Al Gore will be excited!!!

Pages

422 posts / 0 new
Last post
espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

I would argue we are debating much more that biology. The evidence and study of evolution spans many scientific fields. And the testing of the theory of it is done in those same fields.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

Plainsman's picture
Plainsman
Offline
AMATEUR
Joined: 6/19/03

First you talk about "your undergrad" paper.  Which is and indication you did graduate work, but you didn't.  Then you start trying to teach way out of your field.  That's liberal.  Bringingtherain what's your background? 

Liberals often win debates with conservatives because they win the war of words.  Maybe I should say democrat instead of liberal.  You know how they say "our democracy" when we really are a republic.  It suckers the stupid thinking democrat = democracy sure I'll vote for that.  Then there is investment instead of tax.  Then simply good sounding words like progressive.  That also suckers people.  Theory has taken that same path.  Over the years those who want to convince people of things like evolution have tried to strengthen the term theory.  In the end however it's simply a hypothesis with support.  For evolution the support is thin. 

So have either of you guys been to Australia?

Oh BTR your video above the guy does have some of it wrong.  A theory doesn't describe how something happens, it describes how one or more people think it happened.  When the guy said it wasn't like an educated guess he was absolutely wrong because that is what it is and educated guess.  If not you could prove evolution and we would not be debating.  If you think it's more then like they say - prove it.  The evidence is no where near what you make it out to be.   You watch these guys on the discovery channel and sure they will act like they KNOW, but they are more bs than brains.  That's a disservice to science to present it as more factual than it is. 

Lets face it we can't jump  in our time machine and prove it or disprove it.  Some will believe it some will not.

So give me an answer on that Australia question OK?

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

I was not talking about "undergrad work". Purdy sure I said I "wrote a paper in undergrad". As far as I am concerned, I could have been a friggin communications major. The fact is the paper was paper was on that subject. In fact, the exact topic was law v theory. That's what's relevant. Not what my stupid major was or whether I did grad work.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

And Wtf do u mean "teach my way" out of my field? And support for evolution is not "thin". It has never been proven wrong.... Never. There is evidentiary support in the fossil record, DNA, cellular biology, skeletal structures, etc... And we even have documentef instances of it occurring in practically real time. I better just shit my mouth before I say something offensive. It doesn't take a liberal to believe in evolution and win a war of words with you.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

svnmag's picture
svnmag
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 11/3/02

 Nuke the Whales

bobkat's picture
bobkat
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 12/16/01

 No, Alpine, normally I don't go to church except for weddings, funerals or grandkids baptisms and confirmations!  I'm very respectful when I'm there, but because of my scientific background I can't buy into the metaphysical jumbo jumbo about a God, miracles, resurrection, the meaning of communion, and all that.  And yes, I've asked all kinds of theologians of every Christian Church about all these meanings of the stuff that parishioners read that they "believe!"  During the services!  And never have I EVER had a rational explanation.  Usually get a nebulous thing like "God knows but its difficult  to understand, and stuff like that!  Or, "it's deep!"  Or "Jesus died to absolve us of our sins!  He just DID, everybody knows that!"  HUH?   
I left church when I listened too a bishop,s sermon who was postalizing against curious doubters and secular humanists like  me?  no explanations just several times he stated "It is written in the bible, therefore it IS".   Take it or leave it, so I left it!
I've long maintained that if everyone followed the Golden Rule and 5/10 of the commandments,(leave out the  God ones) it't be a better world!

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

bobkat Said:
 No, Alpine, normally I don't go to church except for weddings, funerals or grandkids baptisms and confirmations!  I'm very respectful when I'm there, but because of my scientific background I can't buy into the metaphysical jumbo jumbo about a God, miracles, resurrection, the meaning of communion, and all that.  And yes, I've asked all kinds of theologians of every Christian Church about all these meanings of the stuff that parishioners read that they "believe!"  During the services!  And never have I EVER had a rational explanation.  Usually get a nebulous thing like "God knows but its difficult  to understand, and stuff like that!  Or, "it's deep!"  Or "Jesus died to absolve us of our sins!  He just DID, everybody knows that!"  HUH?   
I left church when I listened too a bishop,s sermon who was postalizing against curious doubters and secular humanists like  me?  no explanations just several times he stated "It is written in the bible, therefore it IS".   Take it or leave it, so I left it!
I've long maintained that if everyone followed the Golden Rule and 5/10 of the commandments,(leave out the  God ones) it't be a better world!

