The End All Discussion On Ice Fishing Sonar / Flashers

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Tim Sandstrom Said:
Yeah science or physics or whatever the heck it is...maybe mathematics isn't on their side. It is blatant obvious with cone versus structure. You guys going to make me write lowrance to describe cone angle?  And when their answer is not like yours are you going to continue to say you are smarter than their engineers and computer mathematic gurus? 
guywhofishes Said:
 So now a bigger cone angle is better on drop-offs cuz graphs magically cure that with their superior tweaking capability? It's getting deep in here!

HAHA! This is fun. 

Again, I never said it was flawless. Its not. For whatever reason that day it seemed to work a bit better, as we could see the fish show up in that dead zone because of the color schemes and perhaps a wider cone angle. I don't know. 

Go ahead and call lowrance Tim. Its your time, not mine. Funny.

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 How do you see them coming in?  Don't you just see a line from right to left?  That was what I saw in graph mode. 

sdwxman Said:
 
KurtR Said:
will say the  elite 5 is the number one reason for the 2nd place finish in the mobridge tourney this week end.  would have never found where we were fishing with just a flasher.  using the navioncs to find the edge and the gps on a 4.5 mile run in the blizzard was important.

Yep. Same here!

I have to laugh that the guys next to us with there vex's where complaining about the dead zone along the drop off.  Meanwhile, we had the bigger cone angle and could see 'em coming in. A few adjustments with the sensitivity and color line and we were golden. Out fished them big time as well.

Haters are gonna hate on the graphs. Let 'em hate. LOL. Great job yesterday Kurt. 


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
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Use the phone and make a video. I am intrigued not because I am a hater. Hell I tried to join the grapher cult. I want to know what I am doing wrong. I guess I could get a hold of Chris Meyer and Doc Samson. They know Lowrance. 


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
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If Simms shows up he can collaborate. We both huddled in that shack trying to stay warm and fishing off one graph, 2 holes. It was brutal. And we pulled a 49 spot out of 490 or so teams.

I THINK, pure speculation, the wider cone angle allowed us to see those fish when they were a bit farther out from out bait and jigs. The bottom would turn a funny color, maybe a pixel would change, then it would get thicker, and so on. Sometimes the fish would hang on the edge. Maybe this gave us an advantage? Another thing, the current was dragging our lines noticeably downstream, so the wider code angle helped when fishing at 40 FOW. Simms was upstream of the transducer and he was much more clear on the graph than my line. 

I adjusted the sensitivity and colorline, along with max ping speed, to be able to maximize our view down their. It seemed to work. Its not perfect by any means, but it was functional.

Oh, and we hauled that graph across the ice in 20 below wind chills, and it worked just fine when I fired it up. Did not "freeze up." Temp was about 5 above. 

It is what it is. It works for me. 

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You can see fish in the dead zones using flashers to. Shows up as your bottom flickering / "moving" - this isnt something new only visible with graphs. Id say you guys did well in your tournament because you were superior fisherman, in a good thought-out location. Congrats again fellers!

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

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Wags86 Said:
You can see fish in the dead zones using flashers to. Shows up as your bottom flickering / "moving" - this isnt something new only visible with graphs. Id say you guys did well in your tournament because you were superior fisherman, in a good thought-out location. Congrats again fellers!

Yeah, I agree. I think the guys we were with weren't using their Vex's properly, or reading them right. 

I'm glad we got off the ice without losing a finger or toe to frostbite! haha.

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Tim Sandstrom Said:
Hell, you guys have such beautiful contours from high def survey and LIDAR that GpS should put you within 10 feet of where you want and a couple popped holes and depth check and should be golden. I envy your contours down south.  


KurtR Said:

will say the  elite 5 is the number one reason for the 2nd place finish in the mobridge tourney this week end.  would have never found where we were fishing with just a flasher.  using the navioncs to find the edge and the gps on a 4.5 mile run in the blizzard was important.

Congrats though. Gotta love it when everything comes together. 

ya the contours are very very helpfull in finding a place.  really i dont think there is and end all what is best for every one.  Just what is best for each individuals use.  Either way we are light years a head of the old chunk of lead checking depths and hoping fish are there. 

Thanks and it is a good feeling when it all works like you want it to not very often it does.

 Adn

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KurtR Said:

Tim Sandstrom Said:
Hell, you guys have such beautiful contours from high def survey and LIDAR that GpS should put you within 10 feet of where you want and a couple popped holes and depth check and should be golden. I envy your contours down south.  


KurtR Said:

will say the  elite 5 is the number one reason for the 2nd place finish in the mobridge tourney this week end.  would have never found where we were fishing with just a flasher.  using the navioncs to find the edge and the gps on a 4.5 mile run in the blizzard was important.

Congrats though. Gotta love it when everything comes together. 

ya the contours are very very helpfull in finding a place.  really i dont think there is and end all what is best for every one.  Just what is best for each individuals use.  Either way we are light years a head of the old chunk of lead checking depths and hoping fish are there. 

Thanks and it is a good feeling when it all works like you want it to not very often it does.

Can I get an Amen? I say... CAN I GET AN AMEN???

(except you Ahab and whopper, you two are on a hot streak and you need not complain like the rest of us)

 

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Wags86 Said:
You can see fish in the dead zones using flashers to. Shows up as your bottom flickering / "moving" - this isnt something new only visible with graphs. Id say you guys did well in your tournament because you were superior fisherman, in a good thought-out location. Congrats again fellers!

That is correct and exactly why smaller cones are made.  Because that really becomes almost a none issue.  Sometimes if you sit by a rock or wicked washout ledge (right as highwater years were upon us) you were doomed no matter what.  But you can always see with the flasher because of the "bubbling" affect.  Just is annoying to not see instant action and why I will always lean on my narrower beam.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
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this guy will try get a video made tonight.  you should be able to see fish bubbling on your graph... same as you see it on your flasher.  i will say it again... the graph should show you absolutely everything your flasher does.  the dead zone will of course be bigger with a 20 deg cone vs an 8 or a 9.  however, learning to read your "bottom" allows you to see fish in the dead zone on a graph just like it does on a flasher. 

