Al Gore will be excited!!!

Pages

422 posts / 0 new
Last post
Wednesday's picture
Wednesday
Offline
Joined: 6/9/04

You do you're thing, I'll do mine.  I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just telling you what I believe.

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

svnmag's picture
svnmag
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 11/3/02

Al Gore covers Johnny Cash.  It is amusing:

http://youtu.be/OD0jeBhCjz0

 Nuke the Whales

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

multi-species-angler Said:
 gst is another modest man of wisdom who refuses to present his earth shattering evidence against evolution and claim his Nobel prize.

I don't need faith to know my shoes are tied, just like evolution, I can look and see for myself, I can touch the laces, I can untie and then retie them to be extra sure, I can the ask another person to look and tell me they are tied, then have them untie and retie my shoes.  That's how science works.

WRONG

The link below describes how science actually works quite often. Science is not some flawless discipline that magically avoids corruption.

Read that pdf (not that long). Then come back to us with a straight face and try once again to claim that "faith" or a person's "belief system" doesn't creep into every aspect of human activity - including (if not more so) in the evolutionary disciplines - where we're dealing with time spans that can't be tested or fossil records with questionable timing and huge gaps/divides that are waved away as "no big deal and we'll solve them eventually".

dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17444027/survivalOfTheFakest.pdf

And please don't claim (like bobkat) that I'm some bible-thumping dolt who doesn't understand science. I'm actually a fairly influential scientist in my own right, known for thinking outside the box  - and my novel inventions and insights are helping to clean up some of the nastiest crap-holes that mankind has managed to unleash on our little blue marble.

I work with EPA and other "scientists" every day who ALL have an agenda (their business, funding sources, innate hatred of other's beliefs, etc.) and to claim that belief systems somehow manage to be strained out of the conclusions we arrive at as scientists is ABSURD.

I had one scientist who was a good friend of mine who supported my work and we had good times partying at national and international conferences. He found out I'm a conservative Christian (he's uber-lib) and now he's a critic of my technology. Not my faith but my technology!

Coincidence? Ha ha ha... I don't think so. But I understand why he's changed - because everyone, even scientists, can't help but be influenced by our belief system. Mankind is wired that way - really really hard-wired to have a belief in SOMETHING bigger than ourselves. Gov't, science, God... just anything bigger than us that we need to pay homage to and "have faith in".

Hmmmm... I wonder why that is? It's almost as if somebody made us that way. CREEPY!

 

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 

Wednesday Said:
You do you're thing, I'll do mine.  I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just telling you what I believe.

And I'm telling you faith is not required to understand evolution, if you doubt it to be true you can go see it for youself, the evidence is not hidden.

I feel like I'm telling someone their shoe is untied and they keep responding with "I have faith that it is tied" and absolutely refuse to look and see for themselves. Look! Its untied! Just look for yourself! "Nope, I have faith that my shoe is tied tight". Facepalm

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

multi-species-angler Said:
 
Wednesday Said:
You do you're thing, I'll do mine.  I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just telling you what I believe.

And I'm telling you faith is not required to understand evolution, if you doubt it to be true you can go see it for youself, the evidence is not hidden.

I feel like I'm telling someone their shoe is untied and they keep responding with "I have faith that it is tied" and absolutely refuse to look and see for themselves. Look! Its untied! Just look for yourself! "Nope, I have faith that my shoe is tied tight". Facepalm

describe this evidence for me

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 guy, don't tell me evolution is a lie and how science works, don't pick one phrase out of 20 of my paragraphs and say "look, he's wrong" present your influential scientific self and your claims to the world, and I will wear a pink dress to your awards banquet as you collect the Nobel prize.

Arguing with me here is pissing in the wind, you're a scientist, I'm a flunky, go show the other scientists of the world how it really is.  I'm nobody and I have no rewards for you innovative thinking and new evidence.

WormWiggler's picture
WormWiggler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 8/29/09

I think God is a prankster, showing the brainiacs the goodies and watching them run around squealing.

