High Fence Hunting On the Ballot

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Hardwaterman's picture
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Mauser, this email and your claims are the same as 2008 attempt, they where taken from an article that Tom Remington wrote on a Maine blog on another site. It is the same stuff you posted on Nodak back then as well as sending the stuff to the Bismarck Trib.

SO this shows when you whine and complain about truth,etc... you are a bold faced liar not willing to step up and admit the truth. I made a mistake, I owned up to it.

Let's see if you can do the same. Karen is not a sponsor of this measure. So the FC committee and sponsors are not soliciting or knowingly accepting donations from HSUS!!!!!!!!!!!! To claim otherwise is a bold faced lie!

pber, the issue is your sides claims.Whether I collected signatures or not is of no importance other than your attempt to deflect away from the fact that your group of supporters are not being truthful.

I am pretty much done with this, as the claims of HSUS being involved and invited in have been shown to be bogus, so have the claims that your group and groups like FB,FU,Stockmens etc. are really not  concerned about property rights and that they are hypocrites.

We have a choice as voters in ND in Nov to decide if canned shooting is right or wrong. If we pick wrong, then the Leg is tasked with implementation of the law and all the BS about it affecting livestock traditional livestock is again a bogus attempt to scare uninformed.

So pber,gst,mauser,etc.... You want truth, then be truthful, otherwise I think billboards showing the tagged bull from the Mertz operation with a short story line will make a great impression across ND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Ronnie I will be in ND most of the winter and I would like to disscuss this comment with you face to face.  "

"SO this shows when you whine and complain about truth,etc... you are a bold faced liar not willing to step up and admit the truth. I made a mistake, I owned up to it."

Dewey

 

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Ron,

Where have I or others actually said that HSUS is a sponsor.  They have actively been a supporter in the past!  The email that you referenced was received by many people including myself, as well as Mr. Remington.  Anyone can sign up with them to receive their email alerts.   They also had a page solely committed last go round to the ND initiative on their website.  It was linked directly to the Fair Chase website. 

Also Karen sent out emails with Roger’s correspondence.  Roger also admitted meeting with David Pauli, Regional HSUS Director.  Dick Monson gave talks to animal shelters.

Just because this all happened last go round, we are all supposed to just forget about it.  Do you honestly believe they would get caught again?  Now if the players had changed I might tend to believe that HSUS was not involved. 

And lets not forget that one of the federal sponsors used his title around the state in articles and sent out email/emails from his federal office stating a position on high fence hunting and is presently a sponsor again.

At least the elk growers can say that the involvement with the Mertz operation no longer exists.  The elk growers do have regulations that they follow.  Can you say the same about Roger, Dick, Gary and Lloyd?

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Ronnie  This is on the HSUS web site no matter how much name calling you use the fact remains the HSUS is on of your bigger supporters (not sponsor) now that the RMEF has pulled its endorement of the FCI. 

http://www.hsus.org/legislation_laws/ballot_initiatives/2008_ballot_initiatives.html

In North Dakota, HSUS members and supporters helped to gather signatures to place a measure on the ballot to halt the captive shooting of wildlife behind escape proof fences. Unfortunately the measure was not approved, but we will continue working to end the egregious practice of captive hunting.

Imprtant words for you to read   "but we will continue "

 

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I think I'll vote against it even though I'm not a fan of wild animal confinement.    Property rights trump imho.   What next?

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French."  Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
 -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

 

 

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Ron as to the ag groups you mention and their stance on property rights, can you show where anyone of those groups claim property rights are absolute? Let me answer that for you, no you can not because that is not their stance. It is no secret these are agriculture based orgs so their primary focas is advocating for agriculture. Just as DU is a wildlife based org and their primary focas is advocating for waterfowl. You act as if that is a crime when it comes to the orgs representing the largest industry here in ND, outside of a possibly growing energy industry.
 
We have had a conversation regarding the land sale issue on more than one occassion in the past and I have clearly stated that the proccess in place allows for the pros and cons of each sale to be adressed according to state law. Some are denied based on usage and impact, others are allowed. ALL based on state law the citizens of this state had a part in creating thru the respresentatives they send to Bismarck. You and a handful of others are simply not satisfied until ALL are approved regardless of the impact to our state.

As to the issue being discussed, the usage of an animal with a long held and clearly defined  as privately owned domestic farmed animals, being used in compliance with all state health and humane regulatory measures in place, the orgs you mention believe that is the right of the owner of these animals to do so. When this right is infringed upon it begins a very dangerous precedence. Those directly ivolved in ag (unlike yourself) know this. One only has to point to the horse industry to see the result of a small group of zealots with an agenda has had on an entire industry thru their use of lies and emotional rhetoric to ban the slaughter of horses here in the US. At no time in history has the varying animal ag industries faced such an onslaught of anti animal ag agendas as we are seeing right now. Nor have there been groups with as much monies and political connections as what we are now facing. (I have posted many links proving this) To those in ag, even though many will not believe the "hunting" aspect of these opperations are what we personally would choose to take from the experience, we understand that these are merely, as well as legally defined, domestic animals that are being use by a handful of operations here in ND to add to creating income for their families. As Ag orgs we understand and support the right of an individual to do so.