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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Using a flasher is like using a flip phone.  Yeah it works, but that display technology has reached its limit (long ago really) and is inevitably on its way to becoming obsolete.

Did you ever see a flasher display anything like this?

That image is from the Tailrace below Garrison Dam, and I recorded it with a Lowrance HDS-10.  A good, graph style display is simply capable of so much more than a mechanical "flasher". 

And are we still talking about "cone" angles?  I use that word too, but really shouldn't. 

Just like in the movie "The Matrix" where the kid says "Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead...only try to realize the truth.  There is no spoon."

There is no "CONE".

Or at least not the "cone" often depicted in diagrams and charts in some of these companies marketing materials. 

You know, that nice and neat diagram where, if a fish is marked on the display in 20' FOW it must within 3.5487 feet of your lure... 

Really?   

The cone angle is actually an arbitrary measurement which relates little to actual sonar performance.

It relates only to coverage in that a "wider" cone angle transducer will of course have a wider coverage area.

To measure cone angle you must first locate the Peak power point under the center of the transducer. Then you locate the Half Power Point (which is -3dB for Lowrance) on both sides of the peak power point. This is the "cone angle" which is used ONLY to identify the transducer element.

Outside of the "Half Power Point" in decreasing levels is still usable power - the other half of the total transmit power.

Now the power weakens at an exponential rate the wider the angle, but usable sonar power and useable sonar echoes are received up to 60º on a standard 20º cone angle Lowrance  transducer.

That is why the cone angle is only a measurement to identify the transducer, and does not indicate what WILL OR NOT BE SEEN as an echo return.

The better your receiver, the more refined and sensitive it is, working in concert with a good transducer capable of transmitting efficiently and receiving the smallest of return echoes will be able show you sonar detail in a larger area than what the transducers "cone angle" would indicate.

And, oh, what's really going to bake your noodle later on (I'm sticking with "The Matrix" theme here) is this diagram below depicting what sound waves really look like under water with a "20 degree" transducer. 

See the side lobes?

It's all about performance on the water, and the unit's ability to display information.  Don't get too stuck in "cone" angles when trying to decide which sonar (GRAPH) to buy for ice fishing.  

Remember...There is no spoon.  ;D 

Jim Carroll NPAA #13

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Looks like a paddle fish in the upper left.  Down and side scan are pretty sweet in the boat.  If you had it on ice it would be a bunch of white streaks from left to right.  Without boat travel/movement scan will not show definition.  Just white bottom and white streaks left to right as fish targets.  Also it's not a cone, its more of a stretched out oval.  Not sure why a scan image has anything to do with ice fishing because I doubt anybody would use structure scan in a stationary setting as it would provide little value.  Just sayin'

"Diligence is the mother of good luck."

"The constitution only gives people the right to pursue hapiness.  You have to catch it yourself."

"Well done is better than well said."

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

All by:  Benjamin Franklin.

"The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the bigger the problem, the longer the trip should be."

Author: John Gierach

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Jim,

I read most of that on the Lowrance website.

But I think it should very much be pointed out that Ahab is right.  Until technology advances to a "radar" type approach I don't see you getting anything other than lines scrolling from right to left on your graph.

Or are you telling me downscan and sidescan can draw you a picture like that sitting still?  If so, shoot me a video because I know you don't use a flip phone judging by your comments. 


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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Here's the document I have read in the past and was checking out earlier last week:

http://support.lowrance.com/system/selfservice.controller?CONFIGURATION=1001&PARTITION_ID=1&secureFlag=false&TIMEZONE_OFFSET=&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=2967

espringers,

This is something you should note.  Looks like 8 degree cones are available?

Transducer Cone Angles
The transducer concentrates the sound into a beam. When a pulse of sound is transmitted from the transducer, it covers a wider area the deeper it travels. If you were to plot this on a piece of graph paper, you would find that it creates a cone shaped pattern, hence the term "cone angle." The sound is strongest along the center line or axis of the cone and gradually diminishes as you move away from the center.

In order to measure the transducer's cone angle, the power is first measured at the center or axis of the cone and then compared to the power as you move away from the center. When the power drops to half (or -3db[decibels] in electronic terms), the angle from that center axis is measured. The total angle from the -3db point on one side of the axis to the -3db point on the other side of the axis is called the cone angle.

This half power point (-3db) is a standard for the electronics industry and most manufacturers measure cone angle in this way, but a few use the -10db point where the power is 1/10 of the center axis power. This gives a greater angle, as you are measuring a point further away from the center axis. Nothing is different in transducer performance; only the system of measurement has changed. For example, a transducer that has an 8 degree cone angle at -3db would have a 16 degree cone angle at -10db.

Although the half power point is the standard for measuring cone angles, fish detection angles are much larger. Lowrance sonar units have very sensitive receivers and can detect return echoes from fish, structure or the bottom out to 60° or more. This means that the fish detection angle is 60° even though the cone angle is only 20°.

20 degree cone angle | 8 degree cone angle
Lowrance offers transducers with a variety of cone angles. Wide cone angles will show you more of the underwater world, at the expense of depth capability, since it spreads the transmitter's power out. Narrow cone angle transducers won't show you as much of what's around you, but will penetrate deeper than the wide cone. The narrow cone transducer concentrates the transmitter's power into a smaller area. A bottom signal on the sonar unit's display will be wider on a wide cone angle transducer than on a narrow one because you are seeing more of the bottom. The wide cone's area is much larger than the narrow cone.

High frequency (192 - 200 kHz) transducers come in either a narrow or wide cone angle. The wide cone angle should be used for most freshwater applications and the narrow cone angle should be used for all saltwater applications. Low frequency (50 kHz) sonar transducers are typically in the 30 to 45 degree range. Although a transducer is most sensitive inside its specified cone angle, you can also see echoes outside this cone; they just aren't as strong. The effective cone angle is the area within the specified cone where you can see echoes on the display. If a fish is suspended inside the transducer's cone, but the sensitivity is not turned up high enough to see it, then you have a narrow effective cone angle. You can vary the effective cone angle of the transducer by varying the receiver's sensitivity. With low sensitivity settings, the effective cone angle is narrow, showing only targets immediately beneath the transducer and a shallow bottom. Turning the sensitivity control up increases the effective cone angle, letting you see targets farther out to the sides.

