Measure 2

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Tackle Joe's picture
Tackle Joe
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For all in question of whether or not to support Measure 2.

Q. How many people actually lose there home to property tax?

A. Everyone - they just havent been forced onto the street yet because they are paying the  rent.

 


eewoniuk's picture
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Measure 2, on the track, just not the right track.  Hope it doesnt pass this year and they can come back next year with something more improved.  No need to get rid of them completely but they do need to significantly reduce them.  I have some friends PT that has almost tripled in the last few years, no specials

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Allen, I'm looking at a proposed formula restructuring to be applied after measure 2 passes. Good news, the abused Western part of the state receives "back pay" for all the trouble the east has provided for decades with tax abuse. The east is just fine as well. Projected overall budget surplus for 2013 with property tax eliminated - and replaced with "other sources" = $765 + Million. That's over 3/4 of a billion in surplus. Get on board - as stated - this isn't that difficult - it's about real home ownership. The schools are funded fully and properly as are the current replaced legal obligations. This will work. YesM2!

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eewoniuk Said:
Measure 2, on the track, just not the right track.  Hope it doesnt pass this year and they can come back next year with something more improved.  No need to get rid of them completely but they do need to significantly reduce them.  I have some friends PT that has almost tripled in the last few years, no specials

Get on board - They can't come back with anything more improved - they've tried 135+ times - it's about special interests - the only option IS elimination. See my above post. Please support M2!

eewoniuk's picture
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What happens when the oil is gone and we dont have a surplus, where will the extra money come from?

Tackle Joe Said:

eewoniuk Said:
Measure 2, on the track, just not the right track.  Hope it doesnt pass this year and they can come back next year with something more improved.  No need to get rid of them completely but they do need to significantly reduce them.  I have some friends PT that has almost tripled in the last few years, no specials

Get on board - They can't come back with anything more improved - they've tried 135+ times - it's about special interests - the only option IS elimination. See my above post. Please support M2!

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Quick question for Justin, tackle Joe and espringers. What happens if you don't pay your income tax? I am sure the government would never go after your home and kick you out on the street because it is free and clear. Obviously because you own your home it is yours and not an asset they can resale for your tax liability?

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Tackle Joe Said:
Allen, I'm looking at a proposed formula restructuring to be applied after measure 2 passes. Good news, the abused Western part of the state receives "back pay" for all the trouble the east has provided for decades with tax abuse. The east is just fine as well. 

Please post that proposed formula (or a link to it)

You can't aim a duck to death.

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fconcolor Said:
Quick question for Justin, tackle Joe and espringers. What happens if you don't pay your income tax?  

Or whatever tax/method they use to replace Property Tax.

You can't aim a duck to death.

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Can't take your home. It exempt from siezure up to a certain value.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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StevePike Said:
 

Tackle Joe Said:
Allen, I'm looking at a proposed formula restructuring to be applied after measure 2 passes. Good news, the abused Western part of the state receives "back pay" for all the trouble the east has provided for decades with tax abuse. The east is just fine as well. 

Please post that proposed formula (or a link to it)

No post available yet  - it will be public soon enough.

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StevePike Said:
 

fconcolor Said:
Quick question for Justin, tackle Joe and espringers. What happens if you don't pay your income tax?  

Or whatever tax/method they use to replace Property Tax.

Mr. Pike - there is no increase in other taxes required. Even the opponents (Ed Schafer) has stated this numerous times - including yesterday on 970 WDAY radio.

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eewoniuk Said:

What happens when the oil is gone and we dont have a surplus, where will the extra money come from?

Tackle Joe Said:

eewoniuk Said:
Measure 2, on the track, just not the right track.  Hope it doesnt pass this year and they can come back next year with something more improved.  No need to get rid of them completely but they do need to significantly reduce them.  I have some friends PT that has almost tripled in the last few years, no specials

Get on board - They can't come back with anything more improved - they've tried 135+ times - it's about special interests - the only option IS elimination. See my above post. Please support M2!

