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cynical's picture
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If GWB steered that darn hurricane into New Orleans then I suppose Obama has his hand in this flooding. We need to take away the HARP from the President.

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
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"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
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There are a lot of dynamics at work... several upon which we can and will improve upon.

There have been floods in the past... there will be floods in the future all similar in some aspects and all different in some aspects.

Let's focus on winning this one... as all others past and future... local or not... don't mean squat.

Leadership is going to do what they are going to do at this point... we can only worry about what we can contol...

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3XGutshot Said:
If GWB steered that darn hurricane into New Orleans then I suppose Obama has his hand in this flooding. We need to take away the HARP from the President.

This one's all on God.

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I don't know what is going on, but they increase releases, the river bumps up for a little bit and then goes back down.  I think it is carving out one heckuva a deep main channel.   I am already looking past this, into the fishing next spring.  I think we are all going to have to adjust our river fishing mentality to more of a rainy river type of thing......all the logs, bars, etc..etc.. that we have known for years are now somehwere down in SD!

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permo Said:
I don't know what is going on, but they increase releases, the river bumps up for a little bit and then goes back down.  I think it is carving out one heckuva a deep main channel.   I am already looking past this, into the fishing next spring.  I think we are all going to have to adjust our river fishing mentality to more of a rainy river type of thing......all the logs, bars, etc..etc.. that we have known for years are now somehwere down in SD!

I was down at Hazelton last weekend and although waters high, there isn't much for current. I bet there is a lot of sand between the Rifle Range and Eckroths. My drift from the ramp to the irrigation pump was .47 most of the way. 

IT IS BETTER TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS THAN ASK FOR PERMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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SHORTHAIRSRUS Said:
Tim --do your history lesson ----  1975 blindsided us -- big rains in july ---we organized and won it ---  that summer was full of mosquito's and encephalitis.   i had a dike outside my bedroom and slept lightly---we got hit 4 years later and paid the big bucks (at that time) (actually less than what i paid for flood ins)  and that part of the river has been diverted..  I cant stress this enough --- these floods were won with kids and young adults  ---  i think we have had 16 floods since i have been alive.     Its all in organization and utilizing people (again especially high schoolers and college kids) in the right places.   Enough fargo vs. bis stuff --- a flood is a flood -- it all consist of to much water.       

Lack of organization at the city level is shown above in that picture of southport that paddle posted (see above)  --- engineer the height and bag the empty for sale lot next to the home.   

From the sounds of it govt is getting a ear full and waking up --- sounds more positive as the days move along. 

Again my question - what is the average height of the city built dikes??? 

You are asking me what Bismarck's is and Fargo sits a 100 years later with no flood protection?  The dam was Bismarck's flood protection.

And I ask, what would happen if this event would have hit Fargo before they moved houses, changed infrastructure, etc ALL LEARNED FROM PREVIOUS FLOODS?

I'm done talking about this.  I just can't figure it out.  I guess everyone on the Missouri needs to be loaded up and gased because they are too dumb.  Or we should build flood protection to a 500 stage.  I think that happened in the 1880's??  Can't remember, been looking at too many numbers.

I would like to know the last time 60,000, 70,000, 80,000, 90,000, 100,000, 105,000, 110,000, 120,000, 130,000, 140,000, 150,000, 160,000,  or 170,000 PLUS has come through the Missouri?  Been 50 years or so right?  With exception to 60,000 occurring in the 70's and close again in 1997 of which Bismarck handled just fine.  Why did they handle that?  Because that was a number very real.

And bringing, I have never in my life (my life people) heard Fargo get hit with 3 to 7 inches of rain in a couple hours time when their levee system was experiencing their highest, 2nd highest, 3rd highest and 4th highest water levels (depending on what gage you are looking at on the Souris).

And it is not normal to get 3 to 7 inch rains.  I've never seen a single statistic support that and not even close in fact.  Yeah, thunderstorms can dumb some quick rain but generally that is a very small area.  This was basically an entire county worth if you add in Ward and Renville together.  It was impressive.

I will give you this.  It would be a city failure and government failure for allowing homes to be built in the areas they did.  But in all honesty, what are you suppose to do when you have two dams protecting you from flooding?  It takes wicked events to flood these areas and we are getting one.

The Red just needs an above average winter and it floods.  Darn right they will have a handle on their situation after fighting it for I think you said 16 times.  That really helps.  Fighting one never seen before in one's lifetime.  But there's a first time for everything.  Garauntee things are better next time but I bet you we'll never see a next time in our lives.  Maybe an ice jam or two but not what we are seeing now.