----------

Fish Arches
One of the most common questions that we receive is "How do I get fish arches to show on my screen?" It's really pretty simple to do, but it does require attention to detail, not only in the way you make the adjustments to the unit, but to the whole sonar installation.

It also helps to see the Why Fish Arch section below. This explains how arches are created on your sonar's screen.

Screen Resolution
The number of vertical pixels that the screen is capable of showing is called Screen Resolution. The more vertical pixels on a sonar's screen, the easier it will be for it to show fish arches. This plays an important role in a sonar unit's capability to show fish arches. The chart below lists the pixel sizes and area they represent down to 50 feet for two different screens.

PIXEL HEIGHT   PIXEL HEIGHT
100 VERTICAL PIXEL SCREEN   240 VERTICAL PIXEL SCREEN
RANGE PIXEL HEIGHT   RANGE PIXEL HEIGHT
0-10 feet 1.2 inches   0-10 feet 0.5 inches
0-20 feet 2.4 inches   0-20 feet 1.0 inches
0-30 feet 3.6 inches   0-30 feet 1.5 inches
0-40 feet 4.8 inches   0-40 feet 2.0 inches
0-50 feet 6.0 inches   0-50 feet 2.5 inches

As you can see, one pixel represents a larger volume of water with the unit in the 0 - 100 foot range than it does with the unit in the 0 - 10 foot range. For example, if a sonar has 100 pixels vertically, with a range of 0 - 100 feet, each pixel is equal to a depth of 12 inches. A fish would have to be pretty large to show up as an arch at this range. However, if you zoom the range to a 30-foot zoom (for example from 80 to 110 feet), each pixel is now equal to 3.6 inches. Now the same fish will probably be seen as an arch on the screen due to the zoom effect. The size of the arch depends on the size of the fish - a small fish will show as a small arch, a larger fish will make a larger arch, and so on. Using a sonar unit with a small number of vertical pixels in very shallow water, a fish directly off the bottom will appear as a straight line separate from the bottom. This is because of the limited number of dots at that depth. If you are in deep water (where the fish signal is displayed over a larger distance of boat travel), zooming the display into a 20 or 30 foot window around the bottom shows fish arches near the bottom or structure. This is because you have reduced the pixel size in a larger cone.

Chart Speed
The scrolling or chart speed can also affect the type of arch displayed on the screen. The faster the chart speed, the more pixels are turned on as the fish passes through the cone. This will help display a better fish arch. (However, the chart speed can be turned up too high. This stretches the arch out. Experiment with the chart speed until you find the setting that works best for you.)

Final Notes on Fish Arches
Very small fish probably will not arch at all. Because of water conditions such as heavy surface clutter or thermoclines, the sensitivity sometimes cannot be turned up enough to get fish arches. For the best results, turn the sensitivity up as high as possible without getting too much noise on the screen. In medium to deep water, this method should work to display fish arches.

A school of fish will appear as many different formations or shapes, depending on how much of the school is within the transducer's cone. In shallow water, several fish close together appear like blocks that have been stacked in no apparent order. In deep water, each fish will arch according to its size.

Why Fish Arch
The reason fish show as an arch is because of the relationship between the fish and the cone angle of the transducer as the boat passes over the fish. As the leading edge of the cone strikes the fish, a display pixel is turned on. As the boat passes over the fish, the distance to the fish decreases. This turns each pixel on at a shallower depth on the display. When the center of the cone is directly over the fish, the first half of the arch is formed. This is also the shortest distance to the fish. Since the fish is closer to the boat, the signal is stronger and the arch is thicker. As the boat moves away from the fish, the distance increases and the pixels appear at progressively deeper depths until the cone passes the fish.

If the fish doesn't pass directly through the center of the cone, the arch won't be as well defined. Since the fish isn't in the cone very long, there aren't as many echoes to display, and the ones that do show are weaker. This is one of the reasons it's difficult to show fish arches in shallow water. The cone angle is too narrow for the signal to arch.

Remember, there must be movement between the boat and the fish to develop an arch. Usually, this means trolling at a slow speed with the main engine. If you are anchored or stopped, fish signals won't arch. Instead, they'll show as horizontal lines as they swim in and out of the cone.

 


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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Maybe a guy can use the fish symbol icon with alarm.  Then when you fall asleep while fishing you can be alarmed when I fish comes in!

Heh, heh, heh.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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I thought that side or structure scan could be used sitting still... On the ice. No?

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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Funny Tim. But I've actually used my fish alarm feature at night before. Not w the fish symbol tho. Gotta have sensitivity way down so the jig don't set it off tho. Fish alarm and bells on the rod ends have woke me up many a times. Oh to be single again... Nothing like some stovetop coffee, and a good face wash and tooth brushing in the ice hole before heading off to work in the morning.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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espringers Said:
I thought that side or structure scan could be used sitting still... On the ice. No?

I am pretty darn sure it is just like sonar.  You need to be moving.  But I won't completely go all in.

If it is true you can use it and get the same quality I will DEFINITELY be utilizing it for some things.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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Tim Sandstrom Said:

espringers Said:
I thought that side or structure scan could be used sitting still... On the ice. No?

I am pretty darn sure it is just like sonar.  You need to be moving.  But I won't completely go all in.

If it is true you can use it and get the same quality I will DEFINITELY be utilizing it for some things.

 I hope this thread keep going until I get educated ,  I am confused right now.

 

 

 

Life is good
 

 

 

 

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Tim Sandstrom Said:

espringers Said:
I thought that side or structure scan could be used sitting still... On the ice. No?

I don't know.  I assumed no but until enlightened I won't take that as gospel.

I've used it in the boat(while stationary) and the regular sonar pics up your jig and works way better.  Structure scan was designed to project images on the move(trolling, drifting).  The cone is actually very wide and narrow and not really a cone at all as it is more of a stretched out oval.  Also lugging around the LSS box and getting an arm to hold the long and flat transducer would be a bit of an inconvenience. 

