Al Gore will be excited!!!

Pages

422 posts / 0 new
Last post
espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

nope.... the difference between the bible and the biology book is that i can go test the truthfulness of what is in the biology book if i choose to do so.  anyone can and thousands have.  with the bible... not so much.  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

espringers Said:
nope.... the difference between the bible and the biology book is that i can go test the truthfulness of what is in the biology book if i choose to do so.  anyone can and thousands have.  with the bible... not so much.  

true but how do you test evolution?

KurtR's picture
KurtR
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/16/07

I know that I evolve after a night of drinking budwieser the first couple pretty mild but after about twelve I am ready to burn this bitch down

 Adn

Alpine's picture
Alpine
Offline
Joined: 1/13/12

Evolution becomes nothing but  a straw man presentation in a way.

Evolution is fact, prove that it isn't!  One might say......

In what dimension of evolution are we talking about??   A bird over much time developing a foot that grasps a specific branch better?   A bird over much time that develops a thicker and stronger beak to bust clams up with?  An ungulate that develops a hoof that better distributes its own weight, over much time? 

Yes, that is evolution.

A man that has evolved from a monkey?  That is theory, that is not fact.  It is not even a widely accepted theory within scientific circles. 

You can shake hands with science?  That can be true, and man has shaken hands countless times with science that has then been proven to be untrue.  Man has shaken hands with fantasy in those cases.
Science is mans understanding of God.  Often times wrongly.  We can measure science.  Man then can pat himself on the back.  Faith can not be measured.  Man can not pat himself on the back.  Faith was never intended to be tangible, we do not have a God that towers over us and demands to be worshipped.  Faith is a gift, and yes you most assuredly can shake hands with it.  Not at all of course, if one is not willing to accept it.

 

jsthntn's picture
jsthntn
Offline
Joined: 2/27/07

 this thread sux

 "I'll show you where the bear sh**s in the woods!" ~ Dad
(I still have no clue what it means.)

"You're not really even my son." ~ Dad
(I still don't believe him.)

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

jsthntn Said:
 this thread sux

no this thread is entertaining. it gives multi a chance to claim scientific evidence supports his claims without offering any of this scientific evidence. you cant find a certain level of amusement in this?

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

severance Said:
 

espringers Said:
nope.... the difference between the bible and the biology book is that i can go test the truthfulness of what is in the biology book if i choose to do so.  anyone can and thousands have.  with the bible... not so much.  

true but how do you test evolution?

Hey severence your shoe is untied.

"no, I have faith that it is tied"

no really, look, it's untied

"how do you know its untied"?

just look man, its untied

"you can't prove its untied, how do I know you're not just trying to trick into looking at my shoes?"

And this is arguing evolution on fishingbuddy.

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

jsthntn Said:
 this thread sux

LOL

 

Alpine's picture
Alpine
Offline
Joined: 1/13/12

One of the great mathematicians and physicists the world has known was able to conceive a way to "measure"  faith in terms of probability and decision theory.  It is today known as Pascal's Wager.   It is rather long but worthwhile.  He, being not only a great man of science but a devout Christian, surmised faith in secular tones so the blind might understand.  

A simpler tone was set by what is known as Rubick's gamble.

It simply states that if you bet there is not a God, and you are right, you've won NOTHING.

But if you bet there is a God, and you are right, you win EVERYTHING.

This is put in secular risk/reward terms and it is not why we seek God or have faith. 

 

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

multi-species-angler Said:

severance Said:
 

espringers Said:
nope.... the difference between the bible and the biology book is that i can go test the truthfulness of what is in the biology book if i choose to do so.  anyone can and thousands have.  with the bible... not so much.  

true but how do you test evolution?

Hey severence your shoe is untied.

"no, I have faith that it is tied"

no really, look, it's untied

"how do you know its untied"?

just look man, its untied

"you can't prove its untied, how do I know you're not just trying to trick into looking at my shoes?"

And this is arguing evolution on fishingbuddy.

thats not the same. you simply have no evidence to support your claim so you are trying to equate an outrageous and irrelevant "example" as proof

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

severance Said:
 

jsthntn Said:
 this thread sux

no this thread is entertaining. it gives multi a chance to claim scientific evidence supports his claims without offering any of this scientific evidence. you cant find a certain level of amusement in this?

