Measure 2

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PerchMan's picture
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Measure 2

 Just wondering what opinion everyone has on this measure.  It can sound good from both points of views, and it can sound bad from both points of views.  Your thoughts?

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To me it just moves taxes from one person to another and gives non-resident property owners a $162 million dollar tax break.  Sorry, but my vote isn't going to be to give police, fire, and all the other protections/services to these non-residents for free.  I also believe local city/county governments are a lot more cost concious when their decisions come out of our local pockets instead of it being money handed down to them from the state or some other level.  Just look at how many spend any federal money they get.  They often buy things because the money's available and not necessarily because they TRULY need it.  I'm sure local income or sales taxes could fill that void, but that's just changing the payer and I'm still not willing to let non-resident property owners off the hook.  Too much of our property is already owned by non-residents.  No reason to make it even more lucrative for them.

I do hope this is a wake up call though and our state leaders do a better job of addressing school and roads costs. 

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Vote No!

If you vote no for only one reason do it for the public schools.  Property tax is where they get most of their money.  If they lose that, grab your popcorn and watch education go down the toilet.

Just Say No!


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walleyes n whitetails Said:
Vote No!

If you vote no for only one reason do it for the public schools.  Property tax is where they get most of their money.  If they lose that, grab your popcorn and watch education go down the toilet.

Just Say No!

When has ND ever had a poor public education system?  What specific details can you give as proof of your statement?

I'll tell you the biggest trouble/challenge the education system is going to have regarding this measure is things like the Fargo School Board being able to build new schools without a vote.  That's 80,000-90,000 people receiving taxation without representation.  I don't think giving up local control is the best choice but there are literally THOUSANDS of folks looking for any way to stick it to the Fargo School Board after the 3rd high school deal.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



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I never said ND had a poor education system.  If they lose their funding schools will be in big trouble.  I have no idea what has gone on in fargo.  But i can tell you williston would love to be able just build new schools right now.

http://keepitlocalnd.com/
The pie graph on the homepage(Source: Office of State Tax Commisioner) shows that 45.1% of property taxes go towards education


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Read the thread posted above in its entirety and get back to us.

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All I can say is that if it is passed we will not know if it works until a decade has passed. When you take a piece of the puzzle out and throw it away the big picture has to reorganize and that can take time. It can be done but it will be not without struggle and pain. The transition period is going to be full of negatives before we get things organized and well oiled. The opposition is going to use that to their advantage to say "We told you so." With any major change there will be struggle. Eventually the government and the people will develope a fair and proper method of taxation. All of us wish to own property some day. The problem with owning property is tjat if the property does not generate income, the property owned turns into a sort of "rental" which has no renter. The government demands "rent" from the owner...and if it cannot be paid, the owner is evicted even though he or she worked their entire life to pay it off and own it outright.

I

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The last legislature goofed up not giving us 20-50% credit on our state income taxes for our property taxes that were paid ,

To totally do away with them is a big mistake, it is going to be a close vote but I sure hope does not pass , but then the upcoming legislature needs to do something , cause if not it wll be brought up again and probably will pass the second time

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walleyes n whitetails Said:
  I have no idea what has gone on in fargo.  But i can tell you williston would love to be able just build new schools right now.

The teachers and administrators would love a new school or the residents who'll actually be paying for it?

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



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I now will be voting yes on this measure.  I just read that the state intends to increase property taxes another 7.5% or so.  They are also planning on increasing land taxes another 32% I believe.  The legislature obviously has no intentions of reducing property taxes.  Everybody I talk to that has made up their minds is voting for this measure.  I am now educating those that are undecided.  When I explain the issue and how our taxes are going to be raised again, the individuals I talk with become angry.  I believe by Nov. this measure will pass easily.  I didn't think this two months ago.  And this will not effect the amount of money the local schools will receive one iota.  nor will it effect what local and county governments will receive.  all it does is change the source of the funding.  the state is receving 4-5 million $ per day from the oil revenues.  they have chosen to not spend that money on infrastructure in western ND.  they say they are but there is absolutely nothing happening over here.  So I will be sticking up a huge "Vote yes on measure 2" sign on my property which is right on U.S. 85.  I have had it with the state government. 

 

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Horsager Said:
 
walleyes n whitetails Said:
  I have no idea what has gone on in fargo.  But i can tell you williston would love to be able just build new schools right now.

The teachers and administrators would love a new school or the residents who'll actually be paying for it?