"Diligence is the mother of good luck."

"The constitution only gives people the right to pursue hapiness.  You have to catch it yourself."

"Well done is better than well said."

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

All by:  Benjamin Franklin.

"The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the bigger the problem, the longer the trip should be."

Author: John Gierach

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Yes, Jim, throwing a moving downscan graph in here amongst an ice fishing discussion is not only unfair, but it'll make some people's head explode. I've watched the side-scan when my boat is rotating or sitting still and it is, as Jim Lahey would say, a $hiticane.

The only way to do side-scan in an ice hole would be to rotate the transducer slowly and smoothly so that the two narrow "blades" of sidescan's sonar would act in same fashion as radar... thereby achieving the movement required via rotation.

But the "speed" of the bottom scan increases with the distance away from the hole... so the image would be pretty "morphed". For instance a 2 foot wide boulder at 20 feet from the hole would look 4 feet wide if it was 40 feet from the hole (center of rotation).

I've often daydreamed about finding suspended crappie that way though.

 

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Imagine rotating this towfish's two narrow "blades" of sonar instead of towing straight ahead. Digital manipulation would be required to make sense of it. I think that is what Hummingbirds 360 thingy must do. Rotates the sonar "blades"... then manipulates the image so it makes sense to the human brain.

 

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SHORTHAIRSRUS Said:
Guiys ---- we are going to END IT ALL HERE

UNO --- we know that alot of you grew up with flashers.   I grew up with them too --- ie the old green box.    If flashers are the ticket --- then why dont you have them on your boat today???

DOS - Active matrix --- what we have in computer monitors -- that is what lorwance and the birds are using on the screens --- they are tft -- super fast response time.   I see the same thing you see on the flasher at the same time.

TRES -- flashers have a 9 degree cone --- and have the edge in the deep water.  I dont fish that deep and like my 20.  Does anybody know if you can get a 9 for a lorwance?

BOTTOM LINE --- it comes down to being stubborn for the vex guys and the graph guys are just saying we like the advancement.    Tim --- your best bet is to buy a new graph for that boat and take the old one and start ice fishing.    What better excuse to put on a graph on da boat.    Get ready for this summer when i come up the the BIG SAK and show you alls up.

GNITE --- Short

I will never change from a vex because i feel the future of ice fishing lies in the use of perch eyes and irish circle dances at Eds Bait shop when the Beneshefskys (sp?) show up.

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Tim Sandstrom Said:
 How do you see them coming in?  Don't you just see a line from right to left?  That was what I saw in graph mode. 

Hey Tim - 
  I can't help feeling like you have the impression there is some "third dimension"  that is coming into play here.  I could be wrong and just adding confusion, but for the sake of fun... let's see if I can add anything useful.
  A key point to remember is that flashers and graphs are showing a 2D view of a 3D world.  They work the same on the business end.  A ping is sent out and returned once it hits something.  The display cannot tell you if the object causing the return is coming from righ or left, ahead or behind.  Don't think of it as measuring depth - think of it as measuring the DISTANCE from your ducer to the target.  If I recall correctly,  with a 20 degree cone in 20 ft of water -  at the bottom you have a circle about six ft in diameter.   Here is a scenario: 
     You are holding your jig 2 ft off the bottom.  Imagine the face of a clock on the bottom of the lake.  The jig (directly under the ducer) is in the middle of the face of the clock.  A fish at 1ft off the bottom swims in from 9 o clock and exits the circle at 3 o clock and never changes depth. 
  On a flasher you see your jig at 18 ft.  When the fish enters the cone, the "bottom" starts to "bubble" even though the fish is not on the bottom (remember DISTANCE not depth).  As it gets closer to the jig it also gets closer to the ducer and therefore looks as though it is raising up toward your jig.  Once the line green line of your jig and the red line of the fish meet  -they are at the same distance from the ducer and the magic is gonna happen.   But, alas,  this fish never changes depth and the lines don't meet. He keeps going and as he leaves appears to go back down to the bottom - but actually only gets further from the ducer. 
  On a graph - this looks pretty much exactly the same. You "see them come in" just like on a flasher.   Your jig is a flat line (until you jig it) at 18ft.  The bottom is a dead-flat line at 20 ft.    The instant a single PIXEL changes on the bottom, you know there was motion on the bottom.  As the fish comes in and swims away, it shows an arc, even though his depth was the same.
    I said all that to say this:  I think what us "graphers" like is the "picture" you get from those lines.  It is easier to interpret  that picture when you have history.  As an example:  If you are fishing in 8 ft of water and a fish barely ticks the edge of your sonar "cone" - that could mean there was an interested fish within just a couple feet of your lure.  Thats valuable information to me.  That situation is depicted by a very brief "bubble" from green to yellow on a flasher.  On a graph the pixels change on the bottom and it is more obvious for a longer time.  Just one example.
   You probably already knew much or all of this - but maybe it will help someone.
  In the long run... to each their own.  Both work well. 

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The x-axis on a graph is always time. If the puck is moving at a fixed speed the x-axis can be interpreted as distance. If sitting still it's simply elapsed time. Pretty simple really. A graph shows what both a graph and flasher see... over time, from right to left. A flasher just doesn't leave a snail's trail like a graph.

 

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if jim can post that --- then lets get right down the the nitty on this.   Yes i can see em comin and and see em leaving my jiggy

Stay thirsty my friends

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guywhofishes Said:
The x-axis on a graph is always time. If the puck is moving at a fixed speed the x-axis can be interpreted as distance. If sitting still it's simply elapsed time. Pretty simple really. A graph shows what both a graph and flasher see... over time, from right to left. A flasher just doesn't leave a snail's trail like a graph.

    This is a good way to explain it too.

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I think its funny how much emphasis is being put into ice fishing graphs.  My FL-8 vexilar from 1995 that i bought used out of the Jamestown sun does everything you need.  It will mark any fish that is below the hole.  I did get the fl-18 back in 2000 when it came out and still use it today and love it.  Drilling holes and finding fish means way more than any fancy graph and a good gps is a must.

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Tim Sandstrom Said:
Jim,

I read most of that on the Lowrance website.

