epa (uncle) in charge in wyoming...

where are the personal property rights... think you own your own land??? we are just all renters here... 

 http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/14/wyoming-welder-faces-fine-for...

wstnodak's picture
wstnodak
Offline
Joined: 11/3/02

No need to apologize gabe.  That is all old news.  But I really did find it ironic that the cat gave me shit about wearing camo when he runs a so called "hunting" operation and neither he or his "hunters" has to wear camo.  Get it?

If god didn't want us to eat animals....he wouldn't have made them out of food.

gst's picture
gst
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 3/12/09

wstnodak Said:
No need to apologize gabe.  That is all old news.  But I really did find it ironic that the cat gave me shit about wearing camo when he runs a so called "hunting" operation and neither he or his "hunters" has to wear camo.  Get it?

It falls into place that you would actually believe what he "gave you shit" about was actually the wearing of camo instead of the larger picture james.

wstnodak Said:

This is for the kids growing up in this state you don't have means to PAY to hunt!!!!!!!!!!

But I guess if it was up to you every section would have a fence around it and people would pay massive amounts of money to essentially slaughter a pig

Get over yourself and think about someone else for once you arrogant prick.

It must have struck a nerve though for being "old news".

Fritz the Cat's picture
Fritz the Cat
Offline
Joined: 5/24/08

Jimmy, you crack me up. You have such a quick temper.

"the handful of people pulling the levers know what it is you desire"

Now what in the hell is that supposed to mean there Dwight? 

You desire access. There is a small handful of persons who seek to rush as much private property into public assests as soon as they can. But, they need your help. This land shall be set aside for the sportsmen. (wink wink) That is where you come in.
After you help them erase the barriers, such as North Dakotas Anti-corporate Farming Law, then they will help you with access. (wink wink)

Dear Ron Gilmore. Before you go nuts with your reasons why the Anti-corporate Farming Law needs to be torn apart, you need to be reminded that I feel the same as Joel Heitkamp when you used to call in. Joel said, "Ron, I recognize the voice and I'm going to hang up now because I'm more interested in what others have to say."

Too funny.

eyexer's picture
eyexer
Offline
Joined: 2/28/07

Fritz the Cat Said:

eyexer Said:
 the land is pretty much off limits now anyway so I don't see any change in the forseeable future.  Doesn't have anything to do with riches.  Not sure what drum your trying to beat with that but it doesn't make a tune.

Eye, which is more important? A piece of private ground that you can buy sell trade derive some income raise a family etc. etc. Where you control the means of production forty weeks a year.

Or is it better to rush as much of that private ground into public ground so that you have a place to recreate 12 weeks a year?

Keep in mind that many stakeholders also have a say in what or how you recreate.

Public lands are much like public roads. The last bastion of socialism.

Socialism “is an economic system characterized by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy.”

it'snot for me to say what property owners do with their property.  none of my business unless it infringes on my property in some way. 

 

Plainsman's picture
Plainsman
Offline
AMATEUR
Joined: 6/19/03

I think we all get the picture.  The EPA must be attacked so they don't keep trying to control what they actually should.  I think it was Swift who posted a page from the North Dakota Farm Bureau and gst said it was just a "wish list".  It was asking for the removal of regulations, and I don't remember the exact words gst, but it was radical enough that you tried to write it off as just a "wish list" and not real.  Remember now.

Anyway, is the picture becoming clear for those of you riding the fence?  Go read ten years of my political opinions and then tell me if you think I am liberal or conservative.  Then ask yourself why these people are against conservation.  I think it's as some have said they want to control the hunting.  They say that other interests will attack hunting on public land.  I'm sure they will, but right now we are in trouble on private land.  We have a socialist ag program, and the people getting the money have no appreciation for those paying the money.  They are going to shaft you further if you have a bow, rifle, or shotgun in your hands.  Clear? 

We have people trying to advance old Europe from which we risked life and limb to escape.

WormWiggler's picture
WormWiggler
Offline
Joined: 8/29/09

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

                                                                                                                         

WormWiggler's picture
WormWiggler
Offline
Joined: 8/29/09

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

                                                                                                                         

WormWiggler's picture
WormWiggler
Offline
Joined: 8/29/09

WormWiggler Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental La

                                                                                                                         

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wstnodak
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Joined: 11/3/02

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:
No need to apologize gabe.  That is all old news.  But I really did find it ironic that the cat gave me shit about wearing camo when he runs a so called "hunting" operation and neither he or his "hunters" has to wear camo.  Get it?

It falls into place that you would actually believe what he "gave you shit" about was actually the wearing of camo instead of the larger picture james.

wstnodak Said:

This is for the kids growing up in this state you don't have means to PAY to hunt!!!!!!!!!!

But I guess if it was up to you every section would have a fence around it and people would pay massive amounts of money to essentially slaughter a pig

Get over yourself and think about someone else for once you arrogant prick.

It must have struck a nerve though for being "old news".

You even think you know what I am thinking!haha  I tell you what, if that isn't arrogance at its finest I don't know what is.  

Gabe, you and people with your mentality are the greatest threat to the ND sportsman than any group, bill, fund, etc. will ever be and that's a fact jack!  (just cause you like orange faces) 

If god didn't want us to eat animals....he wouldn't have made them out of food.

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wstnodak
Offline
Joined: 11/3/02

Fritz the Cat Said:
Jimmy, you crack me up. You have such a quick temper.

"the handful of people pulling the levers know what it is you desire"

Now what in the hell is that supposed to mean there Dwight? 

You desire access. There is a small handful of persons who seek to rush as much private property into public assests as soon as they can. But, they need your help. This land shall be set aside for the sportsmen. (wink wink) That is where you come in.
After you help them erase the barriers, such as North Dakotas Anti-corporate Farming Law, then they will help you with access. (wink wink)

Dear Ron Gilmore. Before you go nuts with your reasons why the Anti-corporate Farming Law needs to be torn apart, you need to be reminded that I feel the same as Joel Heitkamp when you used to call in. Joel said, "Ron, I recognize the voice and I'm going to hang up now because I'm more interested in what others have to say."

