Measure #3

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Fritz the Cat's picture
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Plainsman Said:
gst your just spinning in circles again.  You answer peoples question with other questions rather than real life situations.  We don't buy your line.  We think your simply so narrow agricultural minded that anything to your perceived benefit has to be agreed on by everyone else.  We don't believe it, we don't buy it, we don't want it.  Do your really believe you have brought up anything that would really negate all the problems we can see with this extremely ,purposely poorly worded measure.  The people who wrote this are not stupid.  They wrote it very nebulous on purpose.  Why?  I can only surmise that it was to get by with some very destructive practices that society would not accept, and they/you/NDFB want to make an end run on their fellow citizens.  

Who defines what constitutes very destructive practices? Bruce, would you like to see it handled at the legislature or always a free for all in the media. Part of the main stream media equation is that negatives and crisis attract bigger ratings than positives. When agricultures oppondents do not have law and science on their side they pound the table with emotion. They don't want to wage these debates in a formal setting such as the legislature. They want it to be an issue of public opinion, and they continue to be good at shaping public opinion when they have all that out of state money at their disposal.

Bruce you like to reference the Evironmental Working Group from time to time to bash agriculture. So what is the EWG?

  http://www.undueinfluence.com/ewg.htm

Projects:
Self-description: EWG has three programs: Toxics & Human Health, Sustainable Agriculture and Natural Resources. Each program uses the power of information--including government-funded data and independent lab results--to make the case for stronger policies that protect the environment and human health.
The Environmental Working Group (EWG), founded in 1993, fills a niche in the environmental community by focusing its unique strategy on toxics, agriculture and western lands issues. Our effective advocacy efforts are bolstered by extensive web databases and a 500,000-person email list, which have become major forces in online information distribution. EWG is a national organization with headquarters in Washington, DC, and offices in Oakland, CA and Ames, Iowa.

Actual: EWG, long an opponent of industrial agriculture and advocate for organic farming, uses huge foundation grants to spread anti-industry messages in an attempt to shape public opinion against corporations and capitalism.  In 1992, EWG formed the Clearinghouse for Environmental Advocacy and Research (CLEAR) to smear and destroy the wise use movement that supports the free market system.

Hey Bruce, why don't you go to web link provided and read the whole thing. These people have enough money to challenge everything.

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iluvswnd Said:
 

mauserG33-40 Said:

Plainsman Said:
.  We don't buy your line.  We think your simply so narrow agricultural minded that anything to your perceived benefit has to be agreed on by everyone else.  We don't believe it, we don't buy it, we don't want it.  .  

Who is we?  You and the rest of tree hugers in Jamestown?  Who is we? You now are speaking for everyone?

Swing your HSUS  purse at the NDFB,   Recycler  

"they/you/NDFB want to make an end run on their fellow citizens."  

Who is they,part of we?       Bruce you couldn't carry gst's dirty socks but never give up a chance to bash him.    Bruce you are jelous.

You speak of truth, did you forge you wife S.......... name of the firsr HFH measure?

Mauser, we're trying to debate a North Dakota constitutional amendment here. If you have any useful information regarding the topic at hand please feel free to hop in. If you just wanted to come on here and attack Plainsman for apparently attacking gst then I respectfully ask you to refrain from posting on this thread.

I will be happy to do that,and then while you are at it ask Plainsman to do the same with his personal crap.his haterd of NDFB,landoners,and gst.    Thank You. 

 

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 Fritz,

ad hominem

Stick to the Measure and leave the personal attacks out. 

J

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 Plainsman, 

Mauser asked me to tell you that you need to leave the personal attacks out and stick to the measure too.

