The End All Discussion On Ice Fishing Sonar / Flashers

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espringers's picture
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 yes you can tell fish size, lure size, watch your lure spin, your minnow flutter, etc.. its the exact same information as a flasher... w/ a recording.  

even in jim's video, without the amplitude bar, the far right hand side of the screen is essentially real time.  like he said... when you watch him jig his line, it shows up in real time if all you focus on is the far right hand side of the screen.  but, if you let your mind get cluttered with what is on the rest of the screen, its might be hard to tell that.  i watched when he set the hook like he requested and the far right hand side of the screen shows that hook set as soon as he does it.  

after umpteen pages of posts, i've gotten to the point where i can tell this really is about some guys just not being used to reading what they are seeing on a graph.  from what i can tell, the recording is kind of annoying or useless information for you flasher folks.  i guess i can and will accept that.  but, i find very valuable information in that recorded information.  

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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espringers Said:
 yes you can tell fish size, lure size, watch your lure spin, your minnow flutter, etc.. its the exact same information as a flasher... w/ a recording.  

even in jim's video, without the amplitude bar, the far right hand side of the screen is essentially real time.  like he said... when you watch him jig his line, it shows up in real time if all you focus on is the far right hand side of the screen.  but, if you let your mind get cluttered with what is on the rest of the screen, its might be hard to tell that.  i watched when he set the hook like he requested and the far right hand side of the screen shows that hook set as soon as he does it.  

after umpteen pages of posts, i've gotten to the point where i can tell this really is about some guys just not being used to reading what they are seeing on a graph.  from what i can tell, the recording is kind of annoying or useless information for you flasher folks.  i guess i can and will accept that.  but, i find very valuable information in that recorded information.  

Just walk away espringer! Just walk away! Break the circle that keeps going round and round!

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sdwxman Said:
 

espringers Said:
 yes you can tell fish size, lure size, watch your lure spin, your minnow flutter, etc.. its the exact same information as a flasher... w/ a recording.  

even in jim's video, without the amplitude bar, the far right hand side of the screen is essentially real time.  like he said... when you watch him jig his line, it shows up in real time if all you focus on is the far right hand side of the screen.  but, if you let your mind get cluttered with what is on the rest of the screen, its might be hard to tell that.  i watched when he set the hook like he requested and the far right hand side of the screen shows that hook set as soon as he does it.  

after umpteen pages of posts, i've gotten to the point where i can tell this really is about some guys just not being used to reading what they are seeing on a graph.  from what i can tell, the recording is kind of annoying or useless information for you flasher folks.  i guess i can and will accept that.  but, i find very valuable information in that recorded information.  

Just walk away espringer! Just walk away! Break the circle that keeps going round and round!

We win!!  haha  j/k

I just don't see enough positivies of the graph to switch.  If it was so night and day better, all the guides and pros would be using them.  When graph technology takes that next BIG step, then I'll reconsider.  I guess we could have a FBO graph vs flasher fishing tourney and settle this once and for all.....

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sdwxman Said:
 
espringers Said:
 yes you can tell fish size, lure size, watch your lure spin, your minnow flutter, etc.. its the exact same information as a flasher... w/ a recording.  

even in jim's video, without the amplitude bar, the far right hand side of the screen is essentially real time.  like he said... when you watch him jig his line, it shows up in real time if all you focus on is the far right hand side of the screen.  but, if you let your mind get cluttered with what is on the rest of the screen, its might be hard to tell that.  i watched when he set the hook like he requested and the far right hand side of the screen shows that hook set as soon as he does it.  

after umpteen pages of posts, i've gotten to the point where i can tell this really is about some guys just not being used to reading what they are seeing on a graph.  from what i can tell, the recording is kind of annoying or useless information for you flasher folks.  i guess i can and will accept that.  but, i find very valuable information in that recorded information.  

Just walk away espringer! Just walk away! Break the circle that keeps going round and round!

I know a few guys down in Mobridge who did better with their Vexilars than a few guys who were using graphs... *cough cough*

Seriously though, they're both great tools to have out on the ice and you will do better using one then without. I don't think graphs are vastly superior to flashers when they both have the transducer down the hole. The available gps is a whole different argument in my eyes.  