Without a property tax burden - the business climate is going to be one of the best investments in the country. New business opportunities abound. This will allow for real economic development vs. government sponsored/cronyism that cost the taxpayers via the current property tax (theft) system. The economy will be diversified so we are not so dependent on oil and gas. This is the exact same argument the anti-measure 2 supporters have been using for decades to stimulate the economy. Property Tax giveaways. However, those are limited to their 'buddies'. Now you wonder why they are against it when everyone benefits? Talk about total hypocrisy. That should say it all right there.

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Tackle Joe Said:

Are you not familiar with the new property tax increase coming? 

Source?

You can't aim a duck to death.

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I do not like to have my taxes raised anymore than any other person out there.  However, if this passes and the local governments loose this income, where are they going to get their money from?  It will be paid by us citizens one way or the other.  We will pay an outrageous amount for things like garbage removal and street repairs.  The government is not going to take a hit on this, we will end up paying for it one way or the other.  Minnesota has this and it does not work very well.  The state legislature will have to become a full-time job, instead of what it is now and anyone that needs money will have to hire the best lobbyist they can afford and wait in line for the legislature to pay out.  Schools usually get their state aid in July so that they can operate for the next school year.  I heard in Minnesota schools are promised money in July but may not receive it until March.  How are they supposed to operate.  I don't like this measure.

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Tackle Joe Said:
Without a property tax burden - the business climate is going to be one of the best investments in the country. New business opportunities abound. This will allow for real economic development vs. government sponsored/cronyism that cost the taxpayers via the current property tax (theft) system. The economy will be diversified so we are not so dependent on oil and gas. This is the exact same argument the anti-measure 2 supporters have been using for decades to stimulate the economy. Property Tax giveaways. However, those are limited to their 'buddies'. Now you wonder why they are against it when everyone benefits? Talk about total hypocrisy. That should say it all right there.

The "investment opportunities" is a concern. Not only will we lose the 16.7% of revenue from NR property owners but it is a huge incentive for out of state entities to purchase property here. 

The property tax giveaway is shifting to out of state ownership of property vs "buddies". Or maybe there is some out of state influence in this measure?  Since you won't post the formula yet, can you at least say if it includes a method of collecting revenue from NR?

You can't aim a duck to death.

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hoopscoach Said:
I do not like to have my taxes raised anymore than any other person out there.  However, if this passes and the local governments loose this income, where are they going to get their money from?  It will be paid by us citizens one way or the other.  We will pay an outrageous amount for things like garbage removal and street repairs.  The government is not going to take a hit on this, we will end up paying for it one way or the other.  Minnesota has this and it does not work very well.  The state legislature will have to become a full-time job, instead of what it is now and anyone that needs money will have to hire the best lobbyist they can afford and wait in line for the legislature to pay out.  Schools usually get their state aid in July so that they can operate for the next school year.  I heard in Minnesota schools are promised money in July but may not receive it until March.  How are they supposed to operate.  I don't like this measure


You haven't read the measure. Please read the ABC's at www.yesm2.com and corresponding information available. Watch the vid's they're great. ND is not MN. You're are spouting nothing but red-herring arguments as all the legislature is required to do is create the formula. K-12 funding is a formula. How many legislators, commissioners and the like are running around doing the "budgets" for K-12? NONE.  Why? Because there is a formula for funding all k-12. Please view the website if you are serious about the information and wanting to get the proper prospective.

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For some reason I can't quote. I am referring to tackle Joe post# 161

You are talking in so many circles you are making my head spin. Now there will be no other shift in the tax burden? Earlier on this thread you posted the language for the proposed measure where they could make up the short fall through sales tax, luxury tax, lottery, income tax.....I will look for it if you want me to find it.

What is your dog in this fight other than most north dakotans? It seems to me that most of the people that will benefit from this measure are vast land owners, nonresident land owners, or landlords who have numerous rental properties. I understand where Justin is coming from with his property rights but let's be honest here, what's the beef? How does it benefit you directly? For me it would be a difference of about $2000.

You are fooling yourself if you think there will be no tax shift if this passes. You know the only two sure things in life is death and taxes.