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Im not voting for this at all.

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Hardwaterman Said:
Mauser, how about  Clois Hetletved as one example in Kidder County as well as the land in McLean as well.

So if selling a canned shoot is all about property rights then why should the rightful owner of land not be able to sell his land for double market value just because of who is buying it?

So unless you or gst or anyone else who claims this is a property rights issue come out and support people like the Hetletved's your whine and claim is BS!

Hard,

Would you approve of land sales if it was to the HSUS?  That's why people should have commission meetings, etc.  You can't sell land to China so I don't think you should be able to sell land to the HSUS either.  Obviously it is on a per base scenario and what the land is already zoned for but I think you get my point.


 

 

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Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
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So, now that the ground work is clear, it will be fine to show the Mertz bull and use it to support the ban on canned shooting!!!!!!!!

gst, you then admit that it is OK for property rights to be limited or restricted.

We are getting somewhere now!

Dewey, I am in the phone book, I have no issue in discussing it face to face. I simply am pointing out that you tried and claimed that this was from this measure and it was not.

 

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Tim I will say this so you clearly understand it! I am not in favor of a repeal of the Corp farming laws, my only point in this was to show the blatant hypocrisy of the claims about supporting property rights. Of all the rights of ownership, choice of whom you sell to certainly is more important than this issue. Think I am wrong? Go ask your neighbors which one they feel is more important to them. Being able to sell canned shooting, or selling their land when the time comes for the most money they can or to whom they chose!

Let us know what they say!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Hardwaterman Said:
aba, no more than I am OK with canned shooting!!!!!!!!!!!! But the point is that you cannot whine and hide behind property rights as a reason, to keep canned shooting and not support the landowner the right to sell to whomever they want!!! You cannot spin away from this! It is kind of like being a little bit pregnant! You either are or are not!!!!!!!!

Hardwaterman,

I am less educated and for sure less versed in lobbying, sitting in at commissioner meetings, etc, etc, etc than many people commenting on this thread (you included).  But you trying to pin people as hypocrites on private property rights WHILE COMPARING it to this HF issue is not a strong argument.  At least in my opinion.

The taking of a private property right in this case is because someone or the public is saying it is not okay to shoot a pen raised animal.  While I totally agree it is not fair chase the animals being shot are held to standard by well established laws.  On that note, I believe it is much more wise to attack these operations by doing campaigns on how it is in fact pen shoots and NOT FAIR CHASE.  Take the customer away by educating them about what fair chase really is and you no longer have a product to sell.  They go away and they go away in a fair matter instead of the public acting on emotion and ripping a livelihood away from private property owners that already cooperate with the law.

So that's that and I'm not going to waste my fingers on saying that again.  Apples to apples hardwater.

And someone mentioned dancers and smoking.  In my opinion, the smoking ban is a ridiculous ban.  Smoking was already becoming a moot point.  Far and I strongly state FAR less people smoke now.  The public is aware, they understand smoking is a bad thing for your health.  The public legislated themselves without making laws yet, some people just couldn't keep their big fat fingers out of state and federal law.  They wanted bans put in place.  It disgusts me when people do that in such cases of smoking and also with this HF ban.  Why do we rip rights away from people when they don't need to be?  There should be no reason a guy can't have a smoking only restaurant or bar.  Just like I think it is wrong to rip away a right of raising a domesticated animal and selling it.  Do I despise people who shoot them and call themselves mighty hunters?  You're damn right I do but I also hate smoke.  I can't stand smoke in fact.  But I will never support the smoking ban.  Never.

Apples to apples people.  There are other powerful ways to get our "ethic" beliefs enforced in society.  Building laws that serve as building blocks (directly or indirectly) is not the way to go unless there is a serious and legitamate reason for them.  I garauntee you it won't be long and they'll be after fast food joints.  Who knows where this HF law could go or spawn.

Hence my dislike of laws ripping rights from people based on emotion.  Or because someone likes a certain bar but it has smoke at it and they want the smoke removed.  Just don't go to it and don't go shoot a pen raised animal.  Make fun of smokers (I make fun of my own brother and uncle) and make fun of people shooting pen raised animals.  I got my brother to quit smoking because of the grief I gave him.  You can get people to stop shooting pen raised animals by doing the same thing!


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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Here is a portion of an email I gor back from a person in the managment of the RMEF
.....................................................................................................................................................

Dewey – Thanks for the inquiry.  RMEF is not putting any money into the Fair Chase Initiative in North Dakota.  Please answer my question.  Do you believe it is ok (right, ethical, etc) to shoot elk and deer in high fenced enclosures where they cannot escape?