But I think it should very much be pointed out that Ahab is right.  Until technology advances to a "radar" type approach I don't see you getting anything other than lines scrolling from right to left on your graph.

Or are you telling me downscan and sidescan can draw you a picture like that sitting still?  If so, shoot me a video because I know you don't use a flip phone judging by your comments. 

A graph display is simply better than a flasher display in every respect, and you can learn more with the graphs we have currently available. You can continue to use a flasher if you like, but the future of ice sonar is not going to be a flasher display. 

I posted the downscan image to make the point that a flasher display isn't capable of showing anything remotely detailed as that.  And I wouldn't say that broad band scanning doesn't have a place in ice fishing either.  You might want to look at a downscan image of a jigging spoon in 50' FOW before you say that.  Nobody has marketed the right transducer/display yet, but it's coming.  Imagine if you could see the dorsal fin on a walleye, would you continue to use a flasher display?  Most fisherman will not...

Eastman Kodak Co. products used to be the most widely distributed consumer products in the world, but when was the last time you bought a roll of film?  Any company that thinks that flasher display is the future of ice sonar will be going the way of Kodak. 

Jim Carroll  NPAA #13

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I have only got to fish in my ice house for 1-2 hours in the evening for the last 4 or 5 days or so. But, I can assure u there have been a few dozen "marks" I saw w my graph that I would not have seen w my flasher cause I was fiddling w something else at the time the fish appeared. My graph has about 25-30 seconds of history on the screen. And it comes in very handy. Of course if u only use a flasher, u wouldn't even know what u were missing.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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cast&blast Said:

Tim Sandstrom Said:
 How do you see them coming in?  Don't you just see a line from right to left?  That was what I saw in graph mode. 

Hey Tim - 
  I can't help feeling like you have the impression there is some "third dimension"  that is coming into play here.  I could be wrong and just adding confusion, but for the sake of fun... let's see if I can add anything useful.
  A key point to remember is that flashers and graphs are showing a 2D view of a 3D world.  They work the same on the business end.  A ping is sent out and returned once it hits something.  The display cannot tell you if the object causing the return is coming from righ or left, ahead or behind.  Don't think of it as measuring depth - think of it as measuring the DISTANCE from your ducer to the target.  If I recall correctly,  with a 20 degree cone in 20 ft of water -  at the bottom you have a circle about six ft in diameter.   Here is a scenario: 
     You are holding your jig 2 ft off the bottom.  Imagine the face of a clock on the bottom of the lake.  The jig (directly under the ducer) is in the middle of the face of the clock.  A fish at 1ft off the bottom swims in from 9 o clock and exits the circle at 3 o clock and never changes depth. 
  On a flasher you see your jig at 18 ft.  When the fish enters the cone, the "bottom" starts to "bubble" even though the fish is not on the bottom (remember DISTANCE not depth).  As it gets closer to the jig it also gets closer to the ducer and therefore looks as though it is raising up toward your jig.  Once the line green line of your jig and the red line of the fish meet  -they are at the same distance from the ducer and the magic is gonna happen.   But, alas,  this fish never changes depth and the lines don't meet. He keeps going and as he leaves appears to go back down to the bottom - but actually only gets further from the ducer. 
  On a graph - this looks pretty much exactly the same. You "see them come in" just like on a flasher.   Your jig is a flat line (until you jig it) at 18ft.  The bottom is a dead-flat line at 20 ft.    The instant a single PIXEL changes on the bottom, you know there was motion on the bottom.  As the fish comes in and swims away, it shows an arc, even though his depth was the same.
    I said all that to say this:  I think what us "graphers" like is the "picture" you get from those lines.  It is easier to interpret  that picture when you have history.  As an example:  If you are fishing in 8 ft of water and a fish barely ticks the edge of your sonar "cone" - that could mean there was an interested fish within just a couple feet of your lure.  Thats valuable information to me.  That situation is depicted by a very brief "bubble" from green to yellow on a flasher.  On a graph the pixels change on the bottom and it is more obvious for a longer time.  Just one example.
   You probably already knew much or all of this - but maybe it will help someone.
  In the long run... to each their own.  Both work well. 

I understand as you have explained and I agree, this perhaps is really the sole benefit of a graph but I will argue I know the history with the flasher just the same.  In otherwords, I know the fish entered my cone and left depending on what the flasher is showing me.  I am a bigger fan of the "fish bubbling" via a flasher as it is a little more intuitive to me instead of staring at pixels trying to see if they turn colors.

Maybe the Marcum was junk but I did stare at that graph hoping I'd see some sign a fish was coming into my beam-me-up-scotty but I always found myself gravitating back to the showdown theme to get my information (and it actually didn't fish bubble very good especially on bottom zoom).

In the end, I was using the graph to show me history I already knew that happened because I was the one jigging.  I know what I did with my jigging rod.  I'll give it to people you can see a history if you look away but it is brief in my opinion so I'm not sold completely on its over-riding importance.  How I used the Marcum was I fished in the present with the showdown because it just gave me more intuitive information instead of staring at the wall (the right side of the graph) waiting for a line to appear to tell me a fish was down there).  I basically used the graph to show me a jarbled mess of lines when a fish was caught or he left I watched him arc (kinda arc, it was more of a long continued dipping line).  It provided me no value over watching the line on my flasher fade away to the bottom of the screen.  In my opinion anyway.

So really, in the end, I would use a Lowrance just the same as I was using the Marcum.  I'd use the flasher or showdown theme to do my present intreprations and look at the graph every now and then when I wanted to add some color to my life.  So for that reason, I figure I might as well just get a flasher that is solely dedicated to ice fishing.  I'd have stuck with Vex but they keep clinging to the dial text versus digital reading like the 'bird.

As you said, to each their own and they obviously both work.  I'm just using this forum to have a big ole discussion and I think we are getting some pretty need information for people (obviously me included) to review for years to come.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
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Jim Carroll Said:

Tim Sandstrom Said:
Jim,

I read most of that on the Lowrance website.

But I think it should very much be pointed out that Ahab is right.  Until technology advances to a "radar" type approach I don't see you getting anything other than lines scrolling from right to left on your graph.