Thanks

J

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Howdy folks.  I've been busy working all day, but thought I would check in again to see what folks are saying.  Looks like a lot of arguing in circles.  Not very useful.  One of the items that caught my eye was a claim that people aren't including sources of information.  So I thought I would offer a few sources for you.  Especially you iluvswnd, since you were attacking gst for not including sources.  The first link I am providing highlights my earlier claim that a Swiss (not Swedish, SWISS) cage ban has had a huge impact on egg prices in that country.  Here is the link to a story from Egg Industry magazine:

http://www.wattagnet.com/What_can_US_egg_producers_learn_from_Swiss_cage_ban_.html

When you print out the full article, it indicates a "retail shell egg price per dozen" in Switzerland of $8.39, and a corresponding U.S. price of $1.63 per dozen.  The more striking fact is that thanks to the cage ban, the Swiss are only able to produce enough eggs for 50% of that country's population.  Thanks to HSUS and Proposition 2 in California, the exact same thing will happen to that state starting on January 1, 2015.  They'll have to turn to Mexico for their eggs.

HSUS spent over $10 million on the ad campaign for Proposition 2 passage in California.  So for those of you claiming HSUS cannot and will not cause harm to meat production/consumption in our country...you are incredibly ignorant.  Watch what happens in California over the next few years!  I'm voting YES on Measure 3 to keep HSUS from doing the same thing to us in North Dakota.

Here is another link to a study from Promar International in regard to the, "Impacts of Banning Cage Egg Production in the United States."  What I said about California above can be confirmed on pages 17-18 of this study.  The study shows that cage-free eggs will cost an estimated 70% more for Californians, and cage-free eggs are 3-5% smaller than eggs from caged systems.  Here is the link:

http://www.unitedegg.org/information/pdf/Promar_Study.pdf

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Farmboy Jeff Said:
Howdy folks.  I've been busy working all day, but thought I would check in again to see what folks are saying.  Looks like a lot of arguing in circles.  Not very useful.  One of the items that caught my eye was a claim that people aren't including sources of information.  So I thought I would offer a few sources for you.  Especially you iluvswnd, since you were attacking gst for not including sources.  The first link I am providing highlights my earlier claim that a Swiss (not Swedish, SWISS) cage ban has had a huge impact on egg prices in that country.  Here is the link to a story from Egg Industry magazine:

http://www.wattagnet.com/What_can_US_egg_producers_learn_from_Swiss_cage_ban_.html

When you print out the full article, it indicates a "retail shell egg price per dozen" in Switzerland of $8.39, and a corresponding U.S. price of $1.63 per dozen.  The more striking fact is that thanks to the cage ban, the Swiss are only able to produce enough eggs for 50% of that country's population.  Thanks to HSUS and Proposition 2 in California, the exact same thing will happen to that state starting on January 1, 2015.  They'll have to turn to Mexico for their eggs.

HSUS spent over $10 million on the ad campaign for Proposition 2 passage in California.  So for those of you claiming HSUS cannot and will not cause harm to meat production/consumption in our country...you are incredibly ignorant.  Watch what happens in California over the next few years!  I'm voting YES on Measure 3 to keep HSUS from doing the same thing to us in North Dakota.

Here is another link to a study from Promar International in regard to the, "Impacts of Banning Cage Egg Production in the United States."  What I said about California above can be confirmed on pages 17-18 of this study.  The study shows that cage-free eggs will cost an estimated 70% more for Californians, and cage-free eggs are 3-5% smaller than eggs from caged systems.  Here is the link:

http://www.unitedegg.org/information/pdf/Promar_Study.pdf

Jeff, thanks for the helpful info about eggs.

Any information regarding M3 you would like to share?

J

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Farmboy Jeff Said:
Howdy folks.  I've been busy working all day, but thought I would check in again to see what folks are saying.  Looks like a lot of arguing in circles.  Not very useful.  One of the items that caught my eye was a claim that people aren't including sources of information.  So I thought I would offer a few sources for you.  Especially you iluvswnd, since you were attacking gst for not including sources.  The first link I am providing highlights my earlier claim that a Swiss (not Swedish, SWISS) cage ban has had a huge impact on egg prices in that country.  Here is the link to a story from Egg Industry magazine:

http://www.wattagnet.com/What_can_US_egg_producers_learn_from_Swiss_cage_ban_.html

I should note, however, you left his sentence from the article out of your comments:

Mettler said that restrictions on grain imports into Switzerland result in a feed cost double that of the EU.