                                                                                                                         

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 

severance Said:
 
multi-species-angler Said:
 
Wednesday Said:
You do you're thing, I'll do mine.  I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just telling you what I believe.

And I'm telling you faith is not required to understand evolution, if you doubt it to be true you can go see it for youself, the evidence is not hidden.

I feel like I'm telling someone their shoe is untied and they keep responding with "I have faith that it is tied" and absolutely refuse to look and see for themselves. Look! Its untied! Just look for yourself! "Nope, I have faith that my shoe is tied tight". Facepalm

describe this evidence for me

Dude really, I see you have the internet.....try Google, or better yet, visit some labs and scientists and ask questions till your throat hurts.  Go into the field and collect data and compare it to what others have gathered, observed, and tested, then let them observe and test what you have found.

One paragraph by me on fishingbuddy shouldn't be enough to eliminate your skepticism.  You need more, and there is lots of it out there on this subject.

Wednesday's picture
Wednesday
Offline
Joined: 6/9/04

A bit intollerant of my belief the way it sounds...while I accept your right to have yours.  Again, I'm not trying to convert you.  I'm just telling you what I believe.  I should add that I take no issue with you believe.  It's your right.  AS IT IS MINE, but it appears as though since I have a belief in God that my right to believe is taken away.  Hmmmm...seems as though I've hear of this before...oh yea there's a book somewhere that warns that people who believe will be critisized, pursecuted, cast as outsiders, etc.  Sounds like another prophesy come to fruition!

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

multi-species-angler Said:
 
severance Said:
 
multi-species-angler Said:
 
Wednesday Said:
You do you're thing, I'll do mine.  I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just telling you what I believe.

And I'm telling you faith is not required to understand evolution, if you doubt it to be true you can go see it for youself, the evidence is not hidden.

I feel like I'm telling someone their shoe is untied and they keep responding with "I have faith that it is tied" and absolutely refuse to look and see for themselves. Look! Its untied! Just look for yourself! "Nope, I have faith that my shoe is tied tight". Facepalm

describe this evidence for me

Dude really, I see you have the internet.....try Google, or better yet, visit some labs and scientists and ask questions till your throat hurts.  Go into the field and collect data and compare it to what others have gathered, observed, and tested, then let them observe and test what you have found.

One paragraph by me on fishingbuddy shouldn't be enough to eliminate your skepticism.  You need more, and there is lots of it out there on this subject.

why would google help? i would have to have faith in the legitimacy of the information it pointed me to?  you said i could "see" the information for myself.  where do i go "see" evolution?

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 

Wednesday Said:
A bit intollerant of my belief the way it sounds...while I accept your right to have yours.  Again, I'm not trying to convert you.  I'm just telling you what I believe.  I should add that I take no issue with you believe.  It's your right.  AS IT IS MINE, but it appears as though since I have a belief in God that my right to believe is taken away.  Hmmmm...seems as though I've hear of this before...oh yea there's a book somewhere that warns that people who believe will be critisized, pursecuted, cast as outsiders, etc.  Sounds like another prophesy come to fruition!

Your religion is of no concern or bother to me, and it has nothing to do with the current topic of "evolution, fact or fiction?". 

Tolerance or intollerance of your belief here (whatever that may be) is non existent in this discussion, I am indifferent toward whatever deity you worship, I would argue the same on this topic if you were Muslim, Hindu, catholic, or atheist

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 

severance Said:
 
multi-species-angler Said:
 
severance Said:
 
multi-species-angler Said:
 
Wednesday Said:
You do you're thing, I'll do mine.  I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just telling you what I believe.

And I'm telling you faith is not required to understand evolution, if you doubt it to be true you can go see it for youself, the evidence is not hidden.

I feel like I'm telling someone their shoe is untied and they keep responding with "I have faith that it is tied" and absolutely refuse to look and see for themselves. Look! Its untied! Just look for yourself! "Nope, I have faith that my shoe is tied tight". Facepalm

describe this evidence for me

Dude really, I see you have the internet.....try Google, or better yet, visit some labs and scientists and ask questions till your throat hurts.  Go into the field and collect data and compare it to what others have gathered, observed, and tested, then let them observe and test what you have found.