Minot is going on I think around 50 or 60 days of high water and we are just now getting our highest ever and creeping up on again a number never seen before since the late 1800's.  Again, a clear indication these heavy rains are far from normal.

Sorry, I am tired.  And I gotta finish my last day of work.  I'm moving on to something new.  My last day was suppose to be yesterday...


 

 

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Murdock's picture
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So tim,you got that job at H???Another thing about minot isent the lay of the land diff then at GF or F area??

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murdock1978 Said:
So tim,you got that job at H???Another thing about minot isent the lay of the land diff then at GF or F area??

Yeah I got it.  Start Monday.

I'm sure the land is much different.  We actually have elevation change where the east is flat as a pancake.  The river does many different things at many different locations.  We'd be doomed if they didn't straighten the river after 1969.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
Murdock's picture
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On my way to minot in about 30 mins,out running my dogs first!

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I love beer


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120,000cfs coming out of garrison by sunday. 100,000 tomorrow 8am


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Tim,

 
I am normally right with you but do not trivalize what the Red River Valley has gone through.  We have seen levels not seen before and takin one right after another.  By the way Red River Valley (by the way the whole Valley floods not just Fargo)  When I bought my home the highest the Red River had been at ever in recorded records as 37 feet.  My home is at 44 feet.  The last few years have been stressful but I have been completely fine.
Now Bismarck is at Flodd stage.... not Major flood stage but flood stage and they are having all these problems.  Fargo Flood stage is 18 feet.  WE have been fighting floods over 40 feet.....Bismarck floods at 16 wtih being possible to 18.... not even above major flood stage. 
I think the peole in the RRV have many hurt feelings from when people out West have alway told us... what do you expect... you built next to a River. 
Now yes the people who are elected officials have wronged the people of Bismarck and should be ashamed of themselves of how they are handling this flood.  People are not getting the info they need and organized help is horrible.  I feel sorry for the people of Bismarck. 
By the way the youth of the Red River Valley have won the floods fights for us.
Also don't bad mouth Fargo to much.  We have sent a Million Sand Bags and all the additional flood fighting stuff.  Sure the trap bags they are awesome.  Sand bags don't help much.  We have also sent down bus loads of people to help as well.
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my q was simple --- how high the average dike in bismarck is being built too to save the thatched area?   When i was t last weekend the only one i seen was 4-5 foot tall they were to redo that one --- but how high.  My q has nuttin to do with the fgovsbis rant. 

Stay thirsty my friends

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Mad Dog Said:
Tim,

 
I am normally right with you but do not trivalize what the Red River Valley has gone through.  We have seen levels not seen before and takin one right after another.  By the way Red River Valley (by the way the whole Valley floods not just Fargo)  When I bought my home the highest the Red River had been at ever in recorded records as 37 feet.  My home is at 44 feet.  The last few years have been stressful but I have been completely fine.
Now Bismarck is at Flodd stage.... not Major flood stage but flood stage and they are having all these problems.  Fargo Flood stage is 18 feet.  WE have been fighting floods over 40 feet.....Bismarck floods at 16 wtih being possible to 18.... not even above major flood stage. 
I think the peole in the RRV have many hurt feelings from when people out West have alway told us... what do you expect... you built next to a River. 
Now yes the people who are elected officials have wronged the people of Bismarck and should be ashamed of themselves of how they are handling this flood.  People are not getting the info they need and organized help is horrible.  I feel sorry for the people of Bismarck. 
By the way the youth of the Red River Valley have won the floods fights for us.
Also don't bad mouth Fargo to much.  We have sent a Million Sand Bags and all the additional flood fighting stuff.  Sure the trap bags they are awesome.  Sand bags don't help much.  We have also sent down bus loads of people to help as well.

good points, but They are just getting overwhelmed right now, and they are sure in it for the long haul. not only that the Missouri in the Bis area will have water comign through at close to 100,000 CFS.........................The Red has it highest in 2009 was only at 29,000CFS so they are dealing with alot of water (3X what we had here) also and its fast moving.
I do agree in Fargo we had plans in place.  Bismarck never expected this but somtimes you should have aplan for the unexpected (ex such as a dam failure).

either way arguing about this is pointless we should all be doing what we can to help one another, maybe now when the Valley floods, we will have the help and support of the west as we in turn help and support them.


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Swan,if its pointless to arguin then why the post??