Too funny.

Really cat, I know you would like to think you are getting under my skin but it takes a lot more than a small man behind a computer to get me worked up.  Nope, the question you quoted me on was serious.  Most of the time I don't have a clue what kind of ebonics your spewing.  Seriously, I don't know if it is your attempt at being clever or just you struggling with the English language but either way it doesn't help your "internet image".

Have a good weekend spending 90% of your time behind the computer gabe and Dwight....sounds like such a fun weekend.

If god didn't want us to eat animals....he wouldn't have made them out of food.

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Fritz the Cat
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Joined: 5/24/08

Plainsman wrote,

I think it was Swift who posted a page from the North Dakota Farm Bureau and gst said it was just a "wish list".  It was asking for the removal of regulations, and I don't remember the exact words gst, but it was radical enough that you tried to write it off as just a "wish list" and not real.  Remember now.
 

Instead of posting what someone else said, why don't you do some leg work of your own, investigate and then post something here of substance.

Anyway, is the picture becoming clear for those of you riding the fence?  Go read ten years of my political opinions and then tell me if you think I am liberal or conservative.

 Liberal or conservative? Who cares. Your message never changes. "We Want Access To Our Wildlife Across Private Property." We pay taxes so therefore.........

I think it's as some have said they want to control the hunting. 

Who said???We are going to need a name or else you simply made this up.

We have a socialist ag program, and the people getting the money have no appreciation for those paying the money.  They are going to shaft you further if you have a bow, rifle, or shotgun in your hands.  Clear? 

 

You are trying to create division........Clear

We have people trying to advance old Europe from which we risked life and limb to escape.

I see Bruce that you are still a disciple of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model. Any reference about Europe usually comes out of that piece of propaganda. Written by Dr. Valerius Geist who immigrated here from communist East Germany. He had lots of slogans like "Opportunity for all".

gst's picture
gst
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Joined: 3/12/09

Plainsman Said:
I think we all get the picture.  The EPA must be attacked so they don't keep trying to control what they actually should. Once again Bruce where has tis eve been stated?  I think it was Swift who posted a page from the North Dakota Farm Bureau and gst said it was just a "wish list".  It was asking for the removal of regulations, and I don't remember the exact words gst, but it was radical enough that you tried to write it off as just a "wish list" and not real.  Remember now.

I remember exactly plainsman and that is why I have asked you to substantiate your claim that "some ag org was calling for the removal of all regulation" ..So is that true or not Bruce?

Anyway, is the picture becoming clear for those of you riding the fence?  Go read ten years of my political opinions and then tell me if you think I am liberal or conservative.  Then ask yourself why these people are against conservation. Once again Bruce the big lie. Explain how I am "against conservation when I spend tens of thousands of my own dollars implementing connservation. Really Bruce explain that with some sort of commons sense logic. Remember all the links I shared to conservation orgs and programs that I am involved with over on Nodak when you made this same lie over there? Without this lie Bruce what do you have left???  I think it's as some have said they want to control the hunting.  They say that other interests will attack hunting on public land.  I'm sure they will, but right now we are in trouble on private land.  We have a socialist ag program, and the people getting the money have no appreciation for those paying the money.  They are going to shaft you further if you have a bow, rifle, or shotgun in your hands.  Clear? 

We have people trying to advance old Europe from which we risked life and limb to escape.  So supporting private property rights of all generations is returning to old Europe???

Bruce why has the state never before written spending mandates into our constitution?

This measure does setting presidence.

Bruce please give the top examples of where a govt mandated spending programs requiring the expenditure of 75% of funds rather than performance orientated funding  has worked and benefited anyone long term.

This measure requires this mandated spending.

Nothing to do with your anti conservation lie Bruce, nothing to do with your anti hunting lie, nothing to do with property rights, all the tired old accusations, just simple responsible, accountable, fiscal conservatism.

Do you agree with fiscal conservatism Bruce?

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Joined: 3/12/09

wstnodak Said:

Really cat, I know you would like to think you are getting under my skin but it takes a lot more than a small man behind a computer to
get me worked up. 

wstnodak Said:

Get over yourself and think about someone else for once you arrogant prick.

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Fritz the Cat
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Joined: 5/24/08

wstnodak wrote,

Really cat, I know you would like to think you are getting under my skin but it takes a lot more than a small man behind a computer to get me worked up.  Nope, the question you quoted me on was serious.  Most of the time I don't have a clue what kind of ebonics your spewing.  Seriously, I don't know if it is your attempt at being clever or just you struggling with the English language but either way it doesn't help your "internet image".



My internet image???? Jimmy this is just a public forum.

Other then your usual name calling, I can't think of one thing you contributed to this thread.

I came into this thread on page seven. Posted a link to the ND Century Code the rules to build a berm, dike or dam. Not sure what the rules are in Wyoming but I'm sure they are more similar than they are different.

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Joined: 2/18/04

Neat

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gst
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Joined: 3/12/09

euwwwww.  $6.99???

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Joined: 6/19/03

Why do so many subjects lead back to complaining about a conservation provision? 

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Joined: 8/29/09

WormWiggler Said:

WormWiggler Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the c

                                                                                                                         

Fritz the Cat's picture
Fritz the Cat
Offline
Joined: 5/24/08

Worm,

Interesting strategy.

Plainsman Said:
Why do so many subjects lead back to complaining about a conservation provision? 

It just isn't as much fun without helpers like swift is it?

WormWiggler's picture
WormWiggler
Offline
Joined: 8/29/09

So back in the 80s, how many days did you guys yell "Tastes Great, Less Filling"?

