epa (uncle) in charge in wyoming...

where are the personal property rights... think you own your own land??? we are just all renters here... 

 http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/14/wyoming-welder-faces-fine-for...

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weedy1 Said:

gst Said:

weedy1 Said:

The guy in Wyoming is one of those jerks who could care less about what happens to someone else, whether it is his downstream neighbor or the general public.  He is kind of like the people who shoot a gun in the air for gits and shiggles  with no regard to what may happen.  I shed no tears for this poor soul.  He is only thinking of himself!

And you determined this how?

Sorry gst I may have jumped to a conclusion.  Perhaps it was hasty to call the guy in Wyoming a jerk.  I am sure a welder and his wife are perfectly capable of building a safe embankment dam on their property.  They certainly have the credentials.  It is their land and they should be able to do anything they want, right?

Thanks for not accusing me of being an environmental extremist, liar, stating a bullshit claim, being dishonest, fricking stupid, idiotic, or any other of the many descriptions you typically use when someone has a differing point of view from your own.

I must admit, I had a former supervisor who described me as being argumentative and condescending.  I guess I would have to agree with him, as I do tend to disagree with stupid people.  Sorry if that stung gst, but I thought I should use at least one of your famous descriptive adjectives to describe someone who doesn't think like me.

I guess after reconsideration and finding out you are standing up for the Wyoming welder, I must have better than a 50/50 chance of being correct on my first evaluation.

By the way gst, the FB initials for this internet network do stand for "Fishing Buddy".  You seem quite often to have it confused with FARM BUREAU.  Same initials, I can easily see how this could happen.  The Bureau folks are nice people too and I am sure they would appreciate your point of view.  Maybe you should check them out and provide them with your keen insight.  Please don't use your harsh language around them, they may not be as forgiving.

Weedy, all I asked was how you came to the conclusion you did given your limited knowledge?

weedy, what exactly do you do for a living?

I guess we know how govt agencies like this can develope into overbearing, agenda driven, abuse their power  pain in the asses!

Weedy in regards to the emboldened portion of your little rant, I call a spade a spade when I see one.

But I ALWAYS give the spade an opportunity to substantiate their claims or accusations by politely asking "please show me where" ect....

funny how no one ever does.

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weedy1 Said:
In reply to eyexer's question the SWC permit requirements kick in at 12 and 1/2 acre feet of water stored or diverted.  A quick estimate can be made by taking the surface area x maximum depth x 1/3.  So a 2 acre pond with a maximum depth of 15 feet would store approximately 10 acre feet,  With seepage and dry summers most ranchers who run herds in pastures shoot for structures of this size if their topography allows.  Fish ponds built by individuals are typically larger than this.  Looking at the photo of the Wyoming welder's reservoir it is hard tell how large it is.  But if he is raising trout in it, the depth probably exceeds 15 feet, or winter kill would be a very common occurrence.  Have no idea if Montana's regs line up with those in ND,

I agree there is limited enforcement of wells in the NW part of ND.  This is due to limited SWC staff to check on what is going on.  Similar to the drill sock issue that has raised it's ugly head and the Health Dept. trying to keep up with that problem, oil spills, train derailments, solid waste dumping, fracking issues, and animal feedlots all at the same time.  Enforcement resources only stretch so far.

A lot of farm ponds can be built without SWC permits due to the smaller size.  There is a notification process that does impact smaller ponds.  The SWC requires this to avoid having to go out and inspect structures when they receive a complaint.  If the construction notification is properly filed with the required information, the SWC can just inform the complaining party that the structure does not fall under their jurisdiction.  Saves a lot of man power!

However, if more than 10 cubic yards of fill material is placed in an area identified as a wetland than  a consult with the Corps of Engineers who administer EPA regulations of the 404 Clean Water Act is a wise move.  If you excavate a pit to trap water as it passes through an area you also need to be aware that the action could be determined to negatively impact a wetland directly downstream.  This also would kick 404 regs into effect.

Hope my limited knowledge of SWC permit info helps.  Montana's situation could be a lot different, but EPA is EPA anywhere in the country.  The Wyoming guy either had to excavate a hell of a hole to store the water depicted in the picture or had to place some fill in a water course to dam it up.  With the size of reservoir shown and the ability to hold enough deep water to sustain fish it is a pretty good chance the project would have been in a water course falling under COE or 404 permit requirements.  Sounds like the Montana agency in charge of water or construction permits missed an opportunity to provide guidance to the welder on 404 regulations.  I am sure they are not going to admit it now that fines may be imposed.

Ignorance is Bliss until it costs you something!