Or are you telling me downscan and sidescan can draw you a picture like that sitting still?  If so, shoot me a video because I know you don't use a flip phone judging by your comments. 

A graph display is simply better than a flasher display in every respect, and you can learn more with the graphs we have currently available. You can continue to use a flasher if you like, but the future of ice sonar is not going to be a flasher display. 

I posted the downscan image to make the point that a flasher display isn't capable of showing anything remotely detailed as that.  And I wouldn't say that broad band scanning doesn't have a place in ice fishing either.  You might want to look at a downscan image of a jigging spoon in 50' FOW before you say that.  Nobody has marketed the right transducer/display yet, but it's coming.  Imagine if you could see the dorsal fin on a walleye, would you continue to use a flasher display?  Most fisherman will not...

Eastman Kodak Co. products used to be the most widely distributed consumer products in the world, but when was the last time you bought a roll of film?  Any company that thinks that flasher display is the future of ice sonar will be going the way of Kodak. 

Jim Carroll  NPAA #13

Hi Jim,

I always enjoy your posts but we are talking the present here.  I'm not going to log around an HDS with structure scan and set up the time to drill extra holes, etc to try and invent a way to make it work in a stationary environment.

All a graph has done at the present is brought a little color and pixels into the ice fishing world.  It tells me nothing I don't already know using a flasher.  I know history is a selling point but what if I want to see the history of a fish and my jigging cadence from 15 minutes ago?  Not possible.

I know what I am doing with my jigging rod because in the present I am telling my arm, wrist and fingers what to do.  I then watch it in a more intuitive manner via a flasher versus right to left scrolling (I know some will argue that).  The fish tells me in the present what it liked or didn't like.  And in just a couple seconds the history of what just went done scrolls to the other black hole on the left side of the screen.

I won't argue with you that the future might offer neater technology but with all the technology today it still hasn't provided enough convincing persuation to move from the flasher for ice fishing.

Long ago the technology made flashers obsolete in most open water environments but it still hasn't been able to take down the ice world.  They are definitely trying though!

Perhaps in the future a change will come that makes me want to switch.  Honestly, I can tell you what that would be and that would be imaging like down or structure scan.  In other words, when the graphs can show me basically the equivelant of a video game below where I can watch a fish show up, it swim to me and as it bites then I will definitely be on board.

Right now, that actually does kind of exist.  It is a camera but for years and years cameras haven't taken a big hold either.  They are more of a luxury item in my opinion in many instances (at least the instances I find myself in).  Maybe it would be different if I was in a clear water pan fishing lake.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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What they need to invent is a "scrolling ball transducer" that when you dangle it below the hole it actually moves itself in a constant speed and direction.  Or maybe that wouldn't work, I'd have to think about it...

Just a toilet seat thought (iPhones are handy time taker-upers).


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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So after 17 pages, what's your brother thinking now?

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I think alot of the arguements on using HD graphs for ice fishing is people justifying the huge expense so that they have a graph that "does it all". 

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Tim Sandstrom Said:
What they need to invent is a "scrolling ball transducer" that when you dangle it below the hole it actually moves itself in a constant speed and direction.  Or maybe that wouldn't work, I'd have to think about it...

Just a toilet seat thought (iPhones are handy time taker-upers).

What good does the history that a fish was there do you?  Do these HD graphs have a time machine App to go back and catch the fish?

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I would love to have an HD graph to mount on the Dash of my pickup, now that would be the ultimate just to have that for my GPS for ice fishing.

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i didn't think you had to be moving for the structure scan to work.  of course it would be worthless for a guy who is moving around.  but, i wouldn't mind having the structure scan stuff in my house at all times and just plug my machine in when i show up.  can someone explain to me if they would work sitting still and why or why not?  thanks.  

and you should be able to see the fish bubbling you speak of tim with your graph... the graph is just a different way of displaying the exact same sonar information... its your flasher info w/ a history.  i will go back and look at the pic you showed of your marcum and see what you are talking about again.  but, my lowrance has an amplitude bar with the real time sonar information on the far right hand of the graph.  it is the exact same information that any flasher shows... including bubbling... the rest is just a recording of that information.  

had some folks mention or ask y the recording is so important... until you've missed a mark numerous times and saw it on your graph, you probably won't understand.  but, i can assure you guys you are missing marks.  you might think you are looking at your flasher 100% of the time.  but, you aren't.  you are grabbing a beer, rigging another line, fucking around with your dogs, talking on your phone, taking a piss, messing with the radio, etc... in an ice house w/ friends, there are so many things going on that you are looking away a lot.  especially when things get slow.  since the flasher only shows you what is down there at this exact moment, even looking away for 5 seconds can mean you missed a mark.  

finally, i know you have a "recording" in your mind if you are looking at the flasher.  but, the graph makes it so easy to decipher that recording without even giving it any thought... it deciphers it and displays it for you and stays there for almost a full 30 seconds (in my case anyway).  when you have multiple fish and lures below the ice and you are trying to decipher how many fish there are, whose lure they are reacting to and how they are reacting individually... a graph and its recording is absolutely invaluable information in my opinion.  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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 no... it doesn't have some magic time machine app that allows you to go back and catch the fish.  but, it tells you there could still be one down there... and tells you maybe you should go pick up your stupid rod and jig it a little bit to see if you can't get him to come back and take another look see.  

and i certainly ain't having this discussion to justify the expense of my unit... i said unit again... lol.... cause i purchased my unit for my shitty ass 1979 16 foot mr. pike.  the fact that i get to use it on the ice is just an added bonus.  95% of the guys on this site already have a graph on their boat.  so, they wouldn't have to justify any expense other than the ice ducer.  if anything, i can make an darn good argument you guys need to justify your few hundred dollar flashers that you only use on the ice since you could just as easily go grab your graph off your boat and add a $100 ice ducer and go fishing and save yourself a few hundred dollars since you wouldn't have had to buy the fanciest flasher you could find.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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one more thing... i've got some friends who weren't raised on flasher technology.  but, over the years, they have learned how to use both the flasher and the graph... i leave my flasher in the permanent for them to use when i am not there.  when i am there, they use my graph if they are sitting on my side of the house... the guys on the other side of the house have my flasher.  without a doubt, if any of those guys were going fishing by themselves you put both of those units in front of them and say "pick one".... they will pick up my graph 100% of the time.  and that includes the 68 and 522 i used to have and the hds-7 i have now... hands down... in fact, since there brains are geared towards flashers already... they think the fact that we even have to have this discussion is absolutely laughable.  but, to each there own i guess.  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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Enslow Said:

Tim Sandstrom Said:
What they need to invent is a "scrolling ball transducer" that when you dangle it below the hole it actually moves itself in a constant speed and direction.  Or maybe that wouldn't work, I'd have to think about it...