                                                                                                                         

gst's picture
gst
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 3/12/09

Plainsman Said:
Why do so many subjects lead back to complaining about a conservation provision? 

Once again bruce try to understand the issue many have is NOT about conservation.

Why do you always have to try and disingenuously claim it is?

gst's picture
gst
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 3/12/09

I know, I know, it is just to hard to resist the temptation to click on the link isn;t it.

WormWiggler Said:
So back in the 80s, how many days did you guys yell "Tastes Great, Less Filling"?
johnr's picture
johnr
Offline
GREENHORN
Joined: 2/18/04

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

WormWiggler Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-rich rainwater.

The suit was filed on behalf of the coalition by the Free-Market Environmental Law Clinic, which estimated the cost of the EPA's mandate at about $225 million.

"If the county is forced to spend that much money on a single watershed, it will mean not one of the other 29 watersheds in the county will receive funds for their restoration, including the eight watersheds in the OWC's territory," says the law clinic, on its Web site.

The suit says a small portion of Accotink Creek, with about 120 miles of shoreline, is "impaired," under the EPA rules, because soil along an 8.1-mile stretch has eroded and, when it rains, the soil runs off into the creek.

"To address this problem, Fairfax County would normally place rock against those parts of the stream bank that erode the most, and take other actions that fit within its budget," says an analysis of the case by the American Tradition Institute. "Virginia and Fairfax County have been working together to address Accotink Creek, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has rejected those efforts and in their place adopted a new water quantity standard that limits the total amount of water that can be discharged into the stream each day."

That "standard" is what is being challenged by OWC.

Trampling the sovereignty of the state

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that this kind of coercive federal mandate on a local government is simply not allowed," said Dr. David W. Schnare, Director of the FME Law Clinic.

"Because Fairfax County and the Commonwealth of Virginia refused to raise this constitutional challenge in their recent suit against EPA, the citizens directly harmed by EPA are the only ones left to protect the rights and privileges of the Commonwealth and FME Law is representing their interests," he said. "Without that assistance, the serious problems in 29 watersheds will go unaddressed while EPA asks Fairfax County to empty its coffers in a vain effort to fix a problem of minor significance."

In its suit, the OWC claims the Clean Water Act gives EPA the authority to regulate sediments flowing into streams via pipes or point sources, but gives states and local governments the power to manage non-point sources.

"This is the kind of coercive commandeering the Constitution does not authorize - commandeering that tramples the sovereignty of the state and local governments," the complaint says.

 
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cuccinelli-epa-lawsuit-virginia/2013/01...

Seems the courts think it was a pretty good piece.

But hey what did the founding fathers like Jefferson know about states rights and the importance of them and controlling the Federal authority. I mean it is not like they fought a war and created a nation under a declaration of independence to escape an overbearing over reaching govt. I mean really what is that piece of paper they wrote setting up the limits and checks and balances of govt and ensuring private citizens and states rights  unencumbered by excessive govt even worth nowadays. Really do you think a 200 year old document is really even relevant anymore?

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said:

gst Said:

wstnodak Said

What does that have to do with conserving some of ND gabe?  So because some group talked to another group, that means we are responsible for spanking them?  I think that's what you are saying.  Are you saying this just for your personal gain gabe?

You seem to have NO problem telling our state how to manage itself so what is your deal with others having their opinion? 

If you really can not see the possible negative consequences of inviting orgs like the ones filing these lawsuits and collaborating with th EPA on how our state should manage our state  into our state west I am not going to invest further time into explaining it to you.

And west I support BOTH yours and my ability to have a say in telling our state to manage itself, I simply do not think out of state orgs should. Pretty simple really.

Try dropping the personal crap EVERY post west and actually discuss an issue for once.

You will not allow it gabe with your self serving, arrogant, and condescending nature.  Many have tried.  I don't know why you even bother to ask people to "discuss" with you anymore?

West, I have to break it to you, it really won;t "bother" me much if you don;t "bother" anymore!

Yet you STILL can't help responding!hahahaha  Get over yourself there almighty and just one time realize that other people have interests that are not the same as yours and they just might want to protect those interests.  This really has become a case of you vs. the sportsman and I'm convinced that more and more are seeing it that way.  Like I have said before, thank god the majority of the farmers/ranchers in this state don't think like you!

I've said this numerous times and I'll stick to it.  This measure is all about hunting access.  Farmers have tied up the land and this is the result.  And now they're screaming the loudest.  They only have themselves to blame if this measure passes.

So flood control for Fargo is about hunting access? Cause that is what their selling this measure as. But then how else would you get a high percentage of Fargo citizens ot vote for their share of the oil and gas tax revenues!

that's what happens when you try to play mind games, people think your talking about something other than what your talking about.  

johnr Said:

WormWiggler Said:

Stop the Insanity

johnr Said:

gst Said:
It's all good, try reading this and let us know what you think.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036700_Tenth_Amendment_EPA_rainwater.html#

(NaturalNews) The Tenth Amendment has been described by some constitutional scholars and experts as the Bill of Rights' catch-all amendment, in that it was written into the nation's founding document as a way to remind future federal lawmakers and officials that unless the Constitution explicitly allows it or bans it, states - as sovereign entities - are free to do as they please.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, in 1798, "Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government . . . whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

In other words, the federal government's powers are few and defined; state, by comparison, was supposed to be numerous and plentiful.

But that was then. It certainly isn't that way these days, as states have increasingly fallen under the control over a growing federal Leviathan and its multitude of bloated bureaucracies.

Well, the time seems to have come when states - some of them at least - appear to have had enough. Take Virginia.

A group from the Commonwealth has filed suit in federal court alleging that one of the crown jewels of federal bureaucracy - the Environmental Protection Agency - has stepped way over the central government's constitutionally limited powers with new rules governing, of all things, rain water run-off.