I see why the county said not a problem, I'm comfortably under the size required for a permit.  

 

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But I ALWAYS give the spade an opportunity to substantiate their claims or accusations by politely asking

I didn't think that was legal in North Dakota yet.  GST are you in Colorado?

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What percentage of ND landowners know that you need a USACOE permit to build a stock dam?  My guess is very few.

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French."  Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
 -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

 

 

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cynical Said:
What percentage of ND landowners know that you need a USACOE permit to build a stock dam?  My guess is very few.

you don't in all cases.

 

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eyexer Said:
 
cynical Said:
What percentage of ND landowners know that you need a USACOE permit to build a stock dam?  My guess is very few.

you don't in all cases.

  Never built a stock dam, but have dug several stock ponds over the years and every one of them required a permit from COE. I would think anyone who has cattle would know they need a permit.

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25gill Said:
 
eyexer Said:
 
cynical Said:
What percentage of ND landowners know that you need a USACOE permit to build a stock dam?  My guess is very few.

you don't in all cases.

  Never built a stock dam, but have dug several stock ponds over the years and every one of them required a permit from COE. I would think anyone who has cattle would know they need a permit.

I would doubt there are very many that know this.  

 

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 Or care for that matter.

 

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Plainsman Said:

But I ALWAYS give the spade an opportunity to substantiate their claims or accusations by politely asking

I didn't think that was legal in North Dakota yet.  GST are you in Colorado?

  No clue what you are talking about Bruce.

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weedy1 thanks for the info, we went through this two years ago looking to add more water storage in our pasture land. County said no permit needed, but the guy doing the work was not as sure. Got the permit without any issue, but it was better to have had it prior than to fight after the fact.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Neat

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weedy, just out of curiousity, what do you do for a living?

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http://www.christart.com/IMAGES-art9ab/books/richard_gunther/b/beware_the_camels_nose/Camel-01.gif

 

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guywhofishes Said:
http://www.christart.com/IMAGES-art9ab/books/richard_gunther/b/beware_the_camels_nose/Camel-01.gif

You are well versed on your fables, sir.

"Diligence is the mother of good luck."

"The constitution only gives people the right to pursue hapiness.  You have to catch it yourself."

"Well done is better than well said."

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

All by:  Benjamin Franklin.

"The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the bigger the problem, the longer the trip should be."

Author: John Gierach

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guywhofishes Said:
http://www.christart.com/IMAGES-art9ab/books/richard_gunther/b/beware_the_camels_nose/Camel-01.gif

Thanks guy,

This is a great poster for opposition to the proposed "clean water" measure that the sponsors have teamed up with these nonprofits that have joined with the EPA and are accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars from before it even gets on the ballot!

Surely if we let their nose under the tent, after accepting their millions to pass this measure, they will want the tent itself!

Great analogy! Thanks again.

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Hardwaterman Said:
weedy1 thanks for the info, we went through this two years ago looking to add more water storage in our pasture land. County said no permit needed, but the guy doing the work was not as sure. Got the permit without any issue, but it was better to have had it prior than to fight after the fact.

Hardwaterman - I've had the opportunity to work with many of the county water resource boards in ND.  They are appointed officials selected by county commissions.  Counties in the eastern part of the state typically have a lawyer and engineering firm assisting them due to the complex water issues.  The Devils Lake counties even have paid staff to assist in coordinating larger projects.

The western counties haven't faced the controversial problems of the east but the oil boom is changing that quickly.  Most contractors involved in building embankment ponds, or in your case, an excavated pond are pretty knowledgeable about permit issues.  Sounds like you picked a good one! 

Weedy

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gst Said:
weedy, just out of curiousity, what do you do for a living?

gst, you must be suffering from dementia as you asked this of me when I commented on a previous topic.  I am a retired civil engineer.  I was born into a farming family and have a number of family members who still earn their living in that proud endeavor.  I got my engineering degree from NDSU so I had a lot of classmates who grew up on farms as well

Many of the projects that I worked on in my professional career required coordination with federal, state, and local units of government.  So I got used to working with regulations.  Not all of those experiences were positive (remember I have been described as argumentative and condescending).  I also worked with farmers and ranchers on hundreds of projects that required coordination with their neighbors.  Not all of those projects were positive either.   

I don't believe that anyone's profession limits them from having beliefs independent of how they earn their salary.  Not all plumbers think alike, not all farmers think alike.  Not all republicans like vegetables and not all democrats like pizza.  If you try to label people's convictions by their occupation you have a warped perspective of reality.  You must live in a pretty small world to be this petty!   Didn't mom and dad hug you enough in your formative years?