Just a toilet seat thought (iPhones are handy time taker-upers).

What good does the history that a fish was there do you?  Do these HD graphs have a time machine App to go back and catch the fish?

For some it does something or serves them a purpose.  For me, I didn't have much value in it and why I swapped back to a pure flasher.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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espringers Said:
i didn't think you had to be moving for the structure scan to work.  of course it would be worthless for a guy who is moving around.  but, i wouldn't mind having the structure scan stuff in my house at all times and just plug my machine in when i show up.  can someone explain to me if they would work sitting still and why or why not?  thanks.  

and you should be able to see the fish bubbling you speak of tim with your graph... the graph is just a different way of displaying the exact same sonar information... its your flasher info w/ a history.  i will go back and look at the pic you showed of your marcum and see what you are talking about again.  but, my lowrance has an amplitude bar with the real time sonar information on the far right hand of the graph.  it is the exact same information that any flasher shows... including bubbling... the rest is just a recording of that information.  

had some folks mention or ask y the recording is so important... until you've missed a mark numerous times and saw it on your graph, you probably won't understand.  but, i can assure you guys you are missing marks.  you might think you are looking at your flasher 100% of the time.  but, you aren't.  you are grabbing a beer, rigging another line, fucking around with your dogs, talking on your phone, taking a piss, messing with the radio, etc... in an ice house w/ friends, there are so many things going on that you are looking away a lot.  especially when things get slow.  since the flasher only shows you what is down there at this exact moment, even looking away for 5 seconds can mean you missed a mark.  

finally, i know you have a "recording" in your mind if you are looking at the flasher.  but, the graph makes it so easy to decipher that recording without even giving it any thought... it deciphers it and displays it for you and stays there for almost a full 30 seconds (in my case anyway).  when you have multiple fish and lures below the ice and you are trying to decipher how many fish there are, whose lure they are reacting to and how they are reacting individually... a graph and its recording is absolutely invaluable information in my opinion.  

You don't have to be moving. But if you are not moving your detection zone is only where the "curtain" is made by the two narrow sonar blades. In the pic below you could have fish in the same spot as the boulder.... but since it is sitting still you won't see them UNTIL those fish swim through the narrow curtain OR if you rotated those two triangle shaped curtains of sonar until they passed through the fish. The it would show up.

Broadband's have of a cone shape (let's forget about lobes, etc. - who cares discussions such as these?). With a cone shape you can have fish anywhere within the 360 degree cone. You have no idea what direction but they are shown but they show up. When you see a fish "swim up" to your lure it is often just swimming OVER to your lure, not up. The deeper and wider the cone the more exaggerated this phenomenon. Note the fish never changed elevation - just nosed into cone - creating faint "green" reflection a greater distance away than the jig, and as it swam closer the reflection gets stronger (into stronger portion of cone) and "appears" to come up, when it didn't.

Here's a pic I drew cuz I struggle explaining to my friends/wife/etc.

GET READY TO SET THE HOOK, THE FISH IS "RISING TO THE BAIT"! HA HA

 

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espringers Said:

i didn't think you had to be moving for the structure scan to work.  of course it would be worthless for a guy who is moving around.  but, i wouldn't mind having the structure scan stuff in my house at all times and just plug my machine in when i show up.  can someone explain to me if they would work sitting still and why or why not?  thanks.  

Everywhere I read on the internet forums said you need to be moving.  People on slow drifts actually stated they had not as desired results as they'd like.  And as you and Ahab said, never an option for me unless something becomes much more portable.

and you should be able to see the fish bubbling you speak of tim with your graph... the graph is just a different way of displaying the exact same sonar information... its your flasher info w/ a history.  i will go back and look at the pic you showed of your marcum and see what you are talking about again.  but, my lowrance has an amplitude bar with the real time sonar information on the far right hand of the graph.  it is the exact same information that any flasher shows... including bubbling... the rest is just a recording of that information.  

If I could it wasn't as intuitive as a flasher bubbling.  A flasher bubbling is very easy to see.  With the flasher, it is sort of like seeing a deer running in the badlands, you catch movement.  With a graph it is sort of like starting at a hillside waiting for the sun to shine so you can see the hide of the deer stick out against common background colors.

had some folks mention or ask y the recording is so important... until you've missed a mark numerous times and saw it on your graph, you probably won't understand.  but, i can assure you guys you are missing marks.  you might think you are looking at your flasher 100% of the time.  but, you aren't.  you are grabbing a beer, rigging another line, f around with your dogs, talking on your phone, taking a piss, messing with the radio, etc... in an ice house w/ friends, there are so many things going on that you are looking away a lot.  especially when things get slow.  since the flasher only shows you what is down there at this exact moment, even looking away for 5 seconds can mean you missed a mark.  

Not sure why the f-bomb was needed but I can tell you this.  It would take a northern to zip by the cone for me not to see a fish on the flasher.  I'll put it this way since I seem to fail at getting it across.  At least with the Marcum how I had it set, the amount of time it would take for history to scroll right to left is maybe two to four seconds.  For a fish to cross my cone with a flasher and me not to see it, the fish would have to be traveling very fast.  Do fish do that at times?  Sure but most of the time, no.