I am NOT supporting the ban and I don't support HSUS or PETA, but you aren't being totally honest with your comments and you guys are using a red herring to push M3... I think your arguments are fine in regards to M5 but that isn't what we're talking about. 

Thanks for the links though.

J

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Hey there iluvswnd.  Yes sir.  If you can read, try going back to my earlier posts, along with the one I just posted.  If you can't figure it out from there, I'll be glad to buy a box of crayons in order to bring it down to your level.

Here is the most simple explanation I can provide:

(1) HSUS, pro-vegan/vegetarian group with $150 million annual budget starts impacting ballot measures in Colorado, Ohio, Arizona, California and beyond over the past several years.  The approach of HSUS is to attack farming and ranching PRACTICES.  They specifically attack a variety of different practices, such as use of laying hen cages, farrowing crates, etc.

(2) Several states start failing because they find themselves on the defensive.  California passes Proposition 2, for example, which will drastically harm the egg industry in that state, which will in turn, drive up egg costs considerably.  HSUS spends over $10 million in California to get Prop. 2 to pass, as it is the goal of this organization to, "abolish all animal agriculture."  (quote is from J.P. Goodwin, HSUS Grassroots Coordinator - this gentleman formerly served as the Executive Director of the Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade)

(3) A group of volunteers from North Dakota wants to be proactive in keeping HSUS out of its state, so it forms a ballot measure committee.  It drafts language with insight and advice from reputable legal sources, based in part on the failures from other states.  Then, it gathers over 32,000 signatures to get the measure on the ballot.

(4) And that brings us to today.  The measure will be voted on in November, and I believe it will pass.  I don't say this with any sense of arrogance or assumption.  I say this because of the thousands of people I was able to visit with as a petition carrier over the past year.  I spent 9 weekends straight this past summer at community events (and another 10-15 weekends prior to that) gathering signatures, so I feel like I have a pretty good sense of what people think about this measure.   And the ironic thing is...in my estimation, approximately 98% of the people I talked to didn't ask ANY of the questions the small number of opponents on this site are asking.  Don't get me wrong, I think a debate is healthy and I realize some people just will not vote for this measure, but I was happy to answer questions as I gathered signatures.  But when you mention HSUS and PETA, and you explain the importance of agriculture to the North Dakota economy...people were reaching for a pen and generally had things to say about PETA and HSUS that I cannot repeat on this site.  And, they also were preaching to me about the importance of a vibrant agriculture industry in our state and country, realizing how important this is to national security. 

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Farmboy Jeff Said:
Hey there iluvswnd.  Yes sir.  If you can read, try going back to my earlier posts, along with the one I just posted.  If you can't figure it out from there, I'll be glad to buy a box of crayons in order to bring it down to your level.

Here is the most simple explanation I can provide:

(1) HSUS, pro-vegan/vegetarian group with $150 million annual budget starts impacting ballot measures in Colorado, Ohio, Arizona, California and beyond over the past several years.  The approach of HSUS is to attack farming and ranching PRACTICES.  They specifically attack a variety of different practices, such as use of laying hen cages, farrowing crates, etc.

(2) Several states start failing because they find themselves on the defensive.  California passes Proposition 2, for example, which will drastically harm the egg industry in that state, which will in turn, drive up egg costs considerably.  HSUS spends over $10 million in California to get Prop. 2 to pass, as it is the goal of this organization to, "abolish all animal agriculture."  (quote is from J.P. Goodwin, HSUS Grassroots Coordinator - this gentleman formerly served as the Executive Director of the Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade)

(3) A group of volunteers from North Dakota wants to be proactive in keeping HSUS out of its state, so it forms a ballot measure committee.  It drafts language with insight and advice from reputable legal sources, based in part on the failures from other states.  Then, it gathers over 32,000 signatures to get the measure on the ballot.