I was able to find my spot like Kurt did but I used my iphone with Navionics map to get me there.

There is a lot of personal preference here. If you are fishing a flasher I don't think there is enough superiority for you to drop the dough and buy a graph, but if you have a graph in your boat and no flasher then you can save some money by utilizing it year round. 

We are at the point where it's like the "what's the best deer caliber" thread and we've all established that you can kill a deer easier with a bullet than a stick and everyone is splitting hairs. 

J

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fisherman25 Said:
 I guess we could have a FBO graph vs flasher fishing tourney and settle this once and for all.....

I would LOVE to see this happen!



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Lets talks tourneys --- better subject ---- West, East and then East vs. West

Dont forget about summer either

Stay thirsty my friends

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I just can't imagine missing out on that big red blob coming up and whacking the lure. 

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ttt :)

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So I was seriously laying in bed when I thought of this (no kidding, I was).  As many of you know I like to think about things (over think them perhaps).  Kick tires, etc.  Sorry, it is just me.  I never use to have enough money to do anything or buy anything but now I have just a little to play with from time to time (not as often as I'd like though).  So that changes some of my tire kicking.  Anyway, point is, usually when I buy something or commit to something I want to be sure I exhausted the efforts to get something I will like.

Why was I thinking about this?  Well, I couldn't figure out how to tell people that what they see on the graph is NOT real-time.  Or how in the heck Jim can stomach not using the amplitude feature.  I used that all the time when I had my Vex Edge to assist in telling me when structure was about to change (strangly, I didn't fire it up on the HDS unit I borrowed last year).  This aided me in turning the boat accordingly while pulling cranks.  In otherwords, gave me a heads up that structure was about to change instead of me having to read the history of what already happened from the graph scrolling right to left.  Perhaps I should have thought to said this all along but I was just too "overwhelmed" and had brain lock or something.

Anyway, I figured, "the lowrance user manuals MUST explain the amplitude right?"  Well, they do perfectly and they support what I have been saying all along.  The graph simply does not show you real-time.  Sure, it is close but close only counts in horseshoes!!!

Here are some screen shots of the Lowrance manual for the Elite 5:

http://www.lowrance.com/Root/Lowrance-Documents/ELITE_OM_EN_988-0180-01_A_w.pdf

Page 17 (page 19 in PDF):

Page 24 (page 26 on PDF):

Now I know some on here already understand this (graphers included) but it just brings me a peace of mind providing this to those that didn't quite grasp it.

So my final chapter is coming close to an end with this discussion.  I will see if I can seek out walleyes and whitetails to take a look at his graph and watch the amplitude.  I haven't used it in "vertical jigging" methods before so I have been taking people's words on it.  Why am I saying this?  I'm not sure of its "friendliness" over the showdown or the flasher.  Or at least enough to warrant me buying a specific graph for the boat/ice fishing, get a case for it, a trandsducer and then still deal with button pushing when moving from hole to hole.  And of course moving it from boat to ice each year.  And as I said, I'm not that nice on stuff.  Tis why I invented a way I could be careless yet careful at the same time!  I hate having to drive 8 mph across the ice for miles at a time so I don't beat stuff to death.  When I get home, I just pull the ice house in the garage and everything is there too instead of unstrapping from wheeler, etc.  Yeah, I know, fussy guy but to me the easier something is the more I will do it and do it with enjoyment instead of sighs of frustration.

And I admit, I didn't get to watching the videos last night.  I was drawing my upstairs in my house to scale for some house projects and cost estimates.  Then sat down to watch a few mule deer DVR shows.

Anyway, thought I'd share.  Later, gators...I'm sure this won't be my last post.  It is like nut goodies at Christmas...I just can't stop eating them.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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i will say i need to look at my manual more as it seems i can refine what i see to an even better detail thanks for posting that.  if i really want to see a flasher i split screen it and it is like old times watching the marcum just with out having the blenders sound for 10 hours in the shack

 Adn

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Blender sound?  Oh gawd wheres my waders

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Im going fishing this weekend and wouldn't leave a lcd graph sitting under the tarp in the back end of pickup in this weather. 