(we clearly need an icon with a mouth speaking out of both sides)

 

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

hey bobkat, I have some homework for you

go ask two gay guys why nature made it such that they are attracted to each and nature also makes them want to do very high risk of disease spreading things to each other

you know... since neither of those behaviors are supported by biological need as science would dictate (survival or reproduction) and you're curious. Do so in a respectful manner though.

Enjoy their suuuper-rational explanation.

Then come back to us and go on a rant about how tarded these two guys are... believing in something and engaging in something with no rational scientific explanation as to why their behaviors are abhorred by natural systems but they do it anyway. I'm sure you will log on to FBO and rant on their idiocy - since you're so fair and balanced in your wit.

OR you could eat crow and admit that not everything people do can be rationalized by science in order to be accepted by you. But since that would eliminate your excuse for being able to pick on the faithful - I'm guessing you won't attack them too.

Godspeed in your task.

 

johnr's picture
johnr
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 2/18/04

guywhofishes Said:
hey bobkat, I have some homework for you

go ask two gay guys why nature made it such that they are attracted to each and nature also makes them want to do very high risk of disease spreading things to each other

you know... since neither of those behaviors are supported by biological need as science would dictate (survival or reproduction) and you're curious. Do so in a respectful manner though.

Enjoy their suuuper-rational explanation.

Then come back to us and go on a rant about how tarded these two guys are... believing in something and engaging in something with no rational scientific explanation as to why their behaviors are abhorred by natural systems but they do it anyway. I'm sure you will log on to FBO and rant on their idiocy - since you're so fair and balanced in your wit.

OR you could eat crow and admit that not everything people do can be rationalized by science in order to be accepted by you. But since that would eliminate your excuse for being able to pick on the faithful - I'm guessing you won't attack them too.

Godspeed in your task.

Neat

Alpine's picture
Alpine
Offline
Joined: 1/13/12

 "And support for evolution is not "thin". It has never been proven wrong.... Never."

This statement is simply a poor attempt at debate on the issue you pursue, especially if you are trying to claim "science".  Bigfoot has never been proven wrong.  Ghosts living in the attic have never been proven wrong.  While you can maintain an argument for evolution, it in terms of mass development has never been proven right.

"but because of my scientific background I can't buy into the metaphysical jumbo jumbo about a God, miracles, resurrection, the meaning of communion.."

Ahhhh, your scientific background.  What, 8th grade science teacher at a government school??  Regardless, there are great minds of science from the past up to the present that are devout about their belief in God.  You confuse your "scientific background" with self serving arrogance.

" I've asked all kinds of theologians of every Christian Church about all these meanings of the stuff that parishioners read that they "believe!"  During the services!  And never have I EVER had a rational explanation. "

You are trying to equate the science man can understand with faith.  A common misconception.  What is your definition of "rational" ??  There is much in science that in the beginning does not appear to be rational.  There is much in science that at one time was thought to be rational but it turned out not to be.   Elementary science as understood by man can not begin to comprehend the majesty of the universe.  That is mans quest, and as many scientists admit, the chase always leads to God.

"I've long maintained that if everyone followed the Golden Rule and 5/10 of the commandments,"

This one is really sweet.  You are able in one fell swoop able to turn the 10 Commandments into the bobcat 5 !!   Priceless!

 

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

big difference... there isn't a shred of scientifically credible evidence supporting bigfoot or ghosts in your attic.  on the other hand there are mountains and mountains... literally... mountains with fossils in their rocks dating back hundreds of millions of years... of scientifically credible evidence that support evolution.  do you know why its been elevated to a "theory" and its no longer just a "hypothesis"... its cause its been tested and tested and supported by more evidence than you can fit in your local library... and nothing has ever been presented that proves it to be wrong.  

you guys have this problem whereby you don't trust anything that is science based if it conflicts with the words in the good book.  quit reading the bible so literally and the two things can co-exist.  i think its a sad reflection on things when a person spends his whole life as a biologist for the federal government and still refuses to give credibility to one of the most accepted scientific theories of all time and the process that has led to its acceptance simply because it contradicts some things in a book that was written 2000 years ago.  

Alpine Said:
 "And support for evolution is not "thin". It has never been proven wrong.... Never."