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murdock1978 Said:
Swan,if its pointless to arguin then why the post??

cause nobody will change the subject, and I am stuck at work till 3.
so boredom has already set in


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Maybe you should get a diff job

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Tim,

Best wishes in your new position.  Sounds like the
strain of everything is starting to take a toll on everyone
and I guess that's to be expected.

Anyway, Good Luck to You Tim and Thank You for
all the good work you do for this organization.

Grey

566thMedCo/54thMedevacDet(Dust-Off)
"The louder you scream, the faster we come"

 
 

 

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My main point is the city should have had plans in place.  The whole country is having trouble so why not have a plan in place.  Every small town in the RRV has a plan in place for certain heights and volumes.  What is the dam broke?? I would think they would have a plan in place for it. 
Well I hope the city officials get their butt in gear and make some plans.  Yes it is a perfect storm but perfect can happen.  (I was born)

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The Red has it highest in 2009 was only at 29,000CFS so they are dealing with alot of water (3X what we had here) also and its fast moving.
 

Quick search of the USGS site said the peak flow of the Red River in 1997 was 144,000 cfs at Pembina in 1997. Just an FYI

Be safe out there folks we are keeping everyone in the fight in our prayers.

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Bob kellam Said:

The Red has it highest in 2009 was only at 29,000CFS so they are dealing with alot of water (3X what we had here) also and its fast moving.
 

Quick search of the USGS site said the peak flow of the Red River in 1997 was 144,000 cfs at Pembina in 1997. Just an FYI

Be safe out there folks we are keeping everyone in the fight in our prayers.

On KFGO yesterday, they said 29,000 for Fargo,
it was just like the BS argument on here about Missouri vrs Red (Fargo), and they said almost impossible to compare 100,000cfs to 29,000.

sorry I didn't look it up went off what was said on KFGO


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Ehh I think of this often, but in all reality I like my job, its just slow right now


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3.6billion dollar plan in 1997??

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Mad Dog Said:
Tim,

 
I am normally right with you but do not trivalize what the Red River Valley has gone through. 

Never did I trivialize it.  Never.  I commend them for what they have done year after year.

We have seen levels not seen before and takin one right after another.

As I said above and as you said immediately above the Red has taken it year after year.  What do you think battling a flood year after year gets ya?  Valuable expierence.  Very valuable expierence and knowing which homes to relocate, which ones to flat out leave to the water wolves, where to shut everything down, HOW THE RIVER ACTS, etc.

By the way Red River Valley (by the way the whole Valley floods not just Fargo)  When I bought my home the highest the Red River had been at ever in recorded records as 37 feet.  My home is at 44 feet.  The last few years have been stressful but I have been completely fine.

Yeah the whole Missouri River floods too.

Now Bismarck is at Flodd stage.... not Major flood stage but flood stage and they are having all these problems.  Fargo Flood stage is 18 feet.  WE have been fighting floods over 40 feet.....Bismarck floods at 16 wtih being possible to 18.... not even above major flood stage. 
I think the peole in the RRV have many hurt feelings from when people out West have alway told us... what do you expect... you built next to a River. 

I am going to post a table of historcal flood stage events of Bismarck.  Please not the dam went live right around 1960 or so.  How many flood stage events do you see?

One?  And what was that caused by?  A sudden ice jam of which officials did what they could to minimize damage.  What little you can do anyway.  An ice jam isn't something you get to plan for.

The other dates are not even flood stage and they make the top list.  And lets look at 1997 where we had our biggest lake levels for many, many years.  It didn't even crack close to flood stage.

So, I guess I fail to see where the city has not done well with flood stage?  NOR HAVE THEY EVEN HAD TO WORRY ABOUT IT.  As I said, we have flood protection from two of the largest dams in the United States.  You guys in Fargo (I'll throw Minot in there) will eventually have levees (maybe...some year) and when you do the building of houses, etc will be allowed because they are considered "safe."  Well, that's what happened in Bismarck.  And now, Mother Nature has come to call.  No one had any idea of this coming.  And when it came, how do you plan for a moving target (of no fault of the Corp???