According to the complaint filed by the Occoquan Watershed Coalition, the EPA violated the Tenth Amendment by imposing a "coercive ... unfunded mandate" on a watershed, "to implement a federal program - one not imposed by or under Virginia Law."

New standards equals hundreds of millions of dollars

The group says the EPA's rules unconstitutionally force Virginia to control the amount of rainwater allowed to flow into a stream in Fairfax County. The mandate seeks to protect benthic organisms - the benthic zone is the lowest area of a body of water, along the bottom - that the EPA says are killed off by the sediment-

Neat

gst's picture
gst
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Joined: 3/12/09

You are a tricky fella worm, I bet your mom had to put the cookie jar up real high.

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gst Said:
I know, I know, it is just to hard to resist the temptation to click on the link isn;t it.

WormWiggler Said:
So back in the 80s, how many days did you guys yell "Tastes Great, Less Filling"?

Well, I like the topic but you guys get so over top ranting at one another that it all becomes like a room full of crying babies to me.

                                                                                                                         

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gst Said:
You are a tricky fella worm, I bet your mom had to put the cookie jar up real high.

I recently bought stock in a company that makes the little roller in computer mouses and I want to make sure they make their first quarter numbers.

                                                                                                                         

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Joined: 11/6/02

Fritz I am not in favor of tearing apart the Corp farming law, have said that repeatedly, what I would like to see is a return to the original law as it was passed, not what the ag org morfed it into!

The problem is that since your group is not willing to go back to reasoned rules, Cook is going to force the issue in court and that sums up the situation not being ME but your own greed that is going to rewrite the law.

I do not want Cargill or ADM or Cloverdale to be in the actual business of raising products in our state. I do however recognize that there is likely not anything we can do legally if they pushed it to avoid that.

Now how about this suggest they go back to the old law, remove the board, and move forward. But my guess you and gst want it all and are to blind to other states that had almost identical laws getting booted to think a bit out of the box.

You can stand on your soap box  and cry but it is not going to come out well for the states law in courts outside of ND and that is where this is at now!

Hey gst no explanation on the question I gave you. No guts to answer it?

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Ron,

Cook isn't going to challenge or at least not until after the Clean Water Wildlife and Parks Petition passes.

That would be putting the cart before the horse.

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gst
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Joined: 3/12/09

WormWiggler Said:

gst Said:
I know, I know, it is just to hard to resist the temptation to click on the link isn;t it.

WormWiggler Said:
So back in the 80s, how many days did you guys yell "Tastes Great, Less Filling"?

Well, I like the topic but you guys get so over top ranting at one another that it all becomes like a room full of crying babies to me.

I can see where it comes of like that a bit when one is forced to constantly address the accusations and claims made against ones self that are flat bold face lies.

Beleive me, I would very much rather have a discussion without all the bullshit and actually discuss something on it's merits or lack of them.

I mean these are not little issues like are crank baits more productive than spinners or ice pirates or any number of other topics on here.

These discussions often go right back to the core of the foundation of the country and the impacts on our state govt.

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gst
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Joined: 3/12/09

WormWiggler Said:

gst Said:
You are a tricky fella worm, I bet your mom had to put the cookie jar up real high.

I recently bought stock in a company that makes the little roller in computer mouses and I want to make sure they make their first quarter numbers.

Man that's old tech, touchscreen baby!

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Hardwaterman Said:


Hey gst no explanation on the question I gave you. No guts to answer it?

Ron you will have to forgive me, I admit to skipping over much of what you have to say anymore. I mean why should one waste ones time when all you do is belittle others commitments to conservation and post bullshit claims that are not even true?

Did you even bother to check into the Enviromental Stewardship Program to see how non "pitiful" some of these peoples commitment to conservation is and how this very good program came to be?

Have you even came close to this level of personal commitment to conservation yourself???

Didn;t think so ron, so if you are not willing to actually inform yourself abit when people provide the links and give you an opportunity to and you instead choose to make claims that simply are not true, why should anyone waste time reading what you have to say.

In this thread alone, you and plainsman have made several untrue statements and neither of you have had the backbone or credibility to admit they were either misinformed statements or outright lies.

I don't have much time to converse with people like that, so please forgive me for not doing so.
 

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https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=NCBA%20enviromental%20stewa...

http://www.ndstockmen.org/?id=80&page=Environmental+Stewardship+Award

http://www.ndstockmen.org/?id=55

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX8d8L10FH0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX8d8L10FH0

http://www.ndglc.com/

These are but a few examples.

A common theme in these operations is conservation and putting more back into the land than what one takes out to improve the land andenviroment and leave it better for each following generation.

Stewardship.

It is a concept that when taught and passed down to future generations and  they accept the ideology it ensures each and every generation into the future continues the betterment of the land and the enviroment they pass on.

It ensures they continue to think progressively and continue to develop new and better stewardship practices.

You see ron it is NOT about "greed" for MANY producers as you and a small handful accuse, it is about leaving something better for future generations just as the generation before us did. Not just on the land, but in our society and govt as well.

Ron/hardwaterman, when you ignorantly claim these commitments to conservation, stewardship of the land and teaching future generations these values are nothing more than "pitiful" , it only shows how little you understand the concept.

"And do not parade out the so called conservation efforts of these orgs they are pitiful in reality"

Perhaps you would be better off sticking to cleaning blinds than insulting others who are actually walking the walk and telling them how to engage in conservation and stewardship of the land.

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No more BS gst compared to DU it is pitiful!

Do you have the guts to tell us why you oppose conservation and easements short of tax issues that I have already addressed!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Of course Ron, what our ranchers kick in is a pittance compared to Ducks Unlimited. But then DU gets about $75 million dollars a year in grants from Uncle Sam. They got their hands in your pockets.