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KurtR Said:
i will say i need to look at my manual more as it seems i can refine what i see to an even better detail thanks for posting that.  if i really want to see a flasher i split screen it and it is like old times watching the marcum just with out having the blenders sound for 10 hours in the shack

you have marcums and vexilars confused. Marcums dont make noise. Ive heard some vex's that sound like a little diesel engine lol

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

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Wags86 Said:

KurtR Said:
i will say i need to look at my manual more as it seems i can refine what i see to an even better detail thanks for posting that.  if i really want to see a flasher i split screen it and it is like old times watching the marcum just with out having the blenders sound for 10 hours in the shack

you have marcums and vexilars confused. Marcums dont make noise. Ive heard some vex's that sound like a little diesel engine lol

oh no i have a marcum that sounds like a black and decker in ice crunch mode.  It was the one they made for cabelas a few years ago.  I still get to listen to it though as my wife or son will use it when they go.  I will say i do love the bottom lock on it.

 Adn

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Haven't fished with a new flasher Marcum or Vexilar.  The old Vex I know could throw some noise.  But I know folks with new ones that don't hardly make a sound.  I can testify to the new Hummingbird that it hardly makes a sound.

But again, I don't sit in an ice house 8 times out of 10 I'm on the ice.  I am outside walking around from hole to hole and even with the "noisy" flasher I couldn't even hear it.  Maybe if it was dead quiet and no wind.

But if you don't like noise you wouldn't have liked me bending over to adjust my Marcum.  I was always grunting with all the clothes on, cussing because I had to take my gloves off to push buttons. 

Ha ha, I am coming to the conclusion a guy better add flashers and graphs to the category of things not to talk about in a bar! 


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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Tim - the pixels fire at the same time.  I've had this discussion at length with an engineer at Lowrance.  Use the A-scope if you like, for me it's meaningless.  I prefer to see the entire screen.

Again, there is no "lag" that your brain can process, or eye can see when a Lowrance HDS graph is properly set up for ice fishing. 

It takes a tiny fraction of a second for an HDS to process the sonar return and fire the pixels on the screen.  You can't see it.

Jim Carroll NPAA #13

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Jim Carroll Said:
Tim - the pixels fire at the same time.  I've had this discussion at length with an engineer at Lowrance.  Use the A-scope if you like, for me it's meaningless.  I prefer to see the entire screen.

Again, there is no "lag" that your brain can process, or eye can see when a Lowrance HDS graph is properly set up for ice fishing. 

It takes a tiny fraction of a second for an HDS to process the sonar return and fire the pixels on the screen.  You can't see it.

Jim Carroll NPAA #13

Is my brain special?  Heh, heh.

Seriously though, I haven't used in a Lowrance format but I have used it on my Vexilar Edge.  I can see structure change coming before it is displayed on the graph itself.  AT least in an intuitive manner.  If anything, at least the amplitude gives a intuitive heads up.

I'll go read Vex's manual.  I think for the heck of it I will contact Lowrance too.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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I wouldn't trade my FL-8 for anything.

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Lmfao.... Well we sure have settled this issue. Good stuff.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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just read every page of this again and now my head hurts. i dont hear my vex "blender sound" cuz i have the radio on or im drinking and all i hear is beer cans rattle in the sled of my portable.

cant drink all day unless you start in the morning.
Im only one man
GET SOME!!!!!

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Road Island is niether a road or an island, discuss.....

"Diligence is the mother of good luck."

"The constitution only gives people the right to pursue hapiness.  You have to catch it yourself."

"Well done is better than well said."

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

All by:  Benjamin Franklin.

"The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the bigger the problem, the longer the trip should be."

Author: John Gierach

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Tim if you look at what is showing up on the amplitude scope it is the exact same level as what is being shown on the display.

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Theres something about an FL-8 and a FL 18, 20 or 22.  When used together, for some reason schools of fish always seem to appear on my FL-8.  Fish every where and at all depths.  Just can't seem to catch the fish though.  Frustrating.  My 8 must be better than the newer ones because my fishing partners don't mark all of the fish I mark.