 

 
(1) 31.60 ft on 03/31/1883
(2) 31.10 ft on 01/01/1887
(3) 30.40 ft on 03/14/1910
(4) 27.90 ft on 04/06/1952
(5) 27.70 ft on 04/08/1897
(6) 27.60 ft on 04/08/1917
(7) 27.40 ft on 01/01/1884
(8) 25.20 ft on 04/14/1899
(9) 22.60 ft on 04/07/1913
(10) 22.50 ft on 03/29/1920
(11) 22.20 ft on 03/28/1939
(12) 22.20 ft on 01/01/1894
(13) 21.86 ft on 04/03/1943
(14) 21.80 ft on 03/29/1947
(15) 21.60 ft on 01/01/1883
(16) 21.20 ft on 04/06/1912
(17) 20.90 ft on 01/01/1888
(18) 19.60 ft on 04/05/1919
(19) 19.60 ft on 03/19/1938
(20) 19.30 ft on 01/01/1896
(21) 19.30 ft on 03/20/1916
(22) 19.20 ft on 01/01/1893
(23) 18.72 ft on 04/17/1950
(24) 18.70 ft on 07/06/1892
(25) 18.60 ft on 03/22/1926
(26) 18.20 ft on 04/07/1904
(27) 17.90 ft on 01/01/1885
(28) 17.80 ft on 03/24/1928
(29) 17.60 ft on 03/23/1918
(30) 17.00 ft on 03/29/1925
(31) 16.90 ft on 04/07/1944
(32) 16.90 ft on 04/02/1906
(33) 16.80 ft on 04/03/1900
(34) 16.60 ft on 04/02/1930
(35) 16.50 ft on 03/20/1936
(36) 16.40 ft on 04/06/
1903
(37) 16.30 ft on 01/01/1891
(38) 16.21 ft on 04/06/1949
(39) 16.11 ft on 03/24/2009
(40) 16.00 ft on 04/05/1951
(41) 14.80 ft on 01/13/1983
(42) 14.58 ft on 12/18/1980
(43) 14.44 ft on 01/01/1989
(44) 14.24 ft on 07/13/1975

(45) 13.66 ft on 03/25/1997

Now  yes the people who are elected officials have wronged the people of Bismarck and should be ashamed of themselves of how they are handling this flood.  People are not getting the info they need and organized help is horrible.  I feel sorry for the people of Bismarck.

I need examples.  Very specific examples and please I and everyone else knows there is unorganization, questions, etc during times like this.  Especially when it is your first go around and like I mentioned, how do you plan for a moving target?  How?  I'll say it again, how?  If this was just a 2009 level the fight to protect the city would already be OVER.  It would be protected and there would be minimal issues.  But when you plan for 21 feet that changes EVERYTHING.

I don't now if you understand how LIDAR works and how expensive it is.  Or how county and city governments work.  Or how budgets are derived from tax payer money, etc.  But let me talk on LIDAR.  The Red River valley had HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY thrown at it to get LIDAR, do the analysis, etc.  Not only that, they started this process way back in the 1990's.  Why?  Because the east is a flat pancake and it was necessary.  Not only necessary but completely affordable because of your tax base and so many agencies pitching in from agriculture, USGS, etc, etc, etc, etc.

You had the UND and NDSU campuses doing a lot of the work as research projects.  Again, out of necessity!!!

Flying LIDAR and doing everything from there requires money and a very good need for it.  The west doesn't have water issues like you guys do.  At least not on the same scale...not even close.  It is just the facts.  So while it sucks for people to not have the info they'd like at a snap of a couple fingers I understand why.  Lets just be grateful there is that data available but not just available at a push of a button.

And in all honesty, anyone who builds in a river area is a fool for not knowing their elevation.  Either get it off your plat or call a survey company.  It is just NOT WISE to not know your elevation if you are in an area of flood concern.  To do it at mass quantity (as I said) would be very, very expensive.  You have to go through the county commissions, etc to get that type of money approved.  So if it isn't happening, people should just do it on their own.

But I'll give it to you, having the data available is key and Bismarck didn't have it.  But maybe explaining why a little will cut them some slack.  If the people are whining about it, they should have been showing up at the meetings pushing for it and definitely shouldn't have been voting down it by not spending the tax money.

By the way the youth of the Red River Valley have won the floods fights for us.

It sounds like to me the volunteer help could be much better but with the population of Bismarck / Mandan and how the real world works getting volunteers isn't the same as Fargo. Do you realize you have two college campuses that accounted for a lot of the work? That's college campuses of thousands of students that have no obligation to their homes, their families or their work compared to what older people do. And as I've said, you have a large population compared to Bismarck. Oh and might I add TWO STATES helping each other.

The schools were SMACK dad in the middle of high school graduation, etc.  Not to mentioned scheduled high school events (track meet).  That caused major complications because people weren't just in a normal day of school.  I don't know what more could have been done?  Forced all of that to cancel??