But there is so much more. DU gets money from foundations. Check this one out.

http://www.undueinfluence.com/packard_foundation.htm

Sample Packard Foundation Grants, 2008
Packard has given 11,988 similar grants totaling $3,113,846,876

DUCKS UNLIMITED
Memphis Tennessee
$125,000 Marine birds
AMERICAN FARMLAND TRUST
Washington DC
$600,000 Climate and agriculture

Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't the Clean Water Wildlife and Parks Petitioners report to the ND Secretary of States Office that they have over $600,000 in their account and that money came from.....................correct me if I'm wrong but didn't it come from American Farmland Trust? I can't remember exactly the name of the donor.

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fritz this is a simple question that I posed to gst and to you why do you oppose permanent conservaton? Tax issue aside give us your reasons and stop the BS about where the money comes from it is your deflect fall back.

Simple as can be spell it out show us that your dislike for permanent conservation is not greed driven?

GST will wait for your answer to the question as well. No more BS either compare the two org side by side gst and tell me that it is not pitiful in comparison !!!!!!!!!

And that is just one org!!!! But do put up both sets of numbers if you want to crow about the body of work!!!! Put it up so everyone can see the difference and effort!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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ron said,

fritz this is a simple question that I posed to gst and to you why do you oppose permanent conservaton?

How many ways would you like me to say it. The means of production should be controlled by the owner. It should not be severed just like hunting rights should not be severed.

and stop the BS about where the money comes from it is your deflect fall back.

 

American Farmland Trust or was it American Wetlands Trust that donated $600,000 to the Clean Water Wildlife Parks Petition?

Either way, these orgs are prepared to spend a lot of money influencing North Dakota policy.

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sounds like those opposed to this measure need to spend alot of money on this campaign then.

 

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Hardwaterman Said:
No more BS gst compared to DU it is pitiful!

Do you have the guts to tell us why you oppose conservation and easements short of tax issues that I have already addressed!

Once again he "Big Lie"

Why do you guys have to lie to try and make a point?

Hardwaterman Said:
fritz this is a simple question that I posed to gst and to you why do you oppose permanent conservaton? Tax issue aside give us your reasons and stop the BS about where the money comes from it is your deflect fall back.

Simple as can be spell it out show us that your dislike for permanent conservation is not greed driven?

GST will wait for your answer to the question as well. No more BS either compare the two org side by side gst and tell me that it is not pitiful in comparison !!!!!!!!!

And that is just one org!!!! But do put up both sets of numbers if you want to crow about the body of work!!!! Put it up so everyone can see the difference and effort!

Now you at least quantify what was before a bold face lie.

We have danced this dance enough ron.

 I doubt you watched the links I provided or you would understand that virtually every one of those producers are just like myself in a common theme in that they wish the future to have as good and many opportunities if not more than what the previous generations had.

We believe in protecting future generations opportunities thru stewardship of not only their lands that will be passed on to them, but the protection of the property rights that were passed on to us by previous generations.

You don;t understand that because you nor the generation to follow do not make your living producing something from the land.

Instead you call that "greed" and continue to insult those that walk the walk.

Ron, what did DU build, grow, produce to generate the dollars they spend on conservation?

Nothing, they are other peoples dollars that are given to them. It is very easy to spend other people monies on conservation when you have nothing else that requires the investment of the dollars you take in.

You are comparing a massive global organization producing NOTHING with the monies they are GIVEN to an individual actually producing something to EARN income that not only sustains their commitment to conservation but provides for their families  and you have the arrogance to insult their commitment to conservation and stewardship of the land as "pitiful?????

This arrogant attitude is why many producers have issues with people like you and the orgs you represent. You demonstrate it here as well as your "ranching 101" thread where you tell EVERYONE how to ranch even though you have not made a living doing so yourself.

. So once again ron when you condemn these INDIVIDUALS commitment to conservation as "pitiful" what have YOU done as an individual that has created habitat and benefited the lands and wild life?

Show us the wetlands YOU restored, show us the trees YOU have planted, show us the native prairie YOU have restored. Show us the stewardship practices YOU engage in on your lands every day so we can have a basis to compare your "pitiful" accusations.

Instead when asked this ron what do you do? Instead of sharing YOUR commitment to conservation you deflect from it (or the lack of it) by holding up DU in comparison to individual ranchers and ag producers.

Why ron? Could it be that even though YOU insult those that do invest their time, efforts and dollars into actually creating habitat and engaging conservation practices you have not?

Ron provide us the percentages of their own salary the top people in DU and these other orgs actually put back into creating habitat and benefiting wildlife and show us video of them actually out planting trees and habitat for wildlife themselves beyond a 5 minute photo op.. 

Oh wait DU and PF does not like planting trees as they provide cover for raptors. But would';t trees plantings in larger groupings provide cover for other wildlife such as deer and many other species?

It seems DU is pretty focused on only helping wildlife that benefits their membership and returns more dollars into their pockets. Wouldn't that be considered "greed" ron?

So ron by your standards comparing how many trees DU has planted here in ND to the numbers ag producers have planted here in ND would not DU's commitment to conservation meet your own "pitiful" standard?


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So ron by your standards comparing how many trees DU has planted here in ND to the numbers ag producers have planted here in ND would not DU's commitment to conservation meet your own "pitiful" standard?

Isn't that mostly taxpayer dollars too?  Also, do you plant them for erosion or for wildlife?  So are you comparing ag conservation to wildlife conservation?  I think your talking apples and oranges. 

You are comparing a massive global organization producing NOTHING with the monies they are GIVEN to an individual actually producing something to EARN income

That's confusing.  Earn income?  Are you saying growing corn is wildlife conservation?

I don't belong to DU, and never have so I may be wrong, but I don't think they are a global organization. 

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And ron if we are truly going to compare apples to apples ron, why not post the total acres DU has impacted with conservation practices here in North Dakota and compare it to the total numbers of acres that ag producers have impacted with conservation practices on their own and in conjunction with orgs like the NRCS.