This statement is simply a poor attempt at debate on the issue you pursue, especially if you are trying to claim "science".  Bigfoot has never been proven wrong.  Ghosts living in the attic have never been proven wrong.  While you can maintain an argument for evolution, it in terms of mass development has never been proven right.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

espringers Said:
big difference... there isn't a shred of scientifically credible evidence supporting bigfoot or ghosts in your attic.  on the other hand there are mountains and mountains... literally... mountains with fossils in their rocks dating back hundreds of millions of years... of scientifically credible evidence that support evolution.  do you know why its been elevated to a "theory" and its no longer just a "hypothesis"... its cause its been tested and tested and supported by more evidence than you can fit in your local library... and nothing has ever been presented that proves it to be wrong.  

you guys have this problem whereby you don't trust anything that is science based if it conflicts with the words in the good book.  
quit reading the bible so literally and the two things can co-exist.  i think its a sad reflection on things when a person spends his whole life as a biologist for the federal government and still refuses to give credibility to one of the most accepted scientific theories of all time and the process that has led to its acceptance simply because it contradicts some things in a book that was written 2000 years ago.  

Alpine Said:
 "And support for evolution is not "thin". It has never been proven wrong.... Never."

This statement is simply a poor attempt at debate on the issue you pursue, especially if you are trying to claim "science".  Bigfoot has never been proven wrong.  Ghosts living in the attic have never been proven wrong.  While you can maintain an argument for evolution, it in terms of mass development has never been proven right.

wrong

 

Alpine's picture
Alpine
Offline
Joined: 1/13/12

I was addressing your exact quote as presented.  "It has never been proven wrong.... Never."   Your context had an imposed conclusion, and it was that conclusion that is wrong. 

Evolution is accepted theory.  How the Scab Lands were formed also once had accepted theory, at least accepted by some.  Until a new theory was formed, and laughed at.  40 years later that laughed at theory became accepted theory.  Which has now evolved to accepted fact. 

It's a nice theory.  As rocks tell us the geological history of this planet dating back billions of years I believe evolution in the way of divine guidance can work well with the bible within limits. Theory is often times nothing but faith based agenda.  The key word there is faith.  An agenda that in time is often proven wrong.

Man evolving from apes??  Missing links?   Hundreds of thousands of missing links, not just one.  Now that is why the word faith was invented.

 

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

i ain't so sure where you fall on the theory of evolution... so, explain to me then what the real reason is some of these folks don't support.  do you not think their skepticism has its roots in their faith?   

guywhofishes Said:

espringers Said:
big difference... there isn't a shred of scientifically credible evidence supporting bigfoot or ghosts in your attic.  on the other hand there are mountains and mountains... literally... mountains with fossils in their rocks dating back hundreds of millions of years... of scientifically credible evidence that support evolution.  do you know why its been elevated to a "theory" and its no longer just a "hypothesis"... its cause its been tested and tested and supported by more evidence than you can fit in your local library... and nothing has ever been presented that proves it to be wrong.  

you guys have this problem whereby you don't trust anything that is science based if it conflicts with the words in the good book.  
quit reading the bible so literally and the two things can co-exist.  i think its a sad reflection on things when a person spends his whole life as a biologist for the federal government and still refuses to give credibility to one of the most accepted scientific theories of all time and the process that has led to its acceptance simply because it contradicts some things in a book that was written 2000 years ago.  

Alpine Said:
 "And support for evolution is not "thin". It has never been proven wrong.... Never."

This statement is simply a poor attempt at debate on the issue you pursue, especially if you are trying to claim "science".  Bigfoot has never been proven wrong.  Ghosts living in the attic have never been proven wrong.  While you can maintain an argument for evolution, it in terms of mass development has never been proven right.

wrong

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

 alpine, to date, the theory of evolution has never been proven wrong... never.  show me otherwise.  if and when it does get proven wrong, it will go the same route as the original scab lands theory.  proven wrong by testing and the scientific process by the way.  the same process that supports evolution year after year and decade after decade.  if it does get proven wrong, guess what... i will accept it cause it will have been proven wrong by the same process.  until then, you are stuck with the fact that it is accepted.  you can't change the fact that it is one of the most accepted scientific theories of all time that is supported by more evidence in more scientific fields subjected to more research and testing over the course of over a century than almost any theory to have ever been formed in the history of science.  argue all you want... but, thems the facts jack.  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

johnr's picture
johnr
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 2/18/04

Here is some faith

57 Cent Church 

 



A little girl stood near a small church from which she had been turned away because it was 'too crowded.' 


'I can't go to Sunday School,' she sobbed to the pastor as he walked by. 


Seeing her shabby, unkempt appearance, the pastor guessed the reason and, taking her by the hand, took her inside and found a place for her in the Sunday school class. The child was so happy that they found room for her, and she went to bed that night thinking of the children who have no place to worship Jesus. 

Some two years later, this child lay dead in one of the poor tenement buildings. Her parents called for the kindhearted pastor who had befriended their daughter to handle the final arrangements. 