Also don't bad mouth Fargo to much.  We have sent a Million Sand Bags and all the additional flood fighting stuff.  Sure the trap bags they are awesome.  Sand bags don't help much.  We have also sent down bus loads of people to help as well.

Again, I am going to ask where in the hell did I bad mouth Fargo?  Never have I.  I have not destroyed people that said "why did you build in a flood plain" because in all honesty, that is one of the biggest parts of the equation.  If there wasn't buildings and infrastructure in a flood way there wouldn't be an issue now would there.  But in no damn way is that different from Fargo, Valley City, Minot, Bismarck, Pieree or where-ever.  I understand why communities build around water.  It is vital and when you build cities 100 years ago you just don't up and move them.  So that's why I am not the prick always bringing up building in a flood plain.  I understand...for the most part.

And yes, Fargo is helping out.  That's awesome!  Bismarck sent a bunch of stuff to you guys in 2009 after their fight for the ice jam went away.  Each community has helped each community.

My whole point is people are very short to start pointing fingers.  For cripes sake the spillway gates for the first TIME IN HISTORY have opened up to release actual water.  That is something you simply do not plan for.  If you did, you wouldn't allow ANY GROWTH around the river.  I cannot fault Bismarck and Mandan for feeling safe below the dam that has never seen what is happening now.  The statistics I posted above CLEARLY show that.

But as I have always said, never say never.  It is happening now and what is going down for planning is as good as it can get.  There, is that a good way of saying it?

I have zero faith in people's arguments that if we would have put all the Bismarck officials on a  bus and shipped them to Hiawii for a vacation and replace them with Fargo people that this would be any different.  Why?  Because Fargo would be walking into the same situation...a situation NEVER DEALT WITH EVER.

There have been issues, I'm sure of that.  Mistakes have been made.  Etc, etc.  But this isn't an epic failure.  This is an epic event of unseen proportions.  When you have a river SHAPING itself on the fly and the Corp tearing out spillway roads because they have NO IDEA how the water would flow, react, etc.

And now we have Minot.  Fargo couldn't show up here and work miracles either with planning, etc.  All systems are different beasts.  Minot has done well enough because they have been fighting floods before.  And well, been at it since March and just now getting our highest event and cracking either number 3 or 2 all time with an actual shot at the record (happened in 1880's again).

Crazy water times and my heart goes out to everyone.  Just sat on the phone for fifteen minutes helping a paralyzed man figure out how river gages, the flood induation maps, etc work with one another.  Its one heck of a fight.

Not just to make sure I don't get blamed for bad mouthing Fargo they could obviously offer awesome help from advice on infrasturcuture, storm water issues, sewer issues, etc.  But to come in and say, this is what you do and that's how you do it would be a diaster.  They don't knwo the system, they don't know the river, etc.  Just like they do not know Bismarck.  Bismarck has no idea because this has never happened before plus is a loaded gun.

Yes, Fargo is king in the flood fight but they are not pros of the Missouri.  I'd seek all sort of advice from Fargo and it sounds like to me Bismarck has done that and did it often.  Not sure what else people want out of Bismarck.  That's what I don't get.

 


 

 

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Bob kellam Said:

The Red has it highest in 2009 was only at 29,000CFS so they are dealing with alot of water (3X what we had here) also and its fast moving.
 

Quick search of the USGS site said the peak flow of the Red River in 1997 was 144,000 cfs at Pembina in 1997. Just an FYI

Be safe out there folks we are keeping everyone in the fight in our prayers.

I really don't care what the cfs is.  It has nothing to do with the argument (Bob, not picking on you...just that you have the numbers in it).  For instance, Minot is looking at 10,000 cfs.  So apparently their flood isn't a big issue?  Not even a factor in comparing.

It is what you are use to.  Evidently, it is safe to say Fargo and Grand Forks is use to cfs of 144,000 and they are professionals at handling that.  That's what I'm getting at.  That experience with that cfs is THE WHOLE DIFFERENCE.

Bismarck is use to 30,000 to 60,000 as an extreme.  If Fargo is use to 144,000 then their equivalent would be to prepare for 5 times what they are normally use to!  And they gotta do it in just 8 days time!  Ha, good luck!


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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Deep Breaths!