...................................................................................................................
Ronnie now that you are the spokesman for the FCI

Why would to RMEF give the petition drive  in Mt. $50,000 in a donation and not give anything to the FCI in North Dakota?  
Could there be an integrity issue?

I see the RMEF 'S endorsement has been removed from the FC webb site.

Anyone want the full RMEF emainl PM me

 

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Tim no matter how you try to compare things, these issues are probably the best to show the real hypocrisy regarding the  argument made by these organizations and others. When people brought forth the exact argument you suggested, the supporters of HAS claimed property rights and that we should not take away a livelihood. Claimed it was about greed and jealousy. Keeping a person from selling his or her land for the most money they can is a result of greed and jealousy as well.

So while you and I may disagree on this issue, you cannot say that my position of calling them out on their policy being hypocritical is not valid or accurate.
 

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Ronnie it is hard to believe but I do think you are getting to be  Roger Kaseman cloned!!

But keep it up.    Could you post where Mauser g33-40 ever posted on in the Tribune?

Accuracy is important.

 

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Hardwaterman Said:
Tim no matter how you try to compare things, these issues are probably the best to show the real hypocrisy regarding the  argument made by these organizations and others. When people brought forth the exact argument you suggested, the supporters of HAS claimed property rights and that we should not take away a livelihood. Claimed it was about greed and jealousy. Keeping a person from selling his or her land for the most money they can is a result of greed and jealousy as well.

So while you and I may disagree on this issue, you cannot say that my position of calling them out on their policy being hypocritical is not valid or accurate.
 

I don't think it is invalid or inaccurate.  I just think it falls short of being a good strong example.  It is important to have hearings on land sales.

If you want me to say that private property is infringed upon quite a bit, I agree.  And I guess that is my point.  In this regard, I don't see the danger to society here or the livelihood of North Dakota being destroyed.  Do I see it against fair chase and maybe being linkable to the spread of outfitting, etc?  Yes, I sure do.  But not enough where I think a initiative should be the answer to it.

I think education should be used instead of pure raw emotional force.  That there is my biggest beef with this whole thing.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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mauserG33-40 Said:
Ronnie it is hard to believe but I do think you are getting to be  Roger Kaseman cloned!!

But keep it up.    Could you post where Mauser g33-40 ever posted on in the Tribune?

Accuracy is important.

Never saw a post from Mauser on there, but at one point there was a fella hanging around the Tribune website that went by the name of "Show Me", or something like that.  If it wasn't you, then you should track his arse down and beat him about the head and shoulders for stealing your material.  There were a number of times on this similar topics where he copied your words (spelling mistakes and all) and posted them on the Trib's comments section.

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain

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Allen Said:

mauserG33-40 Said:
Ronnie it is hard to believe but I do think you are getting to be  Roger Kaseman cloned!!

But keep it up.    Could you post where Mauser g33-40 ever posted on in the Tribune?

Accuracy is important.

Never saw a post from Mauser on there, but at one point there was a fella hanging around the Tribune website that went by the name of "Show Me", or something like that.  If it wasn't you, then you should track his arse down and beat him about the head and shoulders for stealing your material.  There were a number of times on this similar topics where he copied your words (spelling mistakes and all) and posted them on the Trib's comments section.

Would you please post them??

 

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Hardwaterman Said:
Mauser, this email and your claims are the same as 2008 attempt, they where taken from an article that Tom Remington wrote on a Maine blog on another site. It is the same stuff you posted on Nodak back then as well as sending the stuff to the Bismarck Trib.

SO this shows when you whine and complain about truth,etc... you are a bold faced liar not willing to step up and admit the truth. I made a mistake, I owned up to it.

Let's see if you can do the same. Karen is not a sponsor of this measure. So the FC committee and sponsors are not soliciting or knowingly accepting donations from HSUS!!!!!!!!!!!! To claim otherwise is a bold faced lie!

pber, the issue is your sides claims.Whether I collected signatures or not is of no importance other than your attempt to deflect away from the fact that your group of supporters are not being truthful.

I am pretty much done with this, as the claims of HSUS being involved and invited in have been shown to be bogus, so have the claims that your group and groups like FB,FU,Stockmens etc. are really not  concerned about property rights and that they are hypocrites.

We have a choice as voters in ND in Nov to decide if canned shooting is right or wrong. If we pick wrong, then the Leg is tasked with implementation of the law and all the BS about it affecting livestock traditional livestock is again a bogus attempt to scare uninformed.

So pber,gst,mauser,etc.... You want truth, then be truthful, otherwise I think billboards showing the tagged bull from the Mertz operation with a short story line will make a great impression across ND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ronnie I was kicked off Nodak in April of 2007 ,Tom Remington wrote his story in July of 2008  How did I post it on Nodak?  Your accuray is mostly lies.

http://northdakotahuntingtoday.com/blog/index.php/2008/07/11/north-dakota-fair-chase-official-meets-with-hsus-regional-director/

 

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Ronnie you keep harping that HSUS is not sponsers but they seem to think they are.