I'm guessing anyone who has or knows the kids and teachers that are using mobile units parked outside the school as classrooms would like a new school that can support the population of students. 

I think this one is apples and oranges Horsager. Also, last I checked school board members are voted into their seats. Not that it helps anyone in Fargo do anything about it there are people to be held accountable. 

To the OP I stand firmly on the Vote NO side of the line. I would rather know specifically what funds will replace the loss of property taxes rather than roll the dice and see how it plays out. Hopefully this will kickstart the legislature to address our property taxes. 

J

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eyexer Said:
I now will be voting yes on this measure.  I just read that the state intends to increase property taxes another 7.5% or so.  They are also planning on increasing land taxes another 32% I believe.  The legislature obviously has no intentions of reducing property taxes.  Everybody I talk to that has made up their minds is voting for this measure.  I am now educating those that are undecided.  When I explain the issue and how our taxes are going to be raised again, the individuals I talk with become angry.  I believe by Nov. this measure will pass easily.  I didn't think this two months ago.  And this will not effect the amount of money the local schools will receive one iota.  nor will it effect what local and county governments will receive.  all it does is change the source of the funding.  the state is receving 4-5 million $ per day from the oil revenues.  they have chosen to not spend that money on infrastructure in western ND.  they say they are but there is absolutely nothing happening over here.  So I will be sticking up a huge "Vote yes on measure 2" sign on my property which is right on U.S. 85.  I have had it with the state government. 

Source?

J

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Where did you read that eye? Article please.

Is it impious to weigh goose music and art in the same scales? I think not, because the true hunter is merely a noncreative artist. Who painted the first picture on a bone in the caves of France? A hunter. Who alone in our modern life so thrills to the sight of living beauty that he will endure hunger and thirst and cold to feed his eye upon it? The hunter. Who wrote the great hunter's poem about the sheer wonder of the wind, the hail, and the snow, the stars, the lightnings, and the clouds, the lion, the deer, and the wild goat, the raven, the hawk, and the eagle, and above all the eulogy to the horse? Job, one of the great dramatic artists of all time. Poets sing and hunters scale the mountains primarily for one and the same reason--the thrill of beauty. Critics write and hunters outwit their game primarily for one and the same reason--to reduce that beauty to possession. The differences are largely matters of degree, consciousness, and that sly arbiter of the classification of human activities, language. If, then, we can live without goose music, we may as well do away with stars, or sunsets, or Iliads. But the point is we would be fools to do away with any of them. 

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eyexer Said:
I now will be voting yes on this measure.  I just read that the state intends to increase property taxes another 7.5% or so.  They are also planning on increasing land taxes another 32% I believe.  The legislature obviously has no intentions of reducing property taxes.  Everybody I talk to that has made up their minds is voting for this measure.  I am now educating those that are undecided.  When I explain the issue and how our taxes are going to be raised again, the individuals I talk with become angry.  I believe by Nov. this measure will pass easily.  I didn't think this two months ago.  And this will not effect the amount of money the local schools will receive one iota.  nor will it effect what local and county governments will receive.  all it does is change the source of the funding.  the state is receving 4-5 million $ per day from the oil revenues.  they have chosen to not spend that money on infrastructure in western ND.  they say they are but there is absolutely nothing happening over here.  So I will be sticking up a huge "Vote yes on measure 2" sign on my property which is right on U.S. 85.  I have had it with the state government. 

Yet you want to give them all of the financial power throughout the state, to decide the funding for every school and for every town or city.

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Measure #2 is severely flawed as written. I am absolutely for a reduction in property tax, but it has to be done in a responsible manner. Two things that are wrong with the measure are: (I'm sure there are more.)

1). If property taxes are completely eliminated, the revenue to fund state/county/local government and services would have to be replaced elsewhere. Would you rather pay higher sales or income taxes? Maybe the state would enact a personal property tax similar to what Montana has. 

2) In order to be guaranteed their funding, every city, county, township, park board, school board, etc. would have to become lobbyists to the state legislature. Since we have a part time legislature, the entire allocated session would be spent in committee hearing requests for funding and there wouldn't be time to act on any other legislative issues.  The only way this would work would be longer and more frequent sessions. This would grow government and require more funding to keep it running, therefore needing to increase revenue (taxes) in other areas to make up the shortfall.