I'm frustrated too as is everyone. Now is definitely not the time for finger pointing. Most of the community in Bismarck is helping in any way they can rather than playing the blame game. The time for blaming is not now. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who would rather dwell on what "should" have or "could" have been done before anyone knew of the perfect storm that has brewed. Listening to KFYR all day long, I notice that about 90% of the calls are people offering constructive advice, asking necessary questions, and thanking those who have helped. Ther rest of the calls are idiots complaining about things not worth even mentioning. Some of the questions asked during the press conferences leave me shaking my head too. Hind sight isn't much good during a disaster. This Missouri River event is like you said, nothing anyone (alive anyway) has dealt with. Same can be said for what is happening in Devil's Lake, Minot, eastern Montana, Omaha, etc. Shit is crazy right now and everyone just needs to do what they can for themselves and their neighbor to get through it. Then clean up starts and that ought to really be an eye opener. Either way, blaming the officials, decision makers, and people that aren't helping as much as some think they should isn't helping AT ALL. Good luck up in Minot. Looks like the situation there is worse than Bismarck right now.

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We are all in a hell of a battle, let's keep spirits up and not get in pissing matches over crap we can't control.  I want to say that I check fishingbuddy almost as often as official city/public sites for information and it has been quite helpful.  So thanks.

I am heading into the battle up at ponderosa in a few minutes and it literally makes me sick to my stomach when I talk to the homeowners and see how scared they are and some just plane lose it.  So let's be a little bit carefull here about the comments...sure maybe they shouldn't have built that close to the river, but it's too late now.  Let's help and post usufull information and keep it positive.  

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Good points Permo, welcome back to Bismarck!

A lot has been said about what the local politicians and bureaucrats are lacking in when it comes to communication with the public.  Quite honestly, I have not paid enough attention to what is being said, or left unsaid at the press conferences.  Unlike Fargo and GF, they are now in uncharted territory with respect to the threat for Bismarck.  Perhaps some of the people throwing stones at the community leaders should take a quick look in the mirror at their own understanding of what is going on.  Probably not many people in the affected areas of the RRV are as clueless as to what the current river stages mean to them as are the people along the Missouri River, yet they somehow figure the Mayor and his staff are supposed to know exactly at what stage their property is impacted.  Doesn't seem reasonable to me.

On my morning and evening commute through Bismarck, I for one have been fairly impressed at the level of mobilization Bismarck has gone through over a very short amount of time.  They will complete the dikes on time and the vast majority of protectable homes WILL be protected in time.  Not bad, not bad at all in my opinon.

One thing that has somewhat amused me though are the sandbags that litter the roadways.  Kind of reminds me of the sugar beets on the roads around Grand Forks in the fall!

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain

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permo Said:
We are all in a hell of a battle, let's keep spirits up and not get in pissing matches over crap we can't control.  I want to say that I check fishingbuddy almost as often as official city/public sites for information and it has been quite helpful.  So thanks.

I am heading into the battle up at ponderosa in a few minutes and it literally makes me sick to my stomach when I talk to the homeowners and see how scared they are and some just plane lose it.  So let's be a little bit carefull here about the comments...sure maybe they shouldn't have built that close to the river, but it's too late now.  Let's help and post usufull information and keep it positive.  

Very well written.

People I'm sure have a feeling of embarrassment even with the circumstances and that type of feeling brings anger or sorrow or both.  No way is it necessary to continue with type of discussion so I bow out of it.

Good luck Bismarck, I am cheering for you just as I have cheered for every other community in this state.  They call it a flood because they are not normal.  This is just another flood...


 

 

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Allen Said:
Good points Permo, welcome back to Bismarck!

A lot has been said about what the local politicians and bureaucrats are lacking in when it comes to communication with the public.  Quite honestly, I have not paid enough attention to what is being said, or left unsaid at the press conferences.  Unlike Fargo and GF, they are now in uncharted territory with respect to the threat for Bismarck.  Perhaps some of the people throwing stones at the community leaders should take a quick look in the mirror at their own understanding of what is going on.  Probably not many people in the affected areas of the RRV are as clueless as to what the current river stages mean to them as are the people along the Missouri River, yet they somehow figure the Mayor and his staff are supposed to know exactly at what stage their property is impacted.  Doesn't seem reasonable to me.

On my morning and evening commute through Bismarck, I for one have been fairly impressed at the level of mobilization Bismarck has gone through over a very short amount of time.  They will complete the dikes on time and the vast majority of protectable homes WILL be protected in time.  Not bad, not bad at all in my opinon.

