pulls.  They say that density becomes so great that a planet the size of earth pulled into it would be crushed to the size of a basketball.  This would happen because no space remains between the electrons of an atom.  So if we have a black hole one direction and we fire a laser the other it may start out at 186,000 mph, but slow to less, and speed up on the way back.  A star that we thought was a billion light years away may in fact be one thousand light years away if that light is traveling towards us, and also a black hole.  What is the limit light can accelerate to in the void of space when traveling towards a black hole?
As you can see I have a lot more questions than answers. 

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espringers Said:
But, u understand the universe is unthinkably huge.... Yet u don't believe the earth is 3.5 billion years old? Where do u stand on the universe being 13-14 billion years old?

Why? Do you believe it? Because scientists currently believe it? Do you personally have the data and evidence and intellect to understand how scientists came up with that number? Can you even fathom who's going to "check their homework" and decide if they are right or wrong? Not you I hope?

Can you think of other things the majority of scientists once believed but now do not?

I can, thousands of them. The chance that they are correct on matters as mysterious as the age of the universe are just about zero in my opinion.

I know this place is old... but how old? To believe current figures takes great faith on your part - and you can't argue that.

 

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