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StevePike Said:
 

Tackle Joe Said:
Without a property tax burden - the business climate is going to be one of the best investments in the country. New business opportunities abound. This will allow for real economic development vs. government sponsored/cronyism that cost the taxpayers via the current property tax (theft) system. The economy will be diversified so we are not so dependent on oil and gas. This is the exact same argument the anti-measure 2 supporters have been using for decades to stimulate the economy. Property Tax giveaways. However, those are limited to their 'buddies'. Now you wonder why they are against it when everyone benefits? Talk about total hypocrisy. That should say it all right there.

The "investment opportunities" is a concern. Not only will we lose the 16.7% of revenue from NR property owners but it is a huge incentive for out of state entities to purchase property here. 

The property tax giveaway is shifting to out of state ownership of property vs "buddies". Or maybe there is some out of state influence in this measure?  Since you won't post the formula yet, can you at least say if it includes a method of collecting revenue from NR?

Mr. Pike - again - the 16% means almost nothing. It's a number that the opponents use that tells us absolutely NOTHING of the supposed NR owners. It's just another "ploy" by the opponents. I'm being truthful. Again, you can't treat a NR land owner any different than a ND land owner - that's a violation of the Interstate Commerce Clause (and that's technically the only purpose of it). This measure is for, by and of the citizens of ND. There are no Walmarts, Target Corp or any other major players or "out-state" corporate raiders behind this.

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StevePike Said:
 

Tackle Joe Said:

Are you not familiar with the new property tax increase coming? 

Source?

State Tax Department - this was big news a few weeks ago - evaluations on average going up on Ag land 32% I believe - looking for source now. Plus, the Farmers home exemptions on there property is going away if the legislature has there way. See? Property Tax is nothing but a screw job?


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espringers Said:
Can't take your home. It exempt from siezure up to a certain value.
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Espringers here is the info direct from the IRS

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=108341,00.html

They can levy and take your home.

Tackle Joe. Haven't heard from you in a while. I see on your empower the tax payer they proudly boast that no state in the us has abolished property tax but England and Iceland have no property tax. Did you know that they have a vat (value added tax) of 15 and 26% respectively. So if nd abolished property tax and jumped sales tax like iceland and England did where will be all the economic growth be? I can assure you people on the red river valley would run over to Minnesota to avoid sale tax. A lot of it's but I would definitely not like to be a guinea pig here.

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fconcolor Said:
Espringers here is the info direct from the IRS

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=108341,00.html

They can levy and take your home.

Tackle Joe. Haven't heard from you in a while. I see on your empower the tax payer they proudly boast that no state in the us has abolished property tax but England and Iceland have no property tax. Did you know that they have a vat (value added tax) of 15 and 26% respectively. So if nd abolished property tax and jumped sales tax like iceland and England did where will be all the economic growth be? I can assure you people on the red river valley would run over to Minnesota to avoid sale tax. A lot of it's but I would definitely not like to be a guinea pig here.

the point - is to show property tax has been eliminated in places. England is not ND last time I checked. Nor do we currently have the welfare state England does - although the pinheads on both sides of the isle are doing their best to get it here. Please come up with a real argument.

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I went to the web site and it is as laughable as the supporters posting on here.
How much land do you have to own to pay 1000 dollars a month on taxes.
Alot of people are going to vote for this thinking they are going to save money when in the long run it is going to cost us more in the end
Local control?? i am on the township board and the board decides how to spend our budget. I dont know about the school board funds( never been involved)
the township i live in is loosing infrastructure because of a lack of funds.
How is going to give the townships more money to work with?
does anybody on here pay 1000 a month on property taxes?
I believe there is a hidden agenda to all of this
Last year every township got money from from oil revinues
our township got almost a third of our budget and we are getting more this summer. this is the first free money our twp has gotten in the 6 years i have been involved

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 Does anybody know what the "Pet Projects", or money being spent for special interest projects are?  People talk about the wasting of tax dollars on some of these projects but I have not heard what any of them are.  

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tackle joe, I will run these by you one last time one at a time and please answer themdirectly with ot the claims of "red herrings" or "strawmen".