Come on ron lets post total acres impacted by conservation practices and see just who's commitment measures up.

Remember ron DU considers the fall planting of winter wheat over spring planting of spring wheat a conservation practice that benefits duck production so start with how many acresof spring wheat are seeded and then start adding in rotational grazing which DU also considers beneficial to duck production, then move on to the establishment of alternative water sources to improve stream bank restoration which DU considers a benefit to ducks, then add in no till plantings which are a conservation of the soil over plowing and planting and then add in ................ well ron perhaps you get the point that perhaps these producers commitment to conservation is not as "pitiful" as you accuse.

But some how I doubt it and instead you will like call me a "dumbass" and "greedy" instead of actually posting any numbers to compare or YOUR OWN  conservation practices YOU  engage in.

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Plainsman Said:

So ron by your standards comparing how many trees DU has planted here in ND to the numbers ag producers have planted here in ND would not DU's commitment to conservation meet your own "pitiful" standard?

Isn't that mostly taxpayer dollars too?  Also, do you plant them for erosion or for wildlife?  So are you comparing ag conservation to wildlife conservation?  I think your talking apples and oranges. 

Plainsman not as high a percentage of tax payer dollars as what went to pay your wages.

So now it appears that you are only going to accept conservation practices that benefit YOUR wants as conservation practices?

Are you claiming "ag"conservation pracitces of planting trees does not benefit "wildlife" simply because it may have ag benefits Bruce??  How far will you go to make agriculture look bad Bruce? Cause this statement seems pretty foolish. Especially when the NDG&F heralds these "AG" conservation practices as being beneficial to wildlife.

You are comparing a massive global organization producing NOTHING with the monies they are GIVEN to an individual actually producing something to EARN income

That's confusing.  Earn income?  Are you saying growing corn is wildlife conservation?

No plainsman you once again miss the point in your eagerness to make accusations. What is being said is that while the producer  has to ALSO use this income they EARN to meet his obligations such as providing a living for their families out of the dollars they generate, they are STILL willing to invest a goodly portion to conservation. DU does not have that obligation of providing a living for their family with the monies they are GIVEN for the sole purpose of conservation.

So if one wants to be honest here for once bruce, could it not be considered that a producers commitment to conservation is not as "pitiful" as ron suggests?

Or do you as well believe ND ag producers commitments to conservation are "pitiful" as ron claims?

And just so you know Bruce, the approximately 400 deer we have up here this winter spent far more time in the corn stubble fields and standing corn we left for them this winter than they did the native prairie pasture beside it. Although they did move thru the tree plantings we did and gained a little browse in their diet as well. Would you care to come up this spring and help me replant the trees they have destroyed bruce? 

I noticed the pheasants seemed to appreciate the corn we spill feeding cattle as they fly out of the tree rows we planted to feed on it every morning as well.

I'm no "trained wildlife professional biologist" such as your self Bruce, but I would think these crop residues such as corn stubble and sunflower stubble have helped "conserve" a few more deer in hard ND winters than what those acres in native prairie may have. Just a wild guess Bruce, but perhaps you are right plainsman, agriculture such as growing corn has no value to wildlife.

I don't belong to DU, and never have so I may be wrong, but I don't think they are a global organization. 

Ever heard of DU Canada?

How about DU Mexico?

http://www.ducks.org/

plains, DU own words.

Ducks Unlimited - Official Site

Ducks Unlimited: World Leader in Wetlands & Waterfowl Conservation

Perhaps "multinational" would have more accurately fit. So ron is comparing a multinational organization given grants and donations to individual producers earning the monies they invest in conservation.

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eyexer Said:
sounds like those opposed to this measure need to spend alot of money on this campaign then.

Eye you are always suggesting where these oil and gas tax dollars should be used where they are generated or to remove the states property taxes.

Do you think it is a good idea to mandate spending of them thru our constitution where this mandated funding can;t be looked at again for 25 years?

So wouldn;t these dollars be better spent working together in conservation rather than creating divisions?

For some reason I think in the long run, a cooperative program such as the Outdoor Heritage Fund that can be addressed every two years rather than forced to wait 25 years would ultimately benefit ND sportsmen much better than a adversarial one such as what this measure is and will be.

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eyexer Said:
sounds like those opposed to this measure need to spend alot of money on this campaign then.

Yes, the producers of this state are going to have to put up the money ($ amount unknown) to oppose the non-profits $600,000 and growing.

During Measure 5 the animal felony cruelty initiative, the producers (Stockmens, Farm Bureau etc.)  put up $200,000 to oppose the non-profits (HSUS) $900,000.

During the fair chase initiative, the producers (Elk and Deer Growers) put up $280,000 to oppose the non-profits (wildlife society, wildlife federation and HSUS) $150,000.

btw, Karen Thunshell, leading activist in ND for the non-profit HSUS is now getting a paycheck. What does she produce? Nothing. She is active against horse slaughter. Making sure that a producer makes........... nothing.  

The real endangered species in this country is fast becoming the working man who produces something.

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Fritz the Cat Said:

eyexer Said:
sounds like those opposed to this measure need to spend alot of money on this campaign then.

Yes, the producers of this state are going to have to put up the money ($ amount unknown) to oppose the non-profits $600,000 and growing.

During Measure 5 the animal felony cruelty initiative, the producers (Stockmens, Farm Bureau etc.)  put up $200,000 to oppose the non-profits (HSUS) $900,000.

During the fair chase initiative, the producers (Elk and Deer Growers) put up $280,000 to oppose the non-profits (wildlife society, wildlife federation and HSUS) $150,000.

btw, Karen Thunshell, leading activist in ND for the non-profit HSUS is now getting a paycheck. What does she produce? Nothing. She is active against horse slaughter. Making sure that a producer makes........... nothing.  

The real endangered species in this country is fast becoming the working man who produces something.