As her poor little body was being moved, a worn and crumpled red purse was found which seemed to have been rummaged from some trash dump. 


Inside was found 57 cents and a note, scribbled in childish handwriting, which read: 'This is to help build the little church bigger so more children can go to Sunday School.' 


For two years she had saved for this offering of love. 


When the pastor tearfully read that note, he knew instantly what he would do. Carrying this note and the cracked, red pocketbook to the pulpit, he told the story of her unselfish love and devotion. 


He challenged his deacons to get busy and raise enough money for the larger building. 


But the story does not end there.... 

A newspaper learned of the story and published It. It was read by a wealthy realtor who offered them a parcel of land worth many thousands. 

When told that the church could not pay so much, he offered to sell it to the little church for 57 cents. 

Church members made large donations. Checks came from far and wide.. 
Within five years the little girl's gift had increased to $250,000.00--a huge sum for that time (near the turn of the century). Her unselfish love had paid large dividends. 

When you are in the city of Philadelphia,  look up Temple Baptist Church, with a seating capacity of 3,300. And be sure to visit Temple University, where thousands of students are educated. 
 

Have a look, too, at the
Good Samaritan Hospital and at a Sunday School building which houses hundreds of beautiful children, built so that no child in the area will ever need to be left outside during Sunday school time. 

 
In one of the rooms of this building may be seen the picture of the sweet face of the little girl whose 57 cents, so sacrificially saved, made such remarkable history. Alongside of it is a portrait of her kind pastor, Dr. Russell H. Conwell, author of the book, 'Acres of Diamonds'. 

 
This is a true story, which goes to show WHAT GOD CAN DO WITH 57 CENTS. 

Neat

Wags86's picture
Wags86
Offline
Joined: 12/14/10

 

guywhofishes Said:

wrong

nice enslow-ism haha

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

 better yet... why don't you and plainsman get together and hold a conference with all of the other evolution skeptics around the world and put together your own scientific literature and present it to the liberal scientific community worldwide and have it subjected to decades of rigorous testing across a dozen scientific fields and see how your position holds up?  here is a hint for you though... leave the bible and christianity out of your literature... 

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

btw... the scab lands issue seems to actually support the scientific process don't you think?  its the perfect example of how something can be proven wrong after rigorous research and testing and how the scientific community is willing to change its stance on a certain issue when they are presented with credible findings based on said research and testing.  other than to support the idea that the "theory" could someday be proven wrong, the argument is pointless.  the fact is that someday any theory, including the theory of evolution, could be proven wrong.  but, until the day arrives, you are stuck with the fact that it hasn't been... to deny otherwise is to deny the very process that has brought mankind to the technological place it is today.  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

Alpine's picture
Alpine
Offline
Joined: 1/13/12

The Scablands prove only that science is often wrong.  Accepted scientific theory is often proven wrong.  Then, it's not accepted anymore.  La La  la La La.

You are making the wrong statement.  It's not important that evolution as a total explanation of life as we know it is a theory and that it has NEVER been proven wrong.  Evolution is a theory, and it has NEVER been proven right.  Not in the complete text of its "accepted" theory.   Some would say the Algorian global warming concept is accepted science in theory, even though there are mountains of scientific evidence to prove that theory wrong or in the least wide open for additional debate.

I completely believe myself that based on the record a bird for instance developed over much time a certain type of foot that enabled it to better grasp a certain type of branch.  I have little doubt of that.  To say all life has evolved from the same chicken, or is it egg, in the same manner is faith based theory.

 

cynical's picture
cynical
Offline
Joined: 10/27/04

For you non believers, how do you know that God didn't plant "evolutional" evidence just to see if you would question his work and existence?  You do realize God can do anything right?

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French."  Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
 -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

 

 

WormWiggler's picture
WormWiggler
Offline
Joined: 8/29/09

Which end of a worm is the butt?

                                                                                                                         

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

There is enough absolute wonder - and missing pieces and conflicting ideas - in BOTH the Bible and evolution that anybody who clings to either of them as flawless or absolute certainty is kidding himself or trying to fool others.

Both take great faith - but to stand up and say "it's a lock" about either is extreme.

Even Mother Teresa struggled in her faith. That's OK though, grace takes care of our humanity and He understands we're curious little buggers with deep flaws. Explain the logic in her behavior... yet look at what her FAITH did for the masses.

Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear.
— Mother Teresa to the Rev. Michael Van Der Peet, September 1979

 

 

johnr's picture
johnr
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 2/18/04

WormWiggler Said:
Which end of a worm is the butt?

tickle the middle and see which end laughs.