It is impossible for me to pass the physical evidence you demand between my internet connection and yours.

be more specific with your request and I can point you in the directions of more physical evidence than you can view and study in a lifetime.

Plainsman's picture
Plainsman
Offline
AMATEUR
Joined: 6/19/03

Religion only got into this global warming debate because someone could not pass up snide remarks.

So multi the Nobel prise is not for disproving something that can not be proven, but proving something that can not be proven.  The ball is in your court and you can not prove it because evolution is not fact.  Lets get the shoe on the right foot.  I have to prove nothing, you do.  If you can prove evolution your the first scientist in the world to do so.  Saying evolution is fact does not make it so.  No competent scientist would dare go so far as to say it's fact.  Perhaps at a coffee table, but you can be darn sure he would not put it in print unless incompetent. 

When people say it's fact I know they are not scientists.  If you have any respect for statistics you will take Pascal's Wager very seriously.  The chances of evolution being true are about the same chances that a new Porsche is going to suddenly appear in your living room with they keys in and engine running. 

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

Plainsman Said:
Religion only got into this global warming debate because someone could not pass up snide remarks.

So multi the Nobel prise is not for disproving something that can not be proven, but proving something that can not be proven.  The ball is in your court and you can not prove it because evolution is not fact.  Lets get the shoe on the right foot.  I have to prove nothing, you do.  If you can prove evolution your the first scientist in the world to do so.  Saying evolution is fact does not make it so.  No competent scientist would dare go so far as to say it's fact.  Perhaps at a coffee table, but you can be darn sure he would not put it in print unless incompetent. 

When people say it's fact I know they are not scientists.  If you have any respect for statistics you will take Pascal's Wager very seriously.  The chances of evolution being true are about the same chances that a new Porsche is going to suddenly appear in your living room with they keys in and engine running. 

wrong again

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

and I havn't brought up anything to do with religion

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

multi-species-angler Said:

severance Said:
 

jsthntn Said:
 this thread sux

no this thread is entertaining. it gives multi a chance to claim scientific evidence supports his claims without offering any of this scientific evidence. you cant find a certain level of amusement in this?

It is impossible for me to pass the physical evidence you demand between my internet connection and yours.

be more specific with your request and I can point you in the directions of more physical evidence than you can view and study in a lifetime.

give me the abridged version of evidence. or perhaps a couple of examples

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

a tiny shred of the available evidence

Now, this compilation of faces, Latin names, and periods of existence is proof of nothing.  you can have faith and trust that those who pieced together all the evidence to compile such a poster are right and true in their research. OR!...if you're skeptical and do not have faith that these people are right, you can travel the world  to all the various museums, universities, and research facilities and view the fossils and bones that these facial reconstructions were made from, you can bring your own radiometric dating equipment to double check the age of each to see that it corresponds with the patterns of evolutionary existence, you can even go and dig and look for your own bones just in case you have that much doubt, you can go to not just one but many labs working on DNA sequencing and study samples that show our relation to these species with the same methods used to show you're relations to closer family members.

Wednesday's picture
Wednesday
Offline
Joined: 6/9/04

Why would only some evolve?  If it's an inherit ability to evolve, why are there still apes and chimpanzees on the world today?  Did they stop evolving?  Or does evolution pick and choose which species or group within a species gets to evolve?  And if so, that would mean that not everything has the inate ability to evolve, right?

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

we share DNA traits with rats too but i dont see anyone claiming we evolved from rats. percentages dont mean anything.  

more importantly there isnt enough sample data available from 1000s of years ago to be of much value in terms of a conclusive answer. an educated guess.......absolutely. but not FACT.

you are genetically similar to a banana but i doubt that you believe your ancestors where grown on a tree


multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

Wednesday Said:
Why would only some evolve?  If it's an inherit ability to evolve, why are there still apes and chimpanzees on the world today?  Did they stop evolving?  Or does evolution pick and choose which species or group within a species gets to evolve?  And if so, that would mean that not everything has the inate ability to evolve, right?

very good questions and all of which have good answers.

To start, not all mutations (evolution) are visible, some completely different species look identical.

we did not evolve from chimpanzees, they evolved differently in a different group that branched off from a common ape like ancestor we share.

evolution does not pick and choose as much as nature does, sometime man picks and chooses which traits are passed on to change a specie.  take dogs for example, humans selected the desired traits from breeding wolves and now we have poodles.