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wood duck 30 Said:

Theres something about an FL-8 and a FL 18, 20 or 22.  When used together, for some reason schools of fish always seem to appear on my FL-8.  Fish every where and at all depths.  Just can't seem to catch the fish though.  Frustrating.  My 8 must be better than the newer ones because my fishing partners don't mark all of the fish I mark.

best post on this whole thread.   just keep jigging they will bite

 Adn

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Jim Carroll Said:
Tim - the pixels fire at the same time.  I've had this discussion at length with an engineer at Lowrance.  Use the A-scope if you like, for me it's meaningless.  I prefer to see the entire screen.

Again, there is no "lag" that your brain can process, or eye can see when a Lowrance HDS graph is properly set up for ice fishing. 

It takes a tiny fraction of a second for an HDS to process the sonar return and fire the pixels on the screen.  You can't see it.

Jim Carroll NPAA #13

Yes, but only a very narrow 1-3 pixel wide area at the right edge "fires at the same time".

So unless you have hawk eyes the amplitude bar IS necessary if you want to see what's happening at same speed and ease as a flasher.

It may well be that "real time" isn't a hang up for you (nor I for that matter) but for those that want "real time" the amplitude bar is not "meaningless". That amplitude bar or A-scope is maybe 50 pixels wide (easy to see and focus on). The "real time" pixels on the scrolling graph, in contrast, are narrower than a toothpick, pretty hard to focus on the right 1mm of the graph's screen.

 

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goosehunter90 Said:
Tim if you look at what is showing up on the amplitude scope it is the exact same level as what is being shown on the display.

Then why do they make it available?  And why do they quote in their manual what they do?

I've used it in the open water.  I liked it because it gave me a heads up quicker than what I could get out of the blackhole scroll from right to left.  Loved the graph to show me what the structure looked like AFTER I drove over it (or while) but for a heads up I enjoyed the amplitude.

IDK.  I don't feel like sitting on the phone with Lowrance at the moment.  Maybe next week.  I gotta get back to work.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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holy avatars kurt!  you and a few others are due for a scolding... but, definitely not from me.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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guywhofishes Said:

Jim Carroll Said:
Tim - the pixels fire at the same time.  I've had this discussion at length with an engineer at Lowrance.  Use the A-scope if you like, for me it's meaningless.  I prefer to see the entire screen.

Again, there is no "lag" that your brain can process, or eye can see when a Lowrance HDS graph is properly set up for ice fishing. 

It takes a tiny fraction of a second for an HDS to process the sonar return and fire the pixels on the screen.  You can't see it.

Jim Carroll NPAA #13

Yes, but only a very narrow 1-3 pixel wide area at the right edge "fires at the same time".

So unless you have hawk eyes the amplitude bar IS necessary if you want to see what's happening at same speed and ease as a flasher.

It may well be that "real time" isn't a hang up for you (nor I for that matter) but for those that want "real time" the amplitude bar is not "meaningless". That amplitude bar or A-scope is maybe 50 pixels wide (easy to see and focus on). The "real time" pixels on the scrolling graph, in contrast, are narrower than a toothpick, pretty hard to focus on the right 1mm of the graph's screen.

I'm forced to believe what I read (it came out of Lowrance's manual).  And to me it just seems to make sense sicne I have seen it in action via the boat.  But if it is firing at the same-time I agree with guy, it just seems much more intuitive for the purposes of ice fishing.

But I am still hung on the fact Lowrance says:

"One the right side of the screen, the Amplitude Scope bar previews echoes about to appear on the display."

OR

Amplitude Scope
Displays the amplitude of real-time echos before they appear on the display.

--

Like I said, I am stuck on that.  IDK.  I agree, my head starting to hurt too.  Ha ha.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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espringers Said:
holy avatars kurt!  you and a few others are due for a scolding... but, definitely not from me.

 

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Those airbags would show up as big red on the vexilar!

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The amplitude bar is what I use to get as close as real time as possible in the summer.  It shows what is about to be printed just as it says in the manual Tim posted.  It shows your jig as a little "ball" and if the fish signal gets stronger, the fish "ball" gets bigger and changes shades. 