One paragraph by me on fishingbuddy shouldn't be enough to eliminate your skepticism.  You need more, and there is lots of it out there on this subject.

why would google help? i would have to have faith in the legitimacy of the information it pointed me to?  you said i could "see" the information for myself.  where do i go "see" evolution?

You obviously didn't read the rest of my response.  Don't be that way.  If you have an honest and true curiosity for how evolution works you would persue its evidence.

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

multi-species-angler Said:
 
severance Said:
 
multi-species-angler Said:
 
severance Said:
 
multi-species-angler Said:
 
Wednesday Said:
You do you're thing, I'll do mine.  I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just telling you what I believe.

And I'm telling you faith is not required to understand evolution, if you doubt it to be true you can go see it for youself, the evidence is not hidden.

I feel like I'm telling someone their shoe is untied and they keep responding with "I have faith that it is tied" and absolutely refuse to look and see for themselves. Look! Its untied! Just look for yourself! "Nope, I have faith that my shoe is tied tight". Facepalm

describe this evidence for me

Dude really, I see you have the internet.....try Google, or better yet, visit some labs and scientists and ask questions till your throat hurts.  Go into the field and collect data and compare it to what others have gathered, observed, and tested, then let them observe and test what you have found.

One paragraph by me on fishingbuddy shouldn't be enough to eliminate your skepticism.  You need more, and there is lots of it out there on this subject.

why would google help? i would have to have faith in the legitimacy of the information it pointed me to?  you said i could "see" the information for myself.  where do i go "see" evolution?

You obviously didn't read the rest of my response.  Don't be that way.  If you have an honest and true curiosity for how evolution works you would persue its evidence.

where would i pursue it?

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 search evolutionary research and travel to your nearest lab full of scientists, start asking questions.

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

multi-species-angler Said:
 search evolutionary research and travel to your nearest lab full of scientists, start asking questions.

how do i know these scientists would be credible?  and what is the nature of their evidence?

svnmag's picture
svnmag
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 11/3/02

Trouble is Multi,
 
The evidence supporting the Old Testament and the King James is hidden with great resolve.  "Ancient Aliens" on the History Channel is a good place to start.  It's intriguing to say the least; but the Lord is not a reptile.   

 Nuke the Whales

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 notice how no one is claiming evolution is false anymore....

Well deference....because they will let you look at and observe any evidence they have.

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

multi-species-angler Said:
 guy, don't tell me evolution is a lie and how science works, don't pick one phrase out of 20 of my paragraphs and say "look, he's wrong" present your influential scientific self and your claims to the world, and I will wear a pink dress to your awards banquet as you collect the Nobel prize.

Arguing with me here is pissing in the wind, you're a scientist, I'm a flunky, go show the other scientists of the world how it really is.  I'm nobody and I have no rewards for you innovative thinking and new evidence.

you sure talk tough science, but when challenged to respond to specific issues I have with major elements of your foundational principle (that science is open, honest, peer-reviewed, irrefutable, etc.) you throw a hissy fit and claim you're just a flunky and I should go talk to other scientists about it

I didn't think you'd be open-minded enough to give me the consideration you ask others to give you. You often display the same attitudes you despise in others. Gosh, you're like almost every other human on the planet in that regard.

"Hey, don't pick that one phrase out of 20 and tell me I'm wrong - even if I am." That's a lot like being told your shoes untied and refusing to admit it.

I'm not arguing for/against evolution. I've wrestled with it vs. my faith plenty and I remain confused because it an a$$load more complicated than I can grasp... so I cling to my guns and faith like a backwoods hick.

What I'm arguing with is your infantile belief in science's ability to police itself. YOU'RE WRONG.

And every time you spout that "science is nothing but fact" crap on FBO I will be there to remind you that you that you are wrong about science's incorruptibility because it is simply not the truth and not a fact. Truth and fact - the very thing you passionately cry for every time one of these topics comes up. You're simply wrong MSA - why so hard to admit it?