Neat

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

one takes faith by its very definition of what faith is... the other not so much.  and regarding the worm... the butt is the end that stinks and has shit coming out of it.... unless of course, it got drunk with its friends the night before... then, more likely than not, you are dealing with the mouth.  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

bobkat's picture
bobkat
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 12/16/01

 Ask me that question in a few years, guywhofishes!    I,d bet I''ll be able to give you a detailed explanation of your questions  in terms of neural pathways,  neurochemistry, endorphins, serotonin, ACH and a menu of now being discovered neurochemical s, supported by fMRA's, PET scans, and a bunch of other stuff that is still on the horizon now!

  I think you are sort of in the medical field, so I assume you are not as ill informed as you lead us to believe.  Either that or you are simply  taking a cheap shot at me again!  OR, you are one of the rare self described "scientist" who demonstrates no curiosity, open mindedness, innovation, and refuses to stay up to date on current scientific knowledge or thinking!  

Just trying to say that every religion has its good moral teachings, and even if you can't believe the God part of it, you  can respect them and take the  good stuff and leave the stuff you can't believe!  Nothing  wrong  with that, IMHO, though you self described moral conservatives seem to be incapable of understanding   anything like that!  For you guys, its 100% party line or  nothing!  
Reincarnation must be true!  Some of you must be reincarnated from the Middle Ages where that was the norm for thinking!   Try thinking out of the box for a change!  Science and progress moves on!   

bobkat's picture
bobkat
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 12/16/01

 Well Alpine, if you can't bring yourself to understand the concept of a "God" then that removes the five religious ones.
religious or not, the other five -don't kill, lie, steal, covet your buddy,s possessions, chase your neighbors wife, etc.  are IMHO applicable to everybody, whether religious or not or no matter what religion you follow or profess to follow!  
In other words, you don't have to be religious and believe the Faith stuff  to be a good, honest helpful, caring trustful citizen!  Trustful EXCEPT when telling fish stories, that is!  

Can't follow that?  Then you are either not too smart, OR simply totally closed minded and unable or unwilling o understand what I'm saying.  

bobkat's picture
bobkat
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 12/16/01

 BTW, WAY,WAY off the original topic!  This is a serious question!  Most of us have heard in church that "Jesus died and God allowed him to die and even sent him froM Heaven  to save us from our sins?" How does that work?  I've never understood it and have never had any kind of adequate explanation for this often repeated statement!  When I attend church it seems everybody but me knows what this means!
I thought about this during a service at a recent funeral and a confirmation service!  I sincerely have been trying to understand this since I spent every Sunday as a kid in Sunday school and church every Sunday till I quit in middle age!

Also, when the congregation reads the '"we believe" passage, it is always read from a book that  we believe in the "communion of the saints".   Respectfully what does this mean?  Help  me out here!
this is not meant to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I've seriously tried for years to get some kind of Explanation  to truly understand this!   
This is probably not the website to get enlightened, but no insult intended, we seem to have a lot of sincere Christians on here, so therefore at least some of them should know the answers to my 60 a 70 year old questions!

WormWiggler's picture
WormWiggler
Offline
Joined: 8/29/09

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:
Which end of a worm is the butt?

tickle the middle and see which end laughs.

sounds legit,  but I have been know to laugh so hard I shit my pants and laugh so hard I threw up,  so the question evolves to how hard to tickle your worm?

                                                                                                                         

Wednesday's picture
Wednesday
Offline
Joined: 6/9/04

 "For you guys, its 100% party line or nothing!"
 
Coming from a guy who's party held up Conservative group's 501 applications during election years and also gave 100s of them a high level of scruitiny.  Admittedly, it was targeted towards conservative groups.  I say, for YOU guys, it's 100% party line, or we'll silence you and stamp you out so no one has a chance to hear anything from you.  We'll then present ideas and cast anyone who disagrees as out of touch, or old school, ill thought, or racist.  Seeing some of this on this forum here; no one who appears to side with religion is saying that evolution isn't a possibility, or maybe even they way God went about creation; but anyone who thinks evolution is the law of the land emphatically denies the existance of God.  Tolerance by some, intollerance by others.  Right now, we are only a few steps away from individual people being outted for their beliefs and given undue focus by the same government that they have paid taxes for the existance of.  Facism.

Also, Plainsman is talking about the scientific method whereby a hypothesis is tested it and over time it can become a scientific theory.  The next step above that would be a scientific Law.  Few tested theories become Law...few.

Pages