The best thing that could happen is that Measure #2 goes down to defeat.  But, that we the citizens and property owners of ND put pressure on our state legislators to revamp to property tax system providing relief for property owners but ensuring that tax revenues remain at sufficient levels to maintain the funding needed.  Since property values keep rising 10-12% per year in central and western North Dakota, property taxes keep going up and up based on the assessed values.  It is absolutely ridiculous that there is so much money in surplus when there are so many needs throughout the state for infrastructure, emergency services, road repairs, flood control, etc. etc. etc.

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To me it's a generational difference for the most part.  The older generation whose kids already graduated, they've paid off the house, the cars, and have a steady (though somewhat reduced) income would benefit from a "Yes" vote as would those who've paid off debt in a timely fashion.  If you own your property, of any kind, then an increase in income tax shouldn't put a significant burden on the family unit.  Conversely, if you live paycheck to paycheck, have kids in school, are in significant debt of several flavors with a myriad of payments to the bank, then a "No" vote would prevent an increase in income tax and help keep the family unit on track.  It all depends on your personal financial situation.   Arguing over which is the best will accomplish very little other than maybe some stress relief.  At this point, I believe the "over 50" part of the population outnumbers the "under 50".  We shall see which group hits the ballot box the hardest.

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welll..... it was said a hundred different times in a dozen different ways on the other thread.  but, there is a whole slough of ways local municipalities could raise the money w/o having to tax my property and make me a property renter.  i won't take the time to give examples again.  but, there would be absolutely no need for local townships, counties, cities, etc... to go begging for money from the state or to let the state control anything.  they would simply need to find another way to raise X amount of dollars.  and i gave dozens of examples in the thread posted above.  people are using scare tactics and overcomplicating this issue.  open your mind... there is absolutely no valid reason why i should have to pay rent to the government to continue to own my home.  especially when you consider that the large part of that rent goes towards putting someone elses kids thru school. 

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Stizostedion vitreum Said:
All I can say is that if it is passed we will not know if it works until a decade has passed. When you take a piece of the puzzle out and throw it away the big picture has to reorganize and that can take time. It can be done but it will be not without struggle and pain. The transition period is going to be full of negatives before we get things organized and well oiled. The opposition is going to use that to their advantage to say "We told you so." With any major change there will be struggle. Eventually the government and the people will develope a fair and proper method of taxation. All of us wish to own property some day. The problem with owning property is tjat if the property does not generate income, the property owned turns into a sort of "rental" which has no renter. The government demands "rent" from the owner...and if it cannot be paid, the owner is evicted even though he or she worked their entire life to pay it off and own it outright.

I

Those who are to poor to pay property taxes do get exempted from paying them. If one is actually that restricted and unable to pay, the taxes get waved.

I think the property taxes should be reduced significantly, however not gotten rid of. They could also be eliminated for people who are retired who are no longer paying income taxes.

Neat

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walleyes n whitetails Said:
Vote No!

If you vote no for only one reason do it for the public schools.  Property tax is where they get most of their money.  If they lose that, grab your popcorn and watch education go down the toilet.

Just Say No!

And what if you send your kids to private school? 

 

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diamondguy81 Said:

Measure #2 is severely flawed as written. I am absolutely for a reduction in property tax, but it has to be done in a responsible manner. Two things that are wrong with the measure are: (I'm sure there are more.)

1). If property taxes are completely eliminated, the revenue to fund state/county/local government and services would have to be replaced elsewhere. Would you rather pay higher sales or income taxes? Maybe the state would enact a personal property tax similar to what Montana has. 

2) In order to be guaranteed their funding, every city, county, township, park board, school board, etc. would have to become lobbyists to the state legislature. Since we have a part time legislature, the entire allocated session would be spent in committee hearing requests for funding and there wouldn't be time to act on any other legislative issues.  The only way this would work would be longer and more frequent sessions. This would grow government and require more funding to keep it running, therefore needing to increase revenue (taxes) in other areas to make up the shortfall.

The best thing that could happen is that Measure #2 goes down to defeat.  But, that we the citizens and property owners of ND put pressure on our state legislators to revamp to property tax system providing relief for property owners but ensuring that tax revenues remain at sufficient levels to maintain the funding needed.  Since property values keep rising 10-12% per year in central and western North Dakota, property taxes keep going up and up based on the assessed values.  It is absolutely ridiculous that there is so much money in surplus when there are so many needs throughout the state for infrastructure, emergency services, road repairs, flood control, etc. etc. etc.

That's exactly what it will end up being.  Year round, full time legislature.  You vote for my project and I'll vote for yours.  You give me x amount of $ and I'll make sure you get your $$.  So much for less government..............