One thing that has somewhat amused me though are the sandbags that litter the roadways.  Kind of reminds me of the sugar beets on the roads around Grand Forks in the fall!

Bingo as well.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
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Allen Said:
Good points Permo, welcome back to Bismarck!

A lot has been said about what the local politicians and bureaucrats are lacking in when it comes to communication with the public.  Quite honestly, I have not paid enough attention to what is being said, or left unsaid at the press conferences.  Unlike Fargo and GF, they are now in uncharted territory with respect to the threat for Bismarck.  Perhaps some of the people throwing stones at the community leaders should take a quick look in the mirror at their own understanding of what is going on.  Probably not many people in the affected areas of the RRV are as clueless as to what the current river stages mean to them as are the people along the Missouri River, yet they somehow figure the Mayor and his staff are supposed to know exactly at what stage their property is impacted.  Doesn't seem reasonable to me.

On my morning and evening commute through Bismarck, I for one have been fairly impressed at the level of mobilization Bismarck has gone through over a very short amount of time.  They will complete the dikes on time and the vast majority of protectable homes WILL be protected in time.  Not bad, not bad at all in my opinon.

One thing that has somewhat amused me though are the sandbags that litter the roadways.  Kind of reminds me of the sugar beets on the roads around Grand Forks in the fall!

I remember you being concerned about the homes on the river back in March.  I guess your concerns were warranted.

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Same on minot roads east side of minot.need to slow down a little when making a turn!!

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swanson Said:

Bob kellam Said:

The Red has it highest in 2009 was only at 29,000CFS so they are dealing with alot of water (3X what we had here) also and its fast moving.
 

Quick search of the USGS site said the peak flow of the Red River in 1997 was 144,000 cfs at Pembina in 1997. Just an FYI

Be safe out there folks we are keeping everyone in the fight in our prayers.

On KFGO yesterday, they said 29,000 for Fargo,
it was just like the BS argument on here about Missouri vrs Red (Fargo), and they said almost impossible to compare 100,000cfs to 29,000.

sorry I didn't look it up went off what was said on KFGO

No need to apologize Swanny, a lot of people think once the Red crests in Grand Forks the flooding is done for the year.  

Up north here, well, we know better. I think Drayton peak flow in 97 was about 138,000 cfm, Pembina higher of course because of a couple tributaries dumping into the Red between Drayton and Pembina.

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Dirty. Said:
Deep Breaths!

I'm frustrated too as is everyone. Now is definitely not the time for finger pointing. Most of the community in Bismarck is helping in any way they can rather than playing the blame game. The time for blaming is not now. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who would rather dwell on what "should" have or "could" have been done before anyone knew of the perfect storm that has brewed. Listening to KFYR all day long, I notice that about 90% of the calls are people offering constructive advice, asking necessary questions, and thanking those who have helped. Ther rest of the calls are idiots complaining about things not worth even mentioning. Some of the questions asked during the press conferences leave me shaking my head too. Hind sight isn't much good during a disaster. This Missouri River event is like you said, nothing anyone (alive anyway) has dealt with. Same can be said for what is happening in Devil's Lake, Minot, eastern Montana, Omaha, etc. Shit is crazy right now and everyone just needs to do what they can for themselves and their neighbor to get through it. Then clean up starts and that ought to really be an eye opener. Either way, blaming the officials, decision makers, and people that aren't helping as much as some think they should isn't helping AT ALL. Good luck up in Minot. Looks like the situation there is worse than Bismarck right now.

 You sure said a mouthful there! Say it again! Waters water, and it's all wet no matter where it is or whose house it's in! Good Luck out there guys!!

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I think Permo is right about this. they need all the help and supprt we can offer. so everyone should try and be positive.


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I blame the people in charge of the dams in Nd and the frigging Canadians.those dams north of minot where built for Flood control,not for boating,fishing and game and fish.The Canadians kept their dams full all summer and winter!!imo minot and everybody down steam should not be going Thu this!!some people should be fired!!bye

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I feel for the people out west it is a terrable feeling to have water comeing up and worrying if you dikes are going to hold and not knowing what is going to happen. even when you know it is comeing months in advance it still gives you that feeling in your stomach.  It is even better when people try to give advise on a situation they know nothing about.
Compareing the missori to the red i dont think can be done.  in fargo you are dealing with frozen ground, differant soil  and known elavations fighting a flood  when the ground isnt frozen isnt going to be fun. I bet there isnt a pump left in stores out west.