According to Red River Farm Network, new legislation is slated to be brought up regarding ag operations and hunting "operations".

Red River Farm Network
April 14, 2008

Animal Rights Group Brings Cause to the Ballot Box -- An animal rights initiative

will be on the California ballot this fall. This provision would ban the use of

swine gestation stalls, chicken battery cages and veal calf hutches. The Humane

Society of the United States donated more than $1.4 million to the California

campaign. The animal rights group says it is sponsoring ballot measures in three

other states, including North Dakota. The North Dakota ballot measure would prohibit

canned hunting operations; the shooting of animals within a fenced enclosure for a

fee.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=52454&p=417788#p417788

 

 

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Does anyone believe that if HFH gets outlaw the HSUS or other anits will quit and leave ND alone? Next might be Mountian Lions, bowhunting, dove shoots, etc. It's a slippery slope. Even if you don't HFH as most here don't (even the ones against banning it) Please don't vote for this law. This will just be the start of laws to follow.

I got a idea- Don't HFH if you don't like it . HFH if you do like it.

Hard- just don't do it and leave it alone for others to decide for themselves.

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mauserG33-40 Said:
Ronnie you keep harping that HSUS is not sponsers but they seem to think they are.

According to Red River Farm Network, new legislation is slated to be brought up regarding ag operations and hunting "operations".

Red River Farm Network
April 14, 2008

Animal Rights Group Brings Cause to the Ballot Box -- An animal rights initiative

will be on the California ballot this fall. This provision would ban the use of

swine gestation stalls, chicken battery cages and veal calf hutches. The Humane

Society of the United States donated more than $1.4 million to the California

campaign. The animal rights group says it is sponsoring ballot measures in three

other states, including North Dakota. The North Dakota ballot measure would prohibit

canned hunting operations; the shooting of animals within a fenced enclosure for a

fee.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=52454&p=417788#p417788

 

ooops.

 

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Just to be clear Mauser, the same stuff I was referring to is the dribble that you speak in regards to this issue. I at least got you to admit this email is from 2008 which is what I said! It was posted by LT on Nodak and maybe others as well.

Back then just as know you try and make the issue about something else.

Unlike the last couple times, this time the people get to vote and the spin doctors have no new material.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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bdog, do you really believe that these groups will leave ND alone even without this measure? You are sounding like those who think if we simply ignore the terrorists they will go away as well!!!!!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Hardwaterman Said:
Just to be clear Mauser, the same stuff I was referring to is the dribble that you speak in regards to this issue. I at least got you to admit this email is from 2008 which is what I said! It was posted by LT on Nodak and maybe others as well.

Back then just as know you try and make the issue about something else.

Unlike the last couple times, this time the people get to vote and the spin doctors have no new material.

Ronnie if you click on the blue letters at the bottom of the post you will see it was not LT making the post it was bjertness7

Do it twiice and you  and read it twice and you will know who made the post.

 

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Mauser,

Next time I see any comments on the Trib that appear to be plagiarism of your FBO posts, I will do that for you. I can't recall seeing anything from your fellow Misourian for maybe 8-12 months though, so maybe he fell off the planet.

Wonder how deep the Trib's server is for the comments section?

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain

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Is there like a Guinness World Record for the length or number of posts on a thread?   Maybe someone should check.        There is a difference between local HS animal shelters and their national  political operation.   I liken that relationship as being similar to the NRA who’s political/legislation operation is set apart from field operations.    Some of the NRA field guys will tell you the legislative people get a little crazy sometimes in their political wars.     It’s also like the National Wildlife Federation who’s state affiliates  are not dependant or sometimes might even oppose the national group.  I suspect some of the ag groups like the Farm Bureau operate in a similar fashion. Local HS shelters are, in my experience, not political but may have some people that work or volunteer that take an interest in an issue.     Many local HS shelters contract with law enforcement and perform a very valuable community service.     I had a friend that used to own a pet store in Bismarck and he would often donate all his free samples of pet food to the HS shelter in Mandan because they were always cash strapped.    I don’t think the national group provided them money, or if they did it wasn’t enough because they were always looking for handouts and having fundraisers.    I could care less if some HS volunteers or employees helped gather signatures, if they did.   That doesn’t mean anything other than those  people support the measure and wanted to volunteer.    Big deal.
 
I have little doubt the national HS group will issue claims of support or endorsement for the measure, just like other national groups will issue statements opposed.    That’s what groups do.    I would be concerned if the HSUS was funding or actively working with the sponsors of the measure.   If so, I would question the sponsors judgment.     Imho, the HSUS has no business getting involved in this issue.    If they do get involved I hope it was/is only because they wouldn’t listen to the sponsors who told them to butt out, and are acting on there own.   No amount of money or support is worth getting in bed with those people.
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Allen Said:
Mauser,

Next time I see any comments on the Trib that appear to be plagiarism of your FBO posts, I will do that for you. I can't recall seeing anything from your fellow Misourian for maybe 8-12 months though, so maybe he fell off the planet.