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since nobody is going to bother to read the above thread where some of your concerns were addressed, i will start responding here.

john... can you show us where you got your info about low income folks being exempted from property taxes? 

i don't see any reason at all why local governments have to hand over control to the state.  first of all... that is already going on.  everyone realizes that local property taxes and how they are spent currently have to be approved by the state don't they? 

i can give dozens of examples of how local governments can raise the same money some other place and not have to get approval from the state for how they raise the money or how they spend it.

if local governments chose to hand over power to the state to raise the money, there isn't any reason that the state legislature would have to meet anymore than they already do.  lets say the state raises money some other way or just uses oil money... local governments wouldn't have to submit budget proposals, etc.... to be reviewed by the legislature.  there could be some pretty simple formulas for how that money would be dispersed... local governments get $X for schools based on the # of school age children in the district, $X number of dollars based on miles of gravel roads, $X based on miles of 2 lane paved roads, $X based on miles of four lane roads, etc... see where i am coming from... doesn't have to be too complicated.  sure there could be requests for special projects that would be evaluated and voted on in separate bills... but, that is how that process works already. 

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and under the above scenario... even if the local governments hand over power to the state... i don't see why they couldn't supplement the state dispersement w/ their own form of fund raising.  the ONLY thing that would have to change here is how the money is raised.  sure it would have to be replaced with new taxes and fees.  but, it would be replaced with taxes and fees that don't make me a property owner subject to whether or not i pay rent on the value of that property to the state. 

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I will vote yes on this measure. Not because it is a great idea, but more a step in the right direction.  Property taxes should be based on valuation, location and services provided.
((IE, schools, fire, medical, drainage, water, sewer.)  As it is now, the system is more geared towards use of the property.  That is a owners decision.  I still believe sales tax
(with no exemptions) is the only way to tax fairly.  I do know that the value of a viable fire/ambulance service is worth far more if it is within one mile vs 25-50 miles away.
I do believe that this measure is going to cause some serious sore spots.   Dying communities have to realize that school consolidation is a thing that has come and start planning for that.  New school buildings in areas of steadily declining enrollment should be view with a microscope.

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Everyone should vote YES on Measure 2. I urge you to read the measure and it's supporting documents. First it must be understood - Measure 2 is a constitutional measure. That sets the rules for the state. The new rules are simple - you can no longer tax property - and the revenues MUST be replaced with other sources fully and properly. Period. That's what it means. All state laws must conform to this. What property tax is paying for now is in existing "law" - these are called "mills". The state can afford this, as Ed Schafer has stated publicly more than once without raising any taxes. This is about owning your home permanently - does anyone think it's right to have your home leveraged by your government? That's called feudalism. You pay rent to the king to live on his property. The king is now government. Seriously - I can't find a legitimate argument against Measure 2. Only fear-mongering by those who are currently abusing the tax. Special interest groups - they are lining up and screaming the sun won't rise tomorrow if it passes. 680 lots were siezed by your government last year - with 8 individuals/families losing there home. How many is ok with you? How many actually know the legislature has tried to "tweak" property tax over 130 times - and people are still losing their homes - some people are paying more in tax than they paid in mortgage payments. Get the facts - support the measure.  yesm2.com

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Absolutely false and completely misleading. The only thing the legislators are required to do is set a formula that fully and properly replaces property tax. How do you think k-12 is funded now? Whether it be in Minot or Page ND - they have a formula devised by the legislators that funds it "fully and properly" according to existing state requirements. Not a single legislator has been involved with the local school districts "budgets" - again this idea that you'll go "full time" legislation is complete BS and just another scare tactic. There are two county commissioners and a legislator as sponsors of the measure. Once the formula is devised - the legislators are pretty much done. The money goes to the sub-divisions and the locals spend it without strings. They don't have that control now. Everything regarding property tax is a scam. The state mandates all mills, all evaluation formulas (there's that "formula" again) all values of Ag land - there is a State Property Tax department - if there is "local" control over property tax - why is there a state department exactly? Don't buy the garbage. Ask yourself who stands to gain and lose the most? The citizens stand to gain and the special interests stand to lose. Roughly $800 million is going to go from the government economy into the private economy. There is not a single argument that holds water for voting against Measure 2. It's either you own your home - or you continue to get abused by special interests. Just as the measure is very well written (and the opposition knows this and playing you for fools) and is common sense - so is the actual real debate. It's you or special interests. It's that easy.