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

severance Said:
we share DNA traits with rats too but i dont see anyone claiming we evolved from rats. percentages dont mean anything.  

more importantly there isnt enough sample data available from 1000s of years ago to be of much value in terms of a conclusive answer. an educated guess.......absolutely. but not FACT.

you are genetically similar to a banana but i doubt that you believe your ancestors where grown on a tree


 analysis of that DNA shows the difference in distance of relation between your cousin and a rat.

I claim that the process of evolution is a fact because it is observable.  we do not have 100% of the puzzle pieces to claim our exact 100% ancestry, but we do have a lot of it.

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

multi-species-angler Said:

severance Said:
we share DNA traits with rats too but i dont see anyone claiming we evolved from rats. percentages dont mean anything.  

more importantly there isnt enough sample data available from 1000s of years ago to be of much value in terms of a conclusive answer. an educated guess.......absolutely. but not FACT.

you are genetically similar to a banana but i doubt that you believe your ancestors where grown on a tree


 analysis of that DNA shows the difference in distance of relation between your cousin and a rat.

I claim that the process of evolution is a fact because it is observable.  we do not have 100% of the puzzle pieces to claim our exact 100% ancestry, but we do have a lot of it.

what about it is observable?

espringers's picture
espringers
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 7/25/07

Evolution means change... Not necessarily advanced change. The DNA of all organisms have the ability to change. It's usually just the beneficial changes that lead to change over the entire species. Or lead to an entirely new species in the situation where isolated populations exist.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

severance's picture
severance
Offline
Joined: 4/14/11

 

espringers Said:
Evolution means change... Not necessarily advanced change. The DNA of all organisms have the ability to change. It's usually just the beneficial changes that lead to change over the entire species. Or lead to an entirely new species in the situation where isolated populations exist.

but this doesnt prove the generally accepted concepts of man's evolution.  if neanderthals for example were a different species(seperate rather than an earlier form of man) then what came before homo sapiens?

jsthntn's picture
jsthntn
Offline
Joined: 2/27/07

 this thread rox

 "I'll show you where the bear sh**s in the woods!" ~ Dad
(I still have no clue what it means.)

"You're not really even my son." ~ Dad
(I still don't believe him.)

WormWiggler's picture
WormWiggler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 8/29/09

funny gifs

                                                                                                                         

bobkat's picture
bobkat
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 12/16/01

 Alpine!  Yes, the Apostles Creed!  I didn't call it that as I wasn't sure every denomination that uses it called it that as I've heard it in several denominations!  
Paying attention?  Unless you are some kind of minister or priest, its a no brainier that I've looked and looked at this and have asked all denominations for explanations, including theologians (my brother included) priests, ministers, etc. many of whom are personal friends that I've hunted, fished, rode hundreds of miles on my bicycle, sat around campfires with, etc.   I've heard the explanations like yours before, many times, and appreciate your efforts!  BUT, the bottom line is that it all hinges on "Faith" in something that IMHO cannot be seen, heard, measures or verified and therefore to me has noScientific  validity!  Sorry, but that's the way I've evolved from thinking about this stuff and questioning it over many years in many situations!
I respect anyone's personal beliefs and glad you have them!  The fact that mine and many others happens to differ hardly makes us unbelievers some kind of dratted "Liberal Ogres!"  Respect should go two ways, as it certainly does with the Christians that I've mentioned above!  We all agree to disagree and often have discussions about Faith, Belief, and Disbelief!  Tolerance of other's view is number one in my opinion!   

Plainsman's picture
Plainsman
Offline
AMATEUR
Joined: 6/19/03
 take dogs for example, humans selected the desired traits from breeding wolves and now we have poodles.
 

That's a perfect example of not changing as you think.  The DNA always contained the code for black labs, yellow labs, collies, etc.  Man simply selected the characters he liked as they showed themselves.

Like I said evolution is a religion.  As some have pointed out you will not change anyones religious beliefs.  Hence you will not stop multi from worshiping at the foot of Darwin. 

There are many good books that put evolution in perspective.  Try Darwin's Black Box by Michael J. Behe.  Then you will understand that saying evolution is fact is pure foolishness.  If it was science would have proved it to everyone's satisfaction.  You will find there is a strong biochemical challenge to evolution. 