Wonder how deep the Trib's server is for the comments section?

I don't know how deep they go or how shallow even,but I will be in Bismark for about 2,5 months very soon maybe I can find out for you. 

 

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I have little doubt the national HS group will issue claims of support or endorsement for the measure, just like other national groups will issue statements opposed.    That’s what groups do.    I would be concerned if the HSUS was funding or actively working with the sponsors of the measure.   If so, I would question the sponsors judgment.     Imho, the HSUS has no business getting involved in this issue.    If they do get involved I hope it was/is only because they wouldn’t listen to the sponsors who told them to butt out, and are acting on there own.   No amount of money or support is worth getting in bed with those people.
..............................................................................................................................................................

Ladd that is just amazing I am sure Wayne Pacelle Prs.& Ceo of the HSUS is just plain lieing about meeting with a FC offical,many references in support of the FCI drive.   Why don't you just get him to email you and the FC group that he Wayn Pacelle and the HSUS has been asked to but out, that would clear everything right up. No problem.  Ronnie maybe you can get an emial from  Wayne and just tell him he is a ball face lier and to but out and get everything off his webb site that refers to ND.

The truth will set you free!!!! 

 

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You're amazed that I would say that I think it would be bad judgement to get in bed with the HSUS?   I didn't read the email you're talking about.   Did it say they met and the sponsors asked for support from them?    What did the sponsor say at the meeting according to that or other emails?   Was the email between the HS and sponsor(s) or one of those mass deals?  

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Ladd Said:
You're amazed that I would say that I think it would be bad judgement to get in bed with the HSUS?   I didn't read the email you're talking about.   Did it say they met and the sponsors asked for support from them?    What did the sponsor say at the meeting according to that or other emails?   Was the email between the HS and sponsor(s) or one of those mass deals?  

The email I was talking about before you tryed to spin everything is as Follows.
I think you or  Ron should email Wayne and ask him if anyone has asked him to but out,who if anyone has ask him(Wayne) to backed out, is he supporting   the FCI. as he has stated with anything besides words.   This would clear any and all dought if there is any envolovement wtih the HSUS.  I am asking why an email is not sent by you or FC supporters to clear up wether there was HSUS envolment in both the 1st and the 2nd petition drive.

Am I clear now that it is an email that needs to be sent not one in hand.   The questions you ask above then would be answered. 

 

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pber Said:

Ron,

Where have I or others actually said that HSUS is a sponsor. 

Read mausers posts.

It's not that bad.

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ladd,you are aware there are two very seperate "Humane Societies" here in the US? One is the strongly radical animal rights group that wants to end the use of all animals for ag or hunting purposes (HSUS Humane Society of the United States), and the local animal shelters you mention that care for unwanted pets,( HSOA, Humane Society of America) without other agendas. There is a reason one cabbaged onto a similar name as the other.
And more and more frequently the HSUS is taking over the local shelters as they are getting far more donations than the HSoA because of their tactics.

Have you taken the time to go back and read espringers posts in this thread and his take on this issue?

Sportsman,can you show a statementwhere mauser has said directly HSUS is a sponsor? You do realize there is a difference between being a sponsor and suggesting someone is communicating with sponsors and advocating for this measure don't you?
 
Ron if you were involved in agriculture, what would you want the groups representing you to advocate for??????? I have clearly explained the laws regarding the issues you continueally harp on yet you do not seem to want to realize it was the state legislature with input from wildlife groups that came up with the Natural Lands Aquisition Committee and the rules it operate under. Yet you seem to be unhappy that 100 % of these sales are not allowed to go thru. Answer Tims question,would you want a group like HSUS buying land here in ND?

Ron if you wish to debate an issue, you have to answer questions when they are asked, otherwise it is simply argueing.

We were always told growing up never argue with a fool as people will eventually not be able to tell who is who after awhile.

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gst, the point remains that one has restrictions upon them if they are property owners. This bill if passed will simply be another restriction, but not one nearly as severe nor with the impact that the land sale has especially for those reaching retirement. I did answer Tim but you missed it completely. So I will say it again, I am in favor of the current Corp Farm law, I am not in favor of a board that is predisposed to oppose every sale! That was not the intent of why and how the system was set up to work. But you keep referring to laws, which is what this bill would be simply another law that for the most part will affect only 12 or so operations, but the land sale in reality affects everyone who is an owner of Ag land. In regards to HSUS being a purchaser of land, well here is a news flash for you, I believe that they already own land in ND!