I opposed the fair chase initiative for one reason and that was property rights.  And that's the same reason I don't have a problem with any measure allowing people to sell their property to whomever they wish.  

 

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gst Said:

eyexer Said:
sounds like those opposed to this measure need to spend alot of money on this campaign then.

Eye you are always suggesting where these oil and gas tax dollars should be used where they are generated or to remove the states property taxes.

Do you think it is a good idea to mandate spending of them thru our constitution where this mandated funding can;t be looked at again for 25 years?

So wouldn;t these dollars be better spent working together in conservation rather than creating divisions?

For some reason I think in the long run, a cooperative program such as the Outdoor Heritage Fund that can be addressed every two years rather than forced to wait 25 years would ultimately benefit ND sportsmen much better than a adversarial one such as what this measure is and will be.

I actually haven't formed an opinion on that yet.  however, I'm for the people voting to decide these types of issues however they choose to vote.  In regards to working together, that is a novel idea.  However, the state threw together a token committee and gave them a token amount of money just to try and prevent the pitfalls of not doing anything.  So, since that happened the citizens in ND just may vote to usurp that committee.  It's in the peoples hands now.  Just like with any other legislation, if the legislature chokes the chicken they suffer the possible ramifications.  They chose to not make meaningful property tax reductions so they will more than likely pay the price this time around.  

 

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GST - per your request, read your rant about the founding fathers etc. You asked what I think. I'm all for the EPA- it's a vital agency within Federal government. I don't think it's too big and "far reaching". I'd like to see it have more funding. One does not have to drive very far in North Dakota to see that our state's "keepers" or "protectors" of the environment have their priorities screwed up.  Bring on the EPA. 

On the related topic of the upcoming clean water/wildlife amendment to which you object, it's simply an issue of competition for financial resources. Fundamentally, that's how our government (and society) works. Competing interests wanting a piece of the pie. People, agencies and a variety of interests "lobby" those in power for a piece of the pie. Typically, those who can pay the most get the biggest piece. Those that value conservation, wild places and wild things have elected to play the game; albeit, a different strategy this time. A constitutional amendment, voted upon by the majority of people in this state  (hopefully !!), mandating those that "cut the pie" have no choice but to give a nice piece to conservation.  The farm interests, oil and gas power brokers can't out-bid and have the whole pie to themselves.  There's a chance this endeavor may not work out this time- maybe not enough people will vote this time around???  So be it.  That's how the game is played.  Competition for resources.  Period.  You win some, you lose some.  Hopefully conservation wins this time.  

Out-of-state interests, of which you are so concerned, always have, and always will, be players in the game.  Legislative/political/financial decisions in North Dakota have always been subjected to massive agricultural and energy influences from outside our borders. Oil, gas and farm lobbyists with plenty of out-of-state cash in their pockets roam the halls of legislature every session hoping to influence how the pie is sliced.  Our Federal representatives (Hoeven et. al) get so so many campaign donations from out of state entities it's frightening.  Do we really think they don't vote based upon that influence?  Hoeven is so pro-energy development it is sickening.  Again, that is how the game is played.  If the conservation community has to rally national allies that can provide needed support in order to compete in the game, bring it on.  In the spirit of March Madness - It's a "cinderalla story" - everybody likes a underdog, right??  Except those powerhouse programs that get upset !!! 

I am now prepared to be peppered by your questions and riddles !!!

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eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
sounds like those opposed to this measure need to spend alot of money on this campaign then.

Eye you are always suggesting where these oil and gas tax dollars should be used where they are generated or to remove the states property taxes.

Do you think it is a good idea to mandate spending of them thru our constitution where this mandated funding can;t be looked at again for 25 years?

So wouldn;t these dollars be better spent working together in conservation rather than creating divisions?

For some reason I think in the long run, a cooperative program such as the Outdoor Heritage Fund that can be addressed every two years rather than forced to wait 25 years would ultimately benefit ND sportsmen much better than a adversarial one such as what this measure is and will be.

I actually haven't formed an opinion on that yet.  however, I'm for the people voting to decide these types of issues however they choose to vote.  In regards to working together, that is a novel idea.  However, the state threw together a token committee and gave them a token amount of money just to try and prevent the pitfalls of not doing anything.  So, since that happened the citizens in ND just may vote to usurp that committee.  It's in the peoples hands now.  Just like with any other legislation, if the legislature chokes the chicken they suffer the possible ramifications.  They chose to not make meaningful property tax reductions so they will more than likely pay the price this time around.  

eye, you speak on this site as if you are a fiscal conservative that demands responsibility and accountability over the states expenditures of what they take in in revenues. Am I safe to make that assumption?

As a fiscal conservative if you start a govt program is it wiser to fund it with a mandated 75% spending amount in a constitutional amendment in which it can not be readdressed for 25 years by the people of this state regardless of effectiveness or consequences of the programs it is MANDATED to fund every years  ?

Or is it more fiscally responsible to fund it with enough monies to see what kinds of projects will be proposed and have it funded in a statutue where the elected representatives of the people of our state can vote to increase the funding if good effective programs are developed as this program grows legs and are held accountable to do what the funds are actually intended to do  every two years ?

To me, that is a pretty easy call to make.

Despite the lies some on here wish to make, I will be one of the first ones supporting an increase to the Outdoor Heritage Fund If they develope good, effective, accountable conservation programs.

You actually have an opportunity to hold govt spending accountable for once, and you seem to wish to squander that and replace it with not having a say for 25 years.

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It's All Good Said:

GST - per your request, read your rant about the founding fathers etc. You asked what I think. I'm all for the EPA- it's a vital agency within Federal government. I don't think it's too big and "far reaching". I'd like to see it have more funding. One does not have to drive very far in North Dakota to see that our state's "keepers" or "protectors" of the environment have their priorities screwed up.  Bring on the EPA. 