"Diligence is the mother of good luck."

"The constitution only gives people the right to pursue hapiness.  You have to catch it yourself."

"Well done is better than well said."

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

All by:  Benjamin Franklin.

"The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the bigger the problem, the longer the trip should be."

Author: John Gierach

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i had a guy try to convince me to use a lcd graph one time back in the late 90's when i was crappie fishing.   AFter i had about half a bucket of crappie and he had just a few the argument was over.

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goosehunter90 Said:
Tim if you look at what is showing up on the amplitude scope it is the exact same level as what is being shown on the display.

Yes, the first one or two pixels along the right edge... the rest are what happened fractions or many seconds later.

 

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This has to be the most thoroughly discussed topic on fbo ever

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

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guywhofishes Said:

goosehunter90 Said:
Tim if you look at what is showing up on the amplitude scope it is the exact same level as what is being shown on the display.

Yes, the first one or two pixels along the right edge... the rest are what happened fractions or many seconds later.

If you turn up the scroll speed it shows much more han one or two pixels.

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Name brand vs generic drugs anyone?

"Diligence is the mother of good luck."

"The constitution only gives people the right to pursue hapiness.  You have to catch it yourself."

"Well done is better than well said."

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

All by:  Benjamin Franklin.

"The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the bigger the problem, the longer the trip should be."

Author: John Gierach

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guywhofishes Said:


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Haha,  Don't club me to death like a baby seal,  This is just a joke but t his thread reminded me of one of Alberts quotes .    Laughter is the best medicine.  

The day that Albert Einstein feared may have finally arrived.

cid:75EA817483594BF680992D4C09894190@MarvinLHendrix

 

 

 

Life is good
 

 

 

 

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ttt ;)

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Ice Graphs SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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Vexilars are Number 1 Babay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Chant it with me Vexilars, Vexilars, Vexilars, Vexilars!

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Happy hour already?

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

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goosehunter90 Said:

guywhofishes Said:

goosehunter90 Said:
Tim if you look at what is showing up on the amplitude scope it is the exact same level as what is being shown on the display.

Yes, the first one or two pixels along the right edge... the rest are what happened fractions or many seconds later.

If you turn up the scroll speed it shows much more han one or two pixels.

Speeding the scroll rate up makes it more pixels per second elapsed time but still VERY few compared to the Amplitude bar no matter how fast.

BESIDES, that then greatly reduces the valuable history the graphers tout. Seems the graphers want to claim same great aspects of both an instant readout AND a nice history of what's been swimming by. You can't have both UNLESS you slow the scroll down and display the Amplitude bar. Saying you can have it all without the Amplitude bar turned on is what I was arguing about (with Jim C.) and saying you can have best of both worlds at the same time isn't dealing in the facts.

RANT HERE:
Listen - I've been dealing with some of the highest tech, highest speed analog-to-difital converters, transducers, operational amplifiers, logic, displays, pixels, etc. for 25 years.

I write multi-thousand line code telling the displays exactly what pixels to color what/when, what widths, times spans, voltages etc. they represent, etc. right down to machine code level.

And my "real time" time spans are 300 nanoseconds (that's billionths of a second for you guys out in Williston).

So don't tell me how this stuff works you lil whipper snappers!!!!!

 

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Vexilars Rule!

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Wags86
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Joined: 12/14/10

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
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GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07
YELLING AT CLOUD CONT'D:
See attached an example of my work. Isn't it a thing of beauty?

What - don't know what it is?

I figured... PEARLS BEFORE SWINE I TELL YOU!

It's a high resolution direct push advanced log showing exactly where the contaminants are under a hazardous waste site... all without digging up an ounce of soil. High tech I tell ya!!!

 

guywhofishes's picture
guywhofishes
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GREENHORN
Joined: 5/4/07

Just kidding of course.

But seriously - I do have some insights into electronics, displays, transducers, etc. You can trust me.

 

KurtR's picture
KurtR
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GREENHORN
Joined: 4/16/07

graphs are the best

 Adn

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