Now Dewey, when making a claim as you have that HSUS is behind and participating factor in the gathering of signatures, it is up to you to prove it. Not me, or Ladd or others to disprove it. All you have is an old email from 2008 that is not part of this current measure. I do not know Karen, never spoke to her,sent her an email etc... I do know that Ladd put what you are claiming in its proper perspective.

The nuts and bolts of the scare tactics I do believe have been shown. Most people are really not going to be fooled by the false claims. They will as I have stated before decide if this is right or wrong for ND.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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I admit that I haven't been following all the stuff on this thread.   I check in once in a while.   I realize that there is a difference between local HS shelter and the national group but got the impression others were equating the two.  If some local HS people met with some sponsors of the measure I don't think that means very much.   To me it's like meeting with the rotary club depending on who the people involved are.  I still don't know what email mauser is referring to.   I went back a few pages and found one that didn't say anything about a meeting that I saw?    There must be two emails from that Wayne dude?   Tim - point of order, you need to put a search engine within these long threads.     But if I am understanding the dispute between hardwaterman and mauser it's about a meeting between the HSUS and the sponsors or Kaseman and an email that the HSUS sent out about that meeting.   I am just asking, did that email state what the sponsors position was at the meeting?   It would matter to me if the sponsors were asking the HSUS for money,  for example, and the email said that.

Or,  let's say mauser and hardwaterman agree to met at Perkins and discuss their dispute.   After the meeting hardwaterman sends out an email about the meeting to his supporters.   Does that automatically mean that mauser agrees now with hardwaterman or with what was said in the email?   maybe maybe not?   

War story.   A couple sessions ago I was working on a livestock bill and testified in the House ag committee.   After the hearing some lady introduced herself to me.  She worked for the Dakota Resource Council (DRC).  One of the ag group lobbists who was at the hearing and is a friend of one of my commissioners called him and asked if I belonged to the DRC.   I had never met anyone from that group before and had to laugh.   Sometimes the Sierra Club gets involved in issues in my county and I meet with them.   Maybe they send out emails about those meetings, I don't know.   What does that mean?  Because I met with someone I endorse their agenda?    In that light, is there an email that commits the sponsors to assistance from the HSUS?   That's all I am asking.   I could care less that they met.  

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Ok Ronnie you have stated the FC sponsores have told you there is no HSUS in the 2nd petition drive wouldn't it be up to you to prove to all that is true? Of course you also have stated more than once the two petitions are worded differently. If the sponsores have told you this who are they?    Isn't that what Ladd would ask? You keep saying in THIS Petition drive.  

I believe what this article says and with the most of the same people as sponsors are on the 2nd petition it is accurate.   I asure you I am not the only one.

  http://idahohuntingtoday.com/blog/index.php/2008/07/11/north-dakota-fair-chase-official-meets-with-hsus-regional-director/
 

 

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Perfect example....While everyone met at Perkins for breakfast; the coffee would have triggered one of the parties to post up. Another party would have realized this and left the scene while grabbing the daily news. The person inviting everyone soon would realize what is going on and bail as well.This would leave the waitress (representing the proprietor) to deal with a situation she has no control over.While he owns the restauraunt; he has no knowledge of the activities in his establishment. He does what he feels is right and values his CUSTOMERS. He fires the waitress who cleaned up the crap. Or perhaps he he has only a small stake in a mom and pop.He watches his toilets, cooks the vittles, and his reastaurant is his living, Both entities have the luxury of setting their own menu. While the small guy probably doesn't have "scallops" on his menu; his would be the place to eat.

One step at a time...Be careful.

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If you are not at the table you are probably on the menu.

PikePits said,



Perfect example....While everyone met at Perkins for breakfast; the coffee would have triggered one of the parties to post up. Another party would have realized this and left the scene while grabbing the daily news. The person inviting everyone soon would realize what is going on and bail as well.This would leave the waitress (representing the proprietor) to deal with a situation she has no control over.While he owns the restauraunt; he has no knowledge of the activities in his establishment. He does what he feels is right and values his CUSTOMERS. He fires the waitress who cleaned up the crap. Or perhaps he he has only a small stake in a mom and pop.He watches his toilets, cooks the vittles, and his reastaurant is his living, Both entities have the luxury of setting their own menu. While the small guy probably doesn't have "scallops" on his menu; his would be the place to eat.
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You are sounding like those who think if we simply ignore the terrorists they will go away as well!!!!!

Hard- At least you are starting to understand who you are getting into bed with. If they can win one here in ND it sure  would make them think they could win another.

I think Tim has had the best option yet. Educate people as to fair chase and let the market decide HFH's fate.

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bdog that is what most are trying to do that support this! To not correct false claims like Mauser, or call out the scare tactic attempts like pber,gst that is part of the education process. Would or should one sit back and allow them to spew untruths without a challenge?