As far as fargo goes in my opinion they use the news to make it alot worse than it is, on national news they show film from years back to make it worse than it is.
come up to pembina where it the water stays for over 30 days at peak flows.
hopefully the citys out west get everything diked
 

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murdock1978 Said:
I blame the people in charge of the dams in Nd and the frigging Canadians.those dams north of minot where built for Flood control,not for boating,fishing and game and fish.The Canadians kept their dams full all summer and winter!!imo minot and everybody down steam should not be going Thu this!!some people should be fired!!bye

Each dam was at its operating level and even below because they knew they had a blast of melt coming.  Alameda I think was something like 20 feet to spare.  They filled up very quickly because they were hammered with rain while trying to pass the snow melt though.  The combination is what you see happening to the Missouri River.

If it wasn't for the dams, there simply would be no Minot right now.  The 1969 flood would have looked like a picnic.


 

 

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ill have to check into your data!was not what I heard ???

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murdock1978 Said:
ill have to check into your data!was not what I heard ???

Might have to look for archive data but here is a start.  This is what I used to look into all of the dams and flows.

The Minot Daily News articles also have several articles during the later days in April and early part of May.

http://www.swa.ca/WaterManagement/StreamFlowsAndLakeLevels.asp


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
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Wow those videos are wicked, with still a lot more coming.

I dont go around guessing cup sizes either I just know a nice rack when I see one.

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Well Tim.   I hate Fargo more than most people can imagine, but they have their stuff together when it comes to fighting floods.  Yes, Bismarck City Officials should have ordered schools closed, Colleges and high Schools, Pushed the track meet someplace else, Order business's closed all last week, and yes I believe Bismarck would be in far better shape if the officilals from Fargo would have taken over.  Experience.  First thing is they needed to have one major place to fill sand bags not three.  Also they should be dropping them off in neighborhoods... not having people wait in line waiting in pickups.  Next I was listen on the radio and they had a city official say he was only giving the TRAP bags a 50% chance to last and people needed to step up the sandbagging.  Ok That is nuts... No way will a darn sandbag dike last as well as a TRAP Bag dike. 
Also telling everybody to start sandbaggin their homes instead of encoraging people to take care of the neighborhood.
Also I listen to a meeting where people were asking questions and not getting any answers beside silences.  All they talked about was thanking the Gov. and others for their help..... do that crap after you have won. 

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Whatever.


 

 

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Mad Dog Said:
Well Tim.   I hate Fargo more than most people can imagine, but they have their stuff together when it comes to fighting floods.  Yes, Bismarck City Officials should have ordered schools closed, Colleges and high Schools, Pushed the track meet someplace else, Order business's closed all last week, and yes I believe Bismarck would be in far better shape if the officilals from Fargo would have taken over.  Experience.  First thing is they needed to have one major place to fill sand bags not three.  Also they should be dropping them off in neighborhoods... not having people wait in line waiting in pickups.  Next I was listen on the radio and they had a city official say he was only giving the TRAP bags a 50% chance to last and people needed to step up the sandbagging.  Ok That is nuts... No way will a darn sandbag dike last as well as a TRAP Bag dike. 
Also telling everybody to start sandbaggin their homes instead of encoraging people to take care of the neighborhood.
Also I listen to a meeting where people were asking questions and not getting any answers beside silences.  All they talked about was thanking the Gov. and others for their help..... do that crap after you have won. 

It is still of my opinion that it doesn't/didn't matter what the city of Bismarck does.  They are screwed either way.  Snowpack is going to flash melt, coupled with heavy thunderstorms in Eastern MT/Western ND in the next month.  It will overwhelm every reservoir, spillway, and dike in the watershed.

I say to hell with that pot o' gold.

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Hey mad, 2nd that WHAtever!@#%&Ha!

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Enslow Said:
I remember you being concerned about the homes on the river back in March.  I guess your concerns were warranted.

Why yes, yes I was.  It's taken a little time for this to all unfold but she is doing so in spectacular fashion at this point.  Missouri, Souris, Red, James, Sheyenne rivers, all have written (or are writing) new chapters in their flood history this year.

At this point, the Souris and Missouri River dwellers remain quite vulnerable and will need  a little luck along with some serious sweat to get out of this pickle that Mother Nature has tossed their way. 

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain

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What is this 'flash melt' you are reffering to?

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I should be in charge of everything in the state.  Everything.  The first couple years would be messy with all the house cleaning that needs to take place.  But we'd be a model society after that.

I say to hell with that pot o' gold.

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