So I cannot completly discount the history argument but I feel if you look away to grab a beer or do whatever for longer than 4 seconds you are going to miss the fish with a graph as well.

finally, i know you have a "recording" in your mind if you are looking at the flasher.  but, the graph makes it so easy to decipher that recording without even giving it any thought... it deciphers it and displays it for you and stays there for almost a full 30 seconds (in my case anyway).  when you have multiple fish and lures below the ice and you are trying to decipher how many fish there are, whose lure they are reacting to and how they are reacting individually... a graph and its recording is absolutely invaluable information in my opinion.  

I see in my previous response I guess you are able to see history for 30 second (that might be a little more helpful).  But to me, is the history of your cadence really helping you out?  What I saw on the Marcum was a bunch of up and down strokes.  When you jiggle it a little you see a massive clutter of pixels because it has a hard time showing you that target seperation especially with a minnow or minnow head.  So you really just see a blob-line.

I don't treat any fish the same way honestly.  I know if I caught a fish I will do what I did to catch the previous fish.  Most times you wait at least a couple minutes before the next bite (during even a hot bite).  So in that time, a graph will have its history removed.  More me, I usually just bang it on bottom, do a couple upstrokes, jiggle it and then repeat in some sort of fashion.  When a fish comes in, I will never find myself looking at the graph.  I will want to be looking at the flasher to see its immediate response and try to coax it up from the bottom.  So to me, the history isn't doing much for me because I'm not worried about the history I am worried about the present.  And just from catching the previous fish I have a pretty good idea how to jig to get another to bite.  No different than the boat.  I don't see my history while slowly drifting a jig from the long rod.  Instead, I remember from the previous fish what seemed to work and I duplicate that effort.

But that is my fishing style, not yours.  I will never take away or discount what you are getting to work for you.  If history of 30 seconds or less works for you then by all means keep on keepin on. 


 

 

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Tim Sandstrom's picture
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guywhofishes Said:
You don't have to be moving. But if you are not moving your detection zone is only where the "curtain" is made by the two narrow sonar blades. In the pic below you could have fish in the same spot as the boulder.... but since it is sitting still you won't see them UNTIL those fish swim through the narrow curtain OR if you rotated those two triangle shaped curtains of sonar until they passed through the fish. The it would show up.

Broadband's have of a cone shape (let's forget about lobes, etc. - who cares discussions such as these?). With a cone shape you can have fish anywhere within the 360 degree cone. You have no idea what direction but they are shown but they show up. When you see a fish "swim up" to your lure it is often just swimming OVER to your lure, not up. The deeper and wider the cone the more exaggerated this phenomenon. Note the fish never changed elevation - just nosed into cone - creating faint "green" reflection a greater distance away than the jig, and as it swam closer the reflection gets stronger (into stronger portion of cone) and "appears" to come up, when it didn't.

Here's a pic I drew cuz I struggle explaining to my friends/wife/etc.

GET READY TO SET THE HOOK, THE FISH IS "RISING TO THE BAIT"! HA HA

Well that is what I meant.  You won't be able to see anything until it already happened because it requires it to pass through the curtain (I think that is what you called it).  We just need laser beams shooting into the water to detect if it has crossed the grid set in 1 foot increments.  Then we can track if he came from left or right.  Ha!

And as for your graphic, that is a nice way to help explain.  And it is the reason to me it is more intuitive than a graph.  The colors tell you things and you see them more "live" because you are not waiting for the blackhole on the right to start sending you a line over your graph to tell you a fish is there.

Of course, I guess the "bubbling" is available per espringers but I just found it much more intuitive and responsive with the flasher.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
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So does the Lowrance Elite 5 DSI need anything different for ice fishing?  I'd imagine you would have to use the DI transducer (rather than the ice ducer) which could be difficult.  The DI has much better target seperation in the boat, so I think it would transfer over and work pretty well for ice fishing.  Anyone tried it?


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walleyes n whitetails Said:
So does the Lowrance Elite 5 DSI need anything different for ice fishing?  I'd imagine you would have to use the DI transducer (rather than the ice ducer) which could be difficult.  The DI has much better target seperation in the boat, so I think it would transfer over and work pretty well for ice fishing.  Anyone tried it?

I actually do not fully understand why there is a difference.  But no, I did a quick search and I wasn't finding much.  Gotta be info out there for this.

Down scan to me is pretty intriguing and I am pretty sure while in the boat I'd be using it way more than I'd be using the structure or side scan.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
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walleyes n whitetails's picture
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Tim Sandstrom Said:

walleyes n whitetails Said:
So does the Lowrance Elite 5 DSI need anything different for ice fishing?  I'd imagine you would have to use the DI transducer (rather than the ice ducer) which could be difficult.  The DI has much better target seperation in the boat, so I think it would transfer over and work pretty well for ice fishing.  Anyone tried it?

I actually do not fully understand why there is a difference.  But no, I did a quick search and I wasn't finding much.  Gotta be info out there for this.

Down scan to me is pretty intriguing and I am pretty sure while in the boat I'd be using it way more than I'd be using the structure or side scan.

Without a doubt you would use down scan more than side scan.

This from the description of the Elite 5 DSI:
"Dual-selectable 455/800kHz coverage offers two viewing options; 455kHz sounding for wider and deeper coverage with 800kHz for enhanced targeted viewing."

This compares to the HDS:
"Built-in broadband high-definition sonar

83/200kHz or 50/200kHz transducer"

Not really sure what all the means.  Don't have time to look into it now. Gotta go


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Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
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Ok, now let's throw one in the mix that would work for seeing fish around you, but not so much for marking fish about to bite.  Hummingbird's 360 imaging.  If you ran a compatible Hummingbird unit you could add this for a measly 2 grand(ha).  I have read about it in In-fish.  Carry on.

"Diligence is the mother of good luck."

"The constitution only gives people the right to pursue hapiness.  You have to catch it yourself."

"Well done is better than well said."

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

All by:  Benjamin Franklin.

"The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the bigger the problem, the longer the trip should be."

Author: John Gierach

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Captain Ahab Said:
Ok, now let's throw one in the mix that would work for seeing fish around you, but not so much for marking fish about to bite.  Hummingbird's 360 imaging.  If you ran a compatible Hummingbird unit you could add this for a measly 2 grand(ha).  I have read about it in In-fish.  Carry on.

The future!


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 

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