You know what is ironic about this entire situation.  My father was a welder for most of his life.  He was also very conservative, very religious, and stubborn as hell.  Based on your occupation correlation scenario, I should be standing up as an advocate for this dude in Wyoming.  I think the guy is getting what he deserved.  He may have not known at the time he was screwing up.  But he did screw up and ignorance of regulations doesn't make those regulations wrong.

So, I am not a tree hugging, nose ring wearing, long haired, radical liberal.  Just a well informed independent thinker who happens to see things differently than you.  And I am very happy that is the case!

Weedy

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weedy1 Said:

gst Said:
weedy, just out of curiousity, what do you do for a living?

gst, you must be suffering from dementia as you asked this of me when I commented on a previous topic.  I am a retired civil engineer.  I was born into a farming family and have a number of family members who still earn their living in that proud endeavor.  I got my engineering degree from NDSU so I had a lot of classmates who grew up on farms as well

Many of the projects that I worked on in my professional career required coordination with federal, state, and local units of government.  So I got used to working with regulations.  Not all of those experiences were positive (remember I have been described as argumentative and condescending).  I also worked with farmers and ranchers on hundreds of projects that required coordination with their neighbors.  Not all of those projects were positive either.   

I don't believe that anyone's profession limits them from having beliefs independent of how they earn their salary.  Not all plumbers think alike, not all farmers think alike.  Not all republicans like vegetables and not all democrats like pizza.  If you try to label people's convictions by their occupation you have a warped perspective of reality.  You must live in a pretty small world to be this petty!   Didn't mom and dad hug you enough in your formative years?

You know what is ironic about this entire situation.  My father was a welder for most of his life.  He was also very conservative, very religious, and stubborn as hell.  Based on your occupation correlation scenario, I should be standing up as an advocate for this dude in Wyoming.  I think the guy is getting what he deserved.  He may have not known at the time he was screwing up.  But he did screw up and ignorance of regulations doesn't make those regulations wrong.

So, I am not a tree hugging, nose ring wearing, long haired, radical liberal.  Just a well informed independent thinker who happens to see things differently than you.  And I am very happy that is the case!

Weedy, why the hate man?

Given it would be surprising if you actually knew the facts of the case in Wy. once again why would you say what I emboldened?

Once again I asked what you did for a living as your posts seem to be a logical explanation/example why many govt agencies have the earned reputation they do.

"I from/working with the govt , and I'm here to help"! And if you don;t like our help we will bury you in regulation and restrictions because we can and it makes me feel powerful. 

But hey maybe I am wrong, the govt does so many things so well.

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weedy don't let gst bother you, he just hates getting his butt kicked so thoroughly without any farm org talking points to draw from. Your explanation of the permit process and fed rules regarding tributaries that connect to navigable waters poured water on his kindling.

But his last post regarding camels is misleading, he and others like him invited the camel in through the door and now do not want to share the tent with anyone else. Heaven forbid a acre gets protected or sold to someone who will not plow it up! Gov is OK to say I cannot sell my land to whomever I want for the best price but least they protect downstream residents from some upstream idiot that has no idea of dam construction from causing possible death and property destruction because of the poorly built dam blowing out.

But we all understand gst being the hypocrite in that regards. He forgets that he cannot have it both ways.

Still cannot post all but there are topo pictures of this WY property and it is clear that a dam was built not a stock tank. Size also exceeds limits on acre feet as well. There are a number of other threads out there that have discussed this, and while most people feel for the guy because he did seek a state permit, he did not follow the safety guidelines that could realistically affect others down stream from him.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Hardwaterman Said:
weedy don't let gst bother you, he just hates getting his butt kicked so thoroughly without any farm org talking points to draw from. Your explanation of the permit process and fed rules regarding tributaries that connect to navigable waters poured water on his kindling.

But his last post regarding camels is misleading, he and others like him invited the camel in through the door and now do not want to share the tent with anyone else. Heaven forbid a acre gets protected or sold to someone who will not plow it up! Gov is OK to say I cannot sell my land to whomever I want for the best price but least they protect downstream residents from some upstream idiot that has no idea of dam construction from causing possible death and property destruction because of the poorly built dam blowing out.

But we all understand gst being the hypocrite in that regards. He forgets that he cannot have it both ways.

Still cannot post all but there are topo pictures of this WY property and it is clear that a dam was built not a stock tank. Size also exceeds limits on acre feet as well. There are a number of other threads out there that have discussed this, and while most people feel for the guy because he did seek a state permit, he did not follow the safety guidelines that could realistically affect others down stream from him.