And that highlighted phrase. Great debate technique - way to keep it real.

 

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 

svnmag Said:
Trouble is Multi,
 
The evidence supporting the Old Testament and the King James is hidden with great resolve.  "Ancient Aliens" on the History Channel is a good place to start.  It's intriguing to say the least; but the Lord is not a reptile.   

Comparing the amount of evidence for evolution with the amount of evidence for ancient aliens?  I really don't know why I respond.....

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

yay!  its still going.  let's see if i can add without being a condescending prick... but, i wouldn't hold my breath.  lol.  

anyway... this is completely wrong plainsman  except for the very small % of dna that contains mutations, you are 50% mom and 50% pop.  since your parents are each 50% of each of their parents, you are also 25% each grandparent .  you are also 12.5% of each great grandparent because each grandparent is 50% of their parents... etc... minus mutations that occur in every generation and have a chance of occurring with every cell division... including the germ cells that give rise to the gametes that are mom's egg and dad's sperm

the % of cellular dna that contains mutations is actually way less than 1%.

the end effect of the mutations depends on where they occur in the DNA sequence and whether or not the mutation occurs in a germ cell or your run of the mill somatic cell.  


Plainsman Said:

Multispecies don't apply for a genetics job. I forget the exact breakdown, but if I remember it's 25% of each of your parents, 12.5% each set of grandparents and on down. So 50% parents, 25% all grandparents, 12.5 % all great-grandparents etc.

No evolution is not fact. If it were fact it would no longer be theory. That is so wrong I don't know where to begin. Fact???? Maybe you better let the scientific community know that.

finally, i think some of you that believe in Christ and not in evolution are taking this conversation wrong again.  nobody is telling you not to have faith or dogging that faith.  what is being said is that faith in one of the best tested scientific theories of all time is not equivalent to faith in your God... whether its the christian god, muslim god, budhist god, native american creator, etc... 

your faith in those things relies on very little if any actual evidence that can be put to any type of test.  and your Christ actually acknowledges this and asks you to believe without any evidence.  yes we know Christ walked the earth.  but, short of that, the only other evidence we have for him being the son of god, rising from the dead, healing the sick, etc... comes from tales passed down from generation to generation in the form of a book that was written by man... the first half of which was written and was part of a completely different religion who does not share the same belief about Christ being the son of god.  this is hardly comparable to the types of evidence we have for some of the most scientifically tested theories we have today... including evolution.  

i really don't think i should have to explain the difference.  but, i fully suspect a response from plainsman or gst asking me... "how do you know GW was the first prez if you never saw him?  how do you know australia exists if you have never been there?"  and somehow try and argue that those things are the equivalent of having faith that God exists.  if you can't see the flaws in these types of arguments, we are all just wasting our time.  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 back on topic:

Evolution happens, it is a fact, its observable, and it is supported by overwhelming evidence.

For those that claim it is not a fact and does not happen, present your contradicting evidence.

Faith:

I said it is not required, I didn't say it does not exist in science.  For example, Neil Degrasse Tyson tells me Pluto is X miles from earth, I have faith he is right because to my knowledge his claims have been right so far and they are all meticulously peer reviewed and supported by lots of evidence that corresponds to his claims. BUT! If I do not have faith in his claim, I can build my own instruments, telescopes, and probe and go check for myself.

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

 regarding the corruptability of science and scientists... of course they can be corrupt, lie, cheat, etc... for the sake of $, pride, fame, etc... they are human afterall.  however, more often than not, the corruption, lies, cheating, falsifying of information, etc... is eventually discovered by some type of peer review done by some other scientist.  unless a person successfully argues and convinces me that the worldwide scientific process is ripe with a conspiracy preventing the truth from eventually being exposed, i have trouble understanding how the lies or falsifications aren't and won't be eventually discovered and brought to the forefront by other skeptical and/or reputable scientists like guywhofishes.  