So Joe, if this measure passes and our township board meets and votes to pave all our township roads is that now a legally imposed obligation that the state now must fund under this measure??? .

Joe if this is the case how long do you think it will take before these entities realize it, the oil and gas revenues are gone and taxes of some sort have to be raised because the state MUST fully and properly fund these legally imposed obligaions?

Where are the checks and balances in the wording of this measure?

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riverview Said:
I went to the web site and it is as laughable as the supporters posting on here.
How much land do you have to own to pay 1000 dollars a month on taxes.
Alot of people are going to vote for this thinking they are going to save money when in the long run it is going to cost us more in the end
Local control?? i am on the township board and the board decides how to spend our budget. I dont know about the school board funds( never been involved)
the township i live in is loosing infrastructure because of a lack of funds.
How is going to give the townships more money to work with?
does anybody on here pay 1000 a month on property taxes?
I believe there is a hidden agenda to all of this
Last year every township got money from from oil revinues
our township got almost a third of our budget and we are getting more this summer. this is the first free money our twp has gotten in the 6 years i have been involved

What's laughable exactly? Do tell. Owning your property is laughable? The current bill at my residence for a very modest twin home is almost $3000.00. It ends June 12. Do the math my good sir. That's roughly $3000.00 per year for the rest of my life - and that is just being kind and not adding to the actual increase i would have seen in the future - as that number will most surely rise. In just 10 years - that's $30,000.00 I have. If I want to improve my property with my hard earned money - to increase it's value and improve my life - I won't get penalized on top of the investment money I've already put in. Special interests - you need to ask what special interests? Ever heard of economic development corps? Ever hear of TIF, Renasance Zones, Abatements, PT Forgiveness, Tax Exempt? You're really a township commissioner?
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Tackle Joe Said:
Mr. Pike - again - the 16% means almost nothing. It's a number that the opponents use that tells us absolutely NOTHING of the supposed NR owners. It's just another "ploy" by the opponents. I'm being truthful. Again, you can't treat a NR land owner any different than a ND land owner - that's a violation of the Interstate Commerce Clause (and that's technically the only purpose of it). This measure is for, by and of the citizens of ND. There are no Walmarts, Target Corp or any other major players or "out-state" corporate raiders behind this.

The 16.7% means $126.8 million, I don't think of that as "almost nothing". If this measure passes, that percentage will likely increase. I am not sure what else you want to know about them that is relevant.

And since you cannot treat a NR land owner different than a local landowner, there is no method to have them also pay for the benefits they receive, correct? They reap 
the benefits off the backs of ND citizens. 

You can't aim a duck to death.

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Joe, What has not been addressed as I'v seen is while currently all the entities have the ability to levy mills or property taxes to fund what they need for the portion of the legally imposed obligationsunder a formula set within the state statutes that they now regulate, do ANY of them have the power to impose the various revenue generating methods specifically defined in this measure that MUST repalce the property tax? .

If not how will they replace the ability to generate funds as they currently have up to an amount allowed as they have under the current system?

In other words what revenue sources can say a soil conservation district or township impose to generate this portion that can no longer be generated tied to property?

Yes there is a formula developed by the state legislature and yes there are legally imposed obligtions defined in the NDCC

But it is the portion of thisformula that is currently controled by the local entity under this measure that many beleive will be lost to the state legislature as well under the wording of this measure

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Joe if his measure passes, how will the legislaure determine that the funding requests each of these entities are submitting are ONLY for legally imposed obligaions without examining each and every one of these proposals?

How will this be accomplished under our current legislative time frame that is set by law in our constitution of no more than 80 days every biennium?

Joe how will the legislture implement the checks and balances needed in approving roughly 2700 different enities budget proposals as well as dealing with every other legislative responsibility in 80 days?

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Tackle Joe Said:

In just 10 years - that's $30,000.00 I have. 

Only if you are not a ND resident. If you are a ND resident, you will be paying that money, or a portion of it, in other way (via a formula to be figured out later by those same people who aren't trusted enough to budget spending our money).

Or does your proposed formula you discussed earlier add no additional burden to ND residents? If so, I am very interested in seeing it.

You can't aim a duck to death.

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