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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mauserG33-40 Said:
Ok Ronnie you have stated the FC sponsores have told you there is no HSUS in the 2nd petition drive wouldn't it be up to you to prove to all that is true? Of course you also have stated more than once the two petitions are worded differently. If the sponsores have told you this who are they?    Isn't that what Ladd would ask? You keep saying in THIS Petition drive.  

I believe what this article says and with the most of the same people as sponsors are on the 2nd petition it is accurate.   I asure you I am not the only one.

  http://idahohuntingtoday.com/blog/index.php/2008/07/11/north-dakota-fair-chase-official-meets-with-hsus-regional-director/
 

Are you saying Tom Remminton is lieing also?    Would you truthfully answer the above questions?  Yes Ronnie this is a to you. 

 

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Ron, answer one question, if they are indeed "untruthes" as you claim, why are the sponsors, some of whom have put years of their lives into this measure not the ones coming on here to dispute them??? And please do not try the lame excuse of them being abused on this site, Kaseman delt plenty of abuse to those that disagreed with him during the collection process. 

Ron, so you are claiming as a nonprofit, HSUS has bought agricultural land here in ND?????

The consequenes of unfettered land sales to any nonprofit org. does as you say have effects on most every NDan, that is why the state has seen fit to create this method where by these sales are looked at on an individual basis. You re starting to see the reason why these sales must be regulated! It seems you believe the law should apply, just not to one like DU that YOU want to own land here in ND. I asked you a question to point out anywhere these ag groups you love to harp about have ever stated property rights are absolute. You really do not like to answer questions that make your position look less than favorable do you.

You have been asked any number of quesions on here about the HF measure you have not answered. On Nodak you were asked several as well and you simply used your standard "I know best" without giving any factual basis for anyone. One would think the sponsors of this measure would want to come on here and set the record straight factually so if you have any connection to them that would give you an insight into a differing position other than the one they have already publically stated that the Federal Lacey Act will be used to put the teeth in the enforcementof this measure, please have them set the record straight themselves rather than sitting back and letting you try to do it for them. Otherwise espringers comments about the sponsors not coming on here and discussing certain aspects because they do not want to have to answer direct difficult specific questions, and hoping no one else does is beginning to look more and more like the way it will be in regards to the public being informed in any way about this measure by the people who sponsored it.

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Hardwaterman Said:
Just to be clear Mauser, the same stuff I was referring to is the dribble that you speak in regards to this issue. I at least got you to admit this email is from 2008 which is what I said! It was posted by LT on Nodak and maybe others as well.

Back then just as know you try and make the issue about something else.

Unlike the last couple times, this time the people get to vote and the spin doctors have no new material.

I have watched this mauser versus the world dialog with relatively little thought.  It is just back and forth arguing.  But it is starting to hijack the thread.  So guys, maybe it is time to just take a rest.

But, ha ha, I am going to ask a question that will most likely keep it going.  I wouldn't ask, but I think it is an interesting question.  Here it is.

Hard,

Why does it matter if it was posted in 2008 or 2010?  This petition has been around since then and never showed signs of letting up.  I garauntee you if HSUS was adamant about it in 2008 they are more than adamant about it in 2010.  Groups like this use time as their aid.  They bore a person to death and then pounce.  They remind me of the Corp and TAT with the land transfer.

So I think we should just accept that HSUS is defnitely involved in one way or another and just accept that the letter was written in 2008 and it is still alive and well in 2010.  Then we can free up the thread again.  That goes for both mauser and you.  Agreed?


 

 

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Hardwaterman Said:
bdog, do you really believe that these groups will leave ND alone even without this measure? You are sounding like those who think if we simply ignore the terrorists they will go away as well!!!!!

No, I don't think they will.

A question back, do you think this measure won't aid them in future agendas?


 

 

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Tim Sandstrom Said:

Hardwaterman Said:
Just to be clear Mauser, the same stuff I was referring to is the dribble that you speak in regards to this issue. I at least got you to admit this email is from 2008 which is what I said! It was posted by LT on Nodak and maybe others as well.

Back then just as know you try and make the issue about something else.

Unlike the last couple times, this time the people get to vote and the spin doctors have no new material.

I have watched this mauser versus the world dialog with relatively little thought.  It is just back and forth arguing.  But it is starting to hijack the thread.  So guys, maybe it is time to just take a rest.

But, ha ha, I am going to ask a question that will most likely keep it going.  I wouldn't ask, but I think it is an interesting question.  Here it is.

Hard,

Why does it matter if it was posted in 2008 or 2010?  This petition has been around since then and never showed signs of letting up.  I garauntee you if HSUS was adamant about it in 2008 they are more than adamant about it in 2010.  Groups like this use time as their aid.  They bore a person to death and then pounce.  They remind me of the Corp and TAT with the land transfer.

So I think we should just accept that HSUS is defnitely involved in one way or another and just accept that the letter was written in 2008 and it is still alive and well in 2010.  Then we can free up the thread again.  That goes for both mauser and you.  Agreed?