Ron your claim rings hollow yet once again as most on here know my steadfast claim that property rights are not absolute, but must simply be weighed carefully when being infringed upon.

The representatives of ALL the people of ND have done this and yet because it is not to YOUR liking, YOU believe they are wrong.

Ron please explain how "he and others like him" meaning agriculture that you are refering to, have "let the camels nose under the tent" in regards to groups like the National Wildlife Federation sueing to change the parameters of CRP contracts? (that worked well to win the hearts and minds of the people targeted by your groups to enroll land in these programs)

Please eplain how The Nature Conservancies "collaboration" with the EPA was "invited" by agriculture?

Please show how the lawsuits filed by the Center for Biological /Diversity on wolf management and butterflies was "invited" by "he and others like him"?

All that was being done in this thread ron was to show how having people with the mindset like demonstrated by weedy,  in govt gets govt to where it is now.

I think most understand that.

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So the epa is wrong in WY for taking others rights into account because of potential destruction the dam he built poses, but the state is right for taking away my right to sell to whomever I want ?

Put your hands on your ear lobes and pull until you hear a pop and daylight appears! It will help with your anal cranium issues!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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gst one more time, like a lot of things passed by the Leg some do not pass the Constitution test. We at one time had a law in the state that did not allow non residents to be guides and outfitters in the state. To do so you had to be a resident.

The Leg faced with the challenge of constitutional issues realized they where on the wrong side. The case regarding the states law is set for a final pretrial hearing later this year regarding Cook. Unless a settlement is reached and I am betting that is the route the state will take knowing like the G/O issue they are on the wrong side.

So again gst, the law passed was a prime example of the ag org being in the tent and not wanting to share the tent! We have been over this many times but IMHO when push comes to shove this law will be dealt a death blow by any court outside of ND!

The ag I believe knows this about our current law, but is bound to defend it anyway, and it like Iowa and other states should not be a surprise to anyone with common sense. The single most important right is that of being allowed to sell it for the price you desire and to whom. Even in cities where use restrictions apply that right is not abridged. Use of the property may limit the buyer but does not prevent a buyer from owning it. Farm land is not special in that way. The only issue that may stand is the issue of tax exempt status and my meaning on that is that not every parcel purchased by a non profit may meet or be eligible for tax exempt status, but I do believe that will take some Leg tinkering.

So gst, the courts are going to kick your camel to the curb.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Hardwaterman Said:
So the epa is wrong in WY for taking others rights into account because of potential destruction the dam he built poses, but the state is right for taking away my right to sell to whomever I want ?

Put your hands on your ear lobes and pull until you hear a pop and daylight appears! It will help with your anal cranium issues!

You seem to be missing the point here as usual ron.

I can not say if the EPA is wrong or right here as I don;t have any more information about this particular situation than you or weedy.

Perhaps he is in the wrong, maybe not.

But hey lets not stop not knowing the facts  from jumping to conclusions once again proving my point that the involvement of the types of people the govt seems to gravitate and their attitudes and ideals often is the source of most problems.

I would guess most on here would agree, someone with your way of thinking ron or weedys would not be their first pick for a govt employee to deal with.


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ron, if the courts decide as you suggest, so be it. It has stood for how many decades.

Until they do, despite your claim that agriculture controls what happens in this state, the representatives of ALL the people of ND have weighed the consequences and established law.

Period.

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ron you have never answered this one question in all our discussions about this.

Would you support Mr. Cobb buying the home next to yours?

Oh yeah ron, one more should I have the "right" to sell my land to my Canadian friend?


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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/18/lawsuit-challenges-feds-over-...

Oklahoma's attorney general and an oil and gas industry trade group have filed a lawsuit against the federal government over its decision to settle a lawsuit with an environmental group over the listing status of several animal species.

Scott Pruitt claims in the lawsuit filed in federal court in Tulsa on Monday that federal agencies are colluding with like-minded special interest groups and using "sue and settle" tactics that violate the federal Endangered Species Act and have a "crippling effect" on the U.S. economy.

“Increasingly, federal agencies are colluding with like-minded special interest groups by using ‘sue and settle’ tactics to reach ‘friendly settlements’ of lawsuits filed by the interest groups," Pruitt said in a statement.

One of the animals whose listing status is in question is the lesser prairie chicken. It has been under evaluation to be listed as endangered for years. 

Pruitt said that has led Oklahoma as well as other states and the private industry to spend $26 million to develop a conservation plan to protect it. 