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That is not accurate - you have a state granted "grace period" - if you fail to meet the demands of the King - in the allotted time frame - YOU LOSE YOUR HOME TO SHERIFF SALE. This is special interest vs. the taxpayer. Put people first. Yes on Measure 2! Get the facts - not the disinformation!

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Tackle Joe Said:
Absolutely false and completely misleading. The only thing the legislators are required to do is set a formula that fully and properly replaces property tax. How do you think k-12 is funded now? Whether it be in Minot or Page ND - they have a formula devised by the legislators that funds it "fully and properly" according to existing state requirements. Not a single legislator has been involved with the local school districts "budgets"

Schools funded "fully and properly?"  Tell me where that is happening in western ND right now?  The state has a cap on the annual oil impact funding right now, and that cap hasn't been changed in many years.  Schools are packed here in western ND, and need funding.  The state did kick in some grants in the past weeks to help, but schools out west  will still struggle next year. 

Show me something that will tell me how schools will get funded if measure 2 passes.


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iluvswnd Said:
 

eyexer Said:
I now will be voting yes on this measure.  I just read that the state intends to increase property taxes another 7.5% or so.  They are also planning on increasing land taxes another 32% I believe.  The legislature obviously has no intentions of reducing property taxes.  Everybody I talk to that has made up their minds is voting for this measure.  I am now educating those that are undecided.  When I explain the issue and how our taxes are going to be raised again, the individuals I talk with become angry.  I believe by Nov. this measure will pass easily.  I didn't think this two months ago.  And this will not effect the amount of money the local schools will receive one iota.  nor will it effect what local and county governments will receive.  all it does is change the source of the funding.  the state is receving 4-5 million $ per day from the oil revenues.  they have chosen to not spend that money on infrastructure in western ND.  they say they are but there is absolutely nothing happening over here.  So I will be sticking up a huge "Vote yes on measure 2" sign on my property which is right on U.S. 85.  I have had it with the state government. 

Source?

a write up in the Williston Herald.

 

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iluvswnd Said:
 

Horsager Said:
 
walleyes n whitetails Said:
  I have no idea what has gone on in fargo.  But i can tell you williston would love to be able just build new schools right now.

The teachers and administrators would love a new school or the residents who'll actually be paying for it?

I'm guessing anyone who has or knows the kids and teachers that are using mobile units parked outside the school as classrooms would like a new school that can support the population of students. 

I think this one is apples and oranges Horsager. Also, last I checked school board members are voted into their seats. Not that it helps anyone in Fargo do anything about it there are people to be held accountable. 

To the OP I stand firmly on the Vote NO side of the line. I would rather know specifically what funds will replace the loss of property taxes rather than roll the dice and see how it plays out. Hopefully this will kickstart the legislature to address our property taxes. 

you just brought up a very interesting point.  there are schools using portables right now.  so obviously the system in place does not work.  all the more reasons to vote yes on this measure.  at least it can't be any worse than it is now. 

 

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diamondguy81 Said:

Measure #2 is severely flawed as written. I am absolutely for a reduction in property tax, but it has to be done in a responsible manner. Two things that are wrong with the measure are: (I'm sure there are more.)

1). If property taxes are completely eliminated, the revenue to fund state/county/local government and services would have to be replaced elsewhere. Would you rather pay higher sales or income taxes? Maybe the state would enact a personal property tax similar to what Montana has. 

2) In order to be guaranteed their funding, every city, county, township, park board, school board, etc. would have to become lobbyists to the state legislature. Since we have a part time legislature, the entire allocated session would be spent in committee hearing requests for funding and there wouldn't be time to act on any other legislative issues.  The only way this would work would be longer and more frequent sessions. This would grow government and require more funding to keep it running, therefore needing to increase revenue (taxes) in other areas to make up the shortfall.

The best thing that could happen is that Measure #2 goes down to defeat.  But, that we the citizens and property owners of ND put pressure on our state legislators to revamp to property tax system providing relief for property owners but ensuring that tax revenues remain at sufficient levels to maintain the funding needed.  Since property values keep rising 10-12% per year in central and western North Dakota, property taxes keep going up and up based on the assessed values.  It is absolutely ridiculous that there is so much money in surplus when there are so many needs throughout the state for infrastructure, emergency services, road repairs, flood control, etc. etc. etc.

but that's the problem.  there no discussion of lowering property taxes, only raising them even more.  so given that I believe the measure is sure to pass

 

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