On the related topic of the upcoming clean water/wildlife amendment to which you object, it's simply an issue of competition for financial resources. Fundamentally, that's how our government (and society) works. Competing interests wanting a piece of the pie. People, agencies and a variety of interests "lobby" those in power for a piece of the pie. Typically, those who can pay the most get the biggest piece. Those that value conservation, wild places and wild things have elected to play the game; albeit, a different strategy this time. A constitutional amendment, voted upon by the majority of people in this state  (hopefully !!), mandating those that "cut the pie" have no choice but to give a nice piece to conservation.  The farm interests, oil and gas power brokers can't out-bid and have the whole pie to themselves.  There's a chance this endeavor may not work out this time- maybe not enough people will vote this time around???  So be it.  That's how the game is played.  Competition for resources.  Period.  You win some, you lose some.  Hopefully conservation wins this time.  

Out-of-state interests, of which you are so concerned, always have, and always will, be players in the game.  Legislative/political/financial decisions in North Dakota have always been subjected to massive agricultural and energy influences from outside our borders. Oil, gas and farm lobbyists with plenty of out-of-state cash in their pockets roam the halls of legislature every session hoping to influence how the pie is sliced.  Our Federal representatives (Hoeven et. al) get so so many campaign donations from out of state entities it's frightening.  Do we really think they don't vote based upon that influence?  Hoeven is so pro-energy development it is sickening.  Again, that is how the game is played.  If the conservation community has to rally national allies that can provide needed support in order to compete in the game, bring it on.  In the spirit of March Madness - It's a "cinderalla story" - everybody likes a underdog, right??  Except those powerhouse programs that get upset !!! 

I am now prepared to be peppered by your questions and riddles !!!

It's,
no questions, no riddles, just three simple observations of what you wish to see happen here in our state based on your own words.

1. Advocating expansion of the Federal govt and its regulations and controls over states and individuals beyond long held and established constitutional limitations.

2. Advocating mandated govt spending with limited accountability for 25 years instead of results accountable govt spending.

3. Advocating for out of state interests telling the citizens of North Dakota what is best for them.

 

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gst Said:

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:
sounds like those opposed to this measure need to spend alot of money on this campaign then.

Eye you are always suggesting where these oil and gas tax dollars should be used where they are generated or to remove the states property taxes.

Do you think it is a good idea to mandate spending of them thru our constitution where this mandated funding can;t be looked at again for 25 years?

So wouldn;t these dollars be better spent working together in conservation rather than creating divisions?

For some reason I think in the long run, a cooperative program such as the Outdoor Heritage Fund that can be addressed every two years rather than forced to wait 25 years would ultimately benefit ND sportsmen much better than a adversarial one such as what this measure is and will be.

I actually haven't formed an opinion on that yet.  however, I'm for the people voting to decide these types of issues however they choose to vote.  In regards to working together, that is a novel idea.  However, the state threw together a token committee and gave them a token amount of money just to try and prevent the pitfalls of not doing anything.  So, since that happened the citizens in ND just may vote to usurp that committee.  It's in the peoples hands now.  Just like with any other legislation, if the legislature chokes the chicken they suffer the possible ramifications.  They chose to not make meaningful property tax reductions so they will more than likely pay the price this time around.  

eye, you speak on this site as if you are a fiscal conservative that demands responsibility and accountability over the states expenditures of what they take in in revenues. Am I safe to make that assumption?

As a fiscal conservative if you start a govt program is it wiser to fund it with a mandated 75% spending amount in a constitutional amendment in which it can not be readdressed for 25 years by the people of this state regardless of effectiveness or consequences of the programs it is MANDATED to fund every years  ?

Or is it more fiscally responsible to fund it with enough monies to see what kinds of projects will be proposed and have it funded in a statutue where the elected representatives of the people of our state can vote to increase the funding if good effective programs are developed as this program grows legs and are held accountable to do what the funds are actually intended to do  every two years ?

To me, that is a pretty easy call to make.

Despite the lies some on here wish to make, I will be one of the first ones supporting an increase to the Outdoor Heritage Fund If they develope good, effective, accountable conservation programs.

You actually have an opportunity to hold govt spending accountable for once, and you seem to wish to squander that and replace it with not having a say for 25 years.

like I said I haven't formed an opinion on the measure other than what I stated several months ago that it seems like too much money.  That being said, as far as I'm concerned the measure is about hunting access.  The heritage fund does nothing to allow greater hunting access.  Until that happens I don't think you'll find any fans of the Heritage fund.  The state has become an overgrown wealth pit.  Our legislators won't fund things that really need to be addressed out west.  So, given that, I have come to the conclusion we might as well spend the money on something that may benefit the people in ND because it makes no sense leaving the money sit in Wall Street.  If your going to take the money in the form of taxes, use it or don't take it at all.  The state is not a "for profit" corporation.  It's really not a matter of fiscal conservancy anymore.  you worry about that when the money is tight and you have to ensure the survival of the state.  that clearly is no longer the issue.  we have fund that are untouchable that are set aside so when or if the oil money dries up (which will never happen in any of our lifetimes), we have the funds to use to wean ourselves off of the oil money.  

 

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So for those that dismiss setting precedent of funding things in our constitution, what would be your response if out of state organizations were spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to amend our constitution so that the ND Dept of Agriculture got a percentage of these oil and gas tax dollars to spend on agriculture programs here in the state?

Maybe say a company that sold tiling supplies and equipment "investing" in the states future?  After all, as It's said, that is the way the game is played right???

Would a mandated spending requirement in our constituion where the people of the state couldn't vote on it for 25 years (or maybe longer) be a good idea then?

I don't think so, and I highly doubt most of the people claiming there is not problem with this measure would think so then either.

If you guys want to open that door of funding things in our states constituion, don;t bitch and whine when it comes back to bite you in the ass down the road.

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