it happens all of the time in fact... some scientist comes out with some fandangled new discovery that gets touted for a short period of time.... and a year or two later another group of skeptical scientists comes forward to show it was all a load of bullshit.  that is the beauty of the scientific process... although fallible at times, it relies on evidence and peer review... with faith in religion... tis simply not the case.  that's why the world has so many different religious faiths still in existence today.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

Plainsman's picture
Plainsman
Offline
AMATEUR
Joined: 6/19/03

The evidence as some put it is a house of cards.  It's hypothesis built upon hypothesis.  There is no real proof, and it is not fact.  The person who said science is not infallible is correct.  I have watched it fail time after time.  The people who worship it are usually the ones removed from it.  I doubt there are many real scientists on here, but they think they are. 
My question about George Washington being our first president was not a comparison.  People can't even understand that.  My question was to see if you believed history.  I explained that, but people want to ignore the explanation.  We are sure Australia is there because we believe what people have said.  We know people who have been there.  Likewise secular historians witness to many Biblical facts.  However, I don't dispute evolution from a religious standpoint I dispute it from a scientific standpoint.  Yes you heard right, from a scientific standpoint.  I give it no more credibility than the tooth fairy. 

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 plainsman, wrong.

I never claimed science is fact, science is a method.  I stated evolution is a fact, and asked anyone who disagrees to present your case with evidence.  

Present your case plainsman, your Nobel prize awaits.

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

espringers Said:
 regarding the corruptability of science and scientists... of course they can be corrupt, lie, cheat, etc... for the sake of $, pride, fame, etc... they are human afterall.  however, more often than not, the corruption, lies, cheating, falsifying of information, etc... is eventually discovered by some type of peer review done by some other scientist.  unless a person successfully argues and convinces me that the worldwide scientific process is ripe with a conspiracy preventing the truth from eventually being exposed, i have trouble understanding how the lies or falsifications aren't and won't be eventually discovered and brought to the forefront by other skeptical and/or reputable scientists like guywhofishes.  

it happens all of the time in fact... some scientist comes out with some fandangled new discovery that gets touted for a short period of time.... and a year or two later another group of skeptical scientists comes forward to show it was all a load of bullshit.  that is the beauty of the scientific process... although fallible at times, it relies on evidence and peer review... with faith in religion... tis simply not the case.  that's why the world has so many different religious faiths still in existence today.

that's the point of that pdf I posted. Year after year the same fabrications - even after they are discovered and shown to be just that - are published in text books to be fed to young minds.

WHY??? Because the authors and publishers believe in the thoery so much that they are willing to spread lies through the scientific education system. There is something deeply disturbing about that kind of behavior and it casts a cloud on science as being so "above the fray".

And I get a belly full of those who treat science as though it's self-correcting as soon as deception is discovered. It often doesn't correct itself - for belief reasons!

Like it or not many evolutionists are also atheists and many carry a palpable disdain for the faithful. It's a natural urge so I understand why it happens. I have disdain for things I can't explain or rationalize.

I just can't handle those who hold up science as a lilly white discipline that can be flawed but quickly corrects itself. It's often far from it.

 

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

multi-species-angler Said:
 plainsman, wrong.

I never claimed science is fact, science is a method.  I stated evolution is a fact, and asked anyone who disagrees to present your case with evidence.  

Present your case plainsman, your Nobel prize awaits.

The gold standard of prizes


 

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

multi-species-angler Said:
 plainsman, wrong.

I never claimed science is fact, science is a method.  I stated evolution is a fact, and asked anyone who disagrees to present your case with evidence.  

Present your case plainsman, your Nobel prize awaits.

based on what evidence?

WormWiggler's picture
WormWiggler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 8/29/09

Multi, Esp

What is your review of the PDF presented by Guywhofishes?

                                                                                                                         

WormWiggler's picture
WormWiggler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 8/29/09

Riddle me this one:

Its raining.

I put my face out the window and it gets wet.  but how do I know what wet is?  Somebody told me.  Everything in your head has been "told" to you by someone,  whether it is a biology book, a bible, your granpa story on killing mice......

                                                                                                                         

Pages