Yes Tim I will agree,The HSUS is like the cute puppy that followed you home and before long it is running your household.

Need to get down town as there is a tea party meeting this morning!!!

 

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Tim it is sure beginning to look as if the sponsors are willing to sit back and let the "weapons" here on FBO beused to distract the discussion of this issue from the questions it appears they do not want publically answered as has been suggested could possibly happen. I would wager that steak dinner bet once again that the sponsors are aware of this discussion and yet are not willing to come on the states number one hunting website and set the record straight on a measure they claim is meant to protect the heritage of hunting. Even the most blindly partisan must be wondering why, unless they know already and are willing to merely be used by these sponsors as a distraction from getting to the facts straight from the horses mouth.

Perhaps an invitation from the head guy on the site to come on here to set the record straight would entice them to bring to the table the facts the citizens the supporters like Ron claim will determine the fate of thismeasure deserve to know in making their desicion. If they are not willing to do so, it says quite a bit about thier measure and the debate(arguement) that has been held on it.

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P.S.

I could personally care less if HSUS is a sponsor.  And for crying out loud, does anyone really think they would make it known they are a sponsor?

To be, it doesn't matter.  The HSUS loves this initiative.  Why?  Because it is exactly the kind of thing they stand for.  So I believe it is rather silly to argue that HSUS is not interested, is not on stand by and will just leave other things in North Dakota alone after it gets passed (assuming it does).

On that note, why are we bickering about this?  Seriously, why?  Again, that goes to mauser and hardwater (and everyone else).  HSUS obviously stands for these kind of things.  And just for the sake of putting this to rest lets just say they are NOT A SPONSOR or helping in anyway.  IT DOESN'T MATTER, THEY STILL ARE A THREAT AND THEIR MISSION MORE THAN PROVES THEY APPROVE OF THIS MEASURE.

Hence, the whole open up the door statements!

See, simple.  Conversation over.  Lets move onto the next item.


 

 

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Tim, HSUS is against most everything related to livestock or hunting and fishing. They do this for the sole purpose of fund raising. You ask why it matters if this is 08 vs 10 and the answer is simple fund raising. They can claim support, but if they are not involved they will not receive funds raised from it. Back in 08 they where not involved, a person who works for or was a volunteer at the shelter in Minot who agrees with the measure did what people do. The spin made it appear that HSUS was funding and backing this with the support of the sponsors. So to be clear I do not agree with your statement as it is wrong.

That is why it is important today to not allow the same false spin to be paraded around as fact. If this measure passes it does not open the doors wider for other things, anymore than they are already open. It will not bolster them to try and move an agenda forward mainly because they normally only do this when it will give them revenue streams. Local in state and surrounding state support will not increase or decrease from this for them. Nationally it will play out either way. If this passes they will seek donations to do this other places. If it fails they will seek donations to carry this forward! So they will spin it either way. Hence the outcome for them is a non factor.
By not allowing HSUS to be drawn in and used as a scare tactic local shelters all over the state that provide services that are needed will benifit as tactics by Mauser and the like will not sully them.

If you want this to go away you can lock the thread and stop any others from appearing for very long. I realize this is not a free speech site, just like any other owned site where those in charge have full control.

I would hope that you would chose to allow debate to continue on this for two reasons. One being that it has proven to be a good source of info if people are willing to look pass the drive by comments. Two I would hope you simply would not end this simply because you have a different view than others.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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FBO isn't a free speech right?  Jeepers, now we are going to start comparing how free speech isn't really free speech just like private property rights aren't private property rights.  Then tack the hypocrisy onto it, etc. 

I'm not locking the thread.  I am just saying you and mauser can go around and around and disallow future posts because people are going to get bored with this.  HSUS is involved whether it is indirect or direct (I assume a little of both).

To think HSUS is not drooling is blatantly an oversight.  They are watching.  Hence, why keep trying to prove or disprove they are or aren't.  Obviously, the answer is they are.  And I don't really care.  I assume they are and that's why we must be weary of this and how this gets put in the books, interpreted by the legislature (the fixes that obviously are going to be needed), etc.

Just like everyone though it was all goody goody with the horse thing.  Bam, whacked in the back of the head.  Chickens are next.  The door is open and I'll repeat from my previous paragraph.  To think anything otherwise is a blatant oversight.


 

 

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Hardwaterman Said:  a person who works for or was a volunteer at the shelter in Minot who agrees with the measure did what people do.

Is it common practice to use HSUS resources for citizens who work for or volunteer for a shelter to “help get the fair chase initiative up to the voters”?


The same volunteer also helped with the horse slaughter ban. She also went to Katrina to help with homeless animals.  David Pauli, Regional HSUS Director, was an organizer for Katrina.  Remember David Pauli is the same man that met with Roger Kaseman and blogged about it.  Janine Jacobs, sponsor of this measure, also was involved with Katrina.


Connect the dots. 

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