“Oklahoma has indicated its willingness to protect the lesser prairie chicken but it seems increasingly clear this issue isn’t about sound science or saving endangered species," he said. "Using the courts to impose regulations undermines the rule of law."  

Conservation groups like New-Mexico based WildEarth Guardians say the lesser prairie chicken has suffered population declines in part due to oil, gas and wind energy development.

According to the lawsuit, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service violated the Endangered Species Act by agreeing to a settlement with WildEarth Guardians that led to a consent decree requiring the agency to determine the listing status of the lesser prairie chicken by March 31.

The lawsuit also claims the agency violated the law by agreeing to a truncated timeline to the decision-making process on the listing status of the 250 other species, essentially sidestepping the rule making process, the attorney general's office said.

"Because these settlements are taking place without public input, attorneys general are unable to represent the respective interests of their states, businesses, and citizens,” Pruitt said.

The Oklahoma-based Domestic Energy Producers Alliance, which represents independent oil and natural gas producers, is party to the lawsuit. They argue the federal government is using the Endangered Species Act to halt oil and natural gas development and devalue private property rights.

“DEPA joins the state of Oklahoma in this litigation, not only on behalf of our members, but all citizens of this great country, whose rights are threatened when our government precludes participation in the political, administrative and judicial process,” DEPA President Mike McDonald said in a statement.

Peter Carr, a Justice Department spokesman, told Businessweek he couldn’t immediately comment on the allegations.

 
 
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gst, I have no say if Cobb wants to buy the house next to me, just as I have no say on what religious following or race the buyers are. IT IS NOT MY HOUSE TO DECIDE! Nor should I have a say in whom they sell to. I would not want Cobb next to me just as I would not want you either! But on who buys it I have no control as it should be. I find it really funny that you try and bring up something like Cobb when you have nothing to support your position. It shows how shallow and weak your argument is.

I will even go one step further, in that while I disagree with Cobb and others like him, I fully support their right to hold and speak the views they do. It is why our nation is built on the first and second amendments. Not the twisted view of entitled privilege that the farm groups of ND push!
To be clear on that, the view that only what benefits Ag is justified, nothing else matters.

What I like vs what is constitutional are two different issues. Just as is your last posting regarding the EPA. It has been long established that navigable waters and tributaries to them are under EPA controls regarding the thread topic. I am one of the first to agree that the EPA and other Gov agencies do try to over extend the authority they have to new areas. Nothing new here.

But the point of the matter is simply this, the aerial photos of the property in question show a dam on a waterway. The unknown is if the EPA has authority on it because of where the water ends up. If they do, then this guy is screwed and his rights end where they can affect others rights.

So again reach up grab your ears and pull until you see light. The EPA is not always right nor always wrong but the courts will likely give us the answers to this issue.

None of what is going on in WY has any relevance to the petition being circulated at all. Nor does the posting you made. What is relevant though is your continued BS and continued spewing of it.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Ron, for some reason I can picture you front and center with your sign telling Mr. Cobb to get the hell out of your neighborhood let alone the rants at the city council meeting.

That is if it didn't interfere with your demands over how ranchers should be raising their cattle.

Ron should I be able to sell land here in the US that I own to my Canadian friend and neighbor?

Ron should out of state interests have a say in changing our states constitution?

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So your Cobb thing blew up in your face, you have nothing of substance to back your BS as usual, keep tugging those ears, there is hope for you to see light some day and at least temporarily fix your cranial/anal insertion syndrome! 

weedy blows your epa rant out of the water, Cook is not rolling over on the land purchase issue, you where unsuccessful in deflecting away the fact that the farm orgs do not want to share the tent, because they have their camel already in it. My you have had a bad couple days and no effective jabs at conservation organizations!

Best toss out the Folgers and get some hi test coffee, your going to need it!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Ron should out of state interests have a say in changing our states constitution?

gst stop and look hard at that question and if you think the answer is NO then also stop and take a look at who is against the petition and regardless of if they have an office or are doing business here, many of the companies are domiciled outside of ND!

Also that means no support from the national level of any farm group either, because I am sure  you are not implying that the outside support is going to be bus loads of people from MN,SD and MT even Manitoba trying to vote illegally?

So get this straight one more time dumbass, either stand up and tell the org that you support to make the pledge of no out of state money or help if this gets to the ballot or shut up about this issue one last time. You are really starting to look like a 3 rd grader arguing with the teacher that the world is flat!
  What is the funniest thing about all of this is that you are really clueless on the real facts and continue to try and make up false demons to attack it. So again either make sure the groups opposed meet the standards you are demanding or shut up dumbass !

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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