 
The above pictures of priimitive men are more art than science.  They sit around a table and say because the bone protrudes here it indicates a muscle attachement.  Hence the high cheek bones of native Americans indicate they were mostly herbivourse.  Then they start drawing what their imagination tells them to.   The evidence presented on here so far I don't consider evidence at all.  No more than finding a cape with a big S on it and holding it up as evidence that Superman really does exist. 
bobkat's picture
bobkat
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 12/16/01

 "Salvation" is already bought and paid for!?!  HUH?  This is what I have failed to understand since I was old enough to go to Sunday school!   How does (did) that work?   Seems to be no rational explanation of this "FACT" that everyone in every church I've ever attended KNOWS, but I don't understand!  My IQ mus be way over on the left of the normal probability curve!  3x has suggested that many times.....LOL
SPIT ON YOUR BIBLE?   Them's almost fighting words.  I DO NOT and WILL NOT spit or denigrate any bible, Koran, Torah, Book of Morman or any other manuscript that any religion considers sacred!  If there is one thing from my personal Bobkat Religion that I ever wanted to ram down others throats it would be complete RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE and respect for other religions.  These anti Muslim pass along I see on websites and end up in my mail box are horrible, IMO!  if we all followed religious tolerance there'd be a lot less fighting and misery in this world today, and IMO pretty well EVERY religion propagates this to variable extent! 
Whenever I have gone with friends and acquaintances to various Christian Churches, Mosques, Buddhist Temples, Synagogues, I have complete respect for the believers.  A Caveat - some parts of synagogues, Mosques, Morman Temples, etc. are off limits to guys like me!  but don't talk to me about respect for other religions.  

multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 wrong again plainsman, youre on a roll today.  I suppose you also saw farenheight 911, and believe we never landed on the moon.  The book you mention is a hypothesis that lacks evidence, and even if you were able to discredit Darwin, he only lit the match and gave it a name.  You'll need way more real physical and observable evidence to challenge evolution.

Plainsman Said:
 take dogs for example, humans selected the desired traits from breeding wolves and now we have poodles.
 

That's a perfect example of not changing as you think.  The DNA always contained the code for black labs, yellow labs, collies, etc.  Man simply selected the characters he liked as they showed themselves.

Like I said evolution is a religion.  As some have pointed out you will not change anyones religious beliefs.  Hence you will not stop multi from worshiping at the foot of Darwin. 

There are many good books that put evolution in perspective.  Try Darwin's Black Box by Michael J. Behe.  Then you will understand that saying evolution is fact is pure foolishness.  If it was science would have proved it to everyone's satisfaction.  You will find there is a strong biochemical challenge to evolution. 

 
The above pictures of priimitive men are more art than science.  They sit around a table and say because the bone protrudes here it indicates a muscle attachement.  Hence the high cheek bones of native Americans indicate they were mostly herbivourse.  Then they start drawing what their imagination tells them to.   The evidence presented on here so far I don't consider evidence at all.  No more than finding a cape with a big S on it and holding it up as evidence that Superman really does exist. 
multi-species-angler's picture
multi-species-angler
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 4/26/09

 if the DNA contains the sequence to produce a black lab, how come I can't breed two cocker spaniels together and make a lab?  "Black lab" is not a recessive gene in another specie.

Plainsman Said:
 take dogs for example, humans selected the desired traits from breeding wolves and now we have poodles.
 

That's a perfect example of not changing as you think.  The DNA always contained the code for black labs, yellow labs, collies, etc.  Man simply selected the characters he liked as they showed themselves.

Like I said evolution is a religion.  As some have pointed out you will not change anyones religious beliefs.  Hence you will not stop multi from worshiping at the foot of Darwin. 

There are many good books that put evolution in perspective.  Try Darwin's Black Box by Michael J. Behe.  Then you will understand that saying evolution is fact is pure foolishness.  If it was science would have proved it to everyone's satisfaction.  You will find there is a strong biochemical challenge to evolution. 

 
The above pictures of priimitive men are more art than science.  They sit around a table and say because the bone protrudes here it indicates a muscle attachement.  Hence the high cheek bones of native Americans indicate they were mostly herbivourse.  Then they start drawing what their imagination tells them to.   The evidence presented on here so far I don't consider evidence at all.  No more than finding a cape with a big S on it and holding it up as evidence that Superman really does exist. 

Pages