(4) And that brings us to today.  The measure will be voted on in November, and I believe it will pass.  I don't say this with any sense of arrogance or assumption.  I say this because of the thousands of people I was able to visit with as a petition carrier over the past year.  I spent 9 weekends straight this past summer at community events (and another 10-15 weekends prior to that) gathering signatures, so I feel like I have a pretty good sense of what people think about this measure.   And the ironic thing is...in my estimation, approximately 98% of the people I talked to didn't ask ANY of the questions the small number of opponents on this site are asking.  Don't get me wrong, I think a debate is healthy and I realize some people just will not vote for this measure, but I was happy to answer questions as I gathered signatures.  But when you mention HSUS and PETA, and you explain the importance of agriculture to the North Dakota economy...people were reaching for a pen and generally had things to say about PETA and HSUS that I cannot repeat on this site.  And, they also were preaching to me about the importance of a vibrant agriculture industry in our state and country, realizing how important this is to national security. 

I completely understand your train of thought and I commend you for your intent. I simply disagree that what you say is the whole intent of this constitutional measure. I also believe that if the intent was to keep HSUS and PETA from pushing their agendas in ND a better measure could have been crafted. 

I highly doubt that your committee would have put forth this measure without having a law firm give an opinion on it's consequences in relation to our existing laws and regulations and what effect it will have for future regulation. If this measure won't do what I, and others on hear, fear it might do and you can show this opinion stating otherwise I would be glad to be enlightened. 

J

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I actually left out several sentences iluvswnd.  You see, I left a link to each site so people could go read it on their own.  I wasn't sure if people would want me to post all 36 pages of that study.  I'm so sorry!

Read on, and you will learn that efforts by HSUS to ban the use of laying hen cages have a track record of causing egg prices to go up substantially.  You will also learn that laying hens were raised in the U.S. in the 40's-70's cage-free, and these animals had much higher death losses because of bacterial diseases from standing/walking in/eating their own feces.  Land-Grant University research proved that raised cages would be more comfortable and healthy for the laying hens.  And when the switch to cages happened, production went up and egg prices dropped.  HSUS is reversing this trend for its own selfish agenda...to end meat consumption.

If it makes you feel good, vote no on Measure 3.  It will be a vote for HSUS and PETA.  I respect your decision to embrace the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle and movement.

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Deer hunting and politics make men act like spoiled kids...

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Farmboy Jeff Said:
I actually left out several sentences iluvswnd.  You see, I left a link to each site so people could go read it on their own.  I wasn't sure if people would want me to post all 36 pages of that study.  I'm so sorry!

Read on, and you will learn that efforts by HSUS to ban the use of laying hen cages have a track record of causing egg prices to go up substantially.  You will also learn that laying hens were raised in the U.S. in the 40's-70's cage-free, and these animals had much higher death losses because of bacterial diseases from standing/walking in/eating their own feces.  Land-Grant University research proved that raised cages would be more comfortable and healthy for the laying hens.  And when the switch to cages happened, production went up and egg prices dropped.  HSUS is reversing this trend for its own selfish agenda...to end meat consumption.

If it makes you feel good, vote no on Measure 3.  It will be a vote for HSUS and PETA.  I respect your decision to embrace the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle and movement.

Wow, more red-herring....

Attacking me using a similar tactic as you used to get people to sign your petition I see.

"If you don't support this measure then you support PETA and HSUS"

Give me a damn break. 

J

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iluvswnd Said:
 Plainsman, 

Mauser asked me to tell you that you need to leave the personal attacks out and stick to the measure too.

Thanks

Actually I have been waiting for that.  Good idea.

 Bruce, would you like to see it handled at the legislature or always a free for all in the media.
Neither, but I suppose one has to go with legislature or news.  News isn't always a free for all or emotion.  Our national media is a disgrace, but here in North Dakota we are fortunate to have not degraded that far.
I think our legislature often ignores science.  I think they often make decisions on who it benefits even at the cost of others.  Typical politicians I guess.  Certainly no more immune to the emotion than the average citizen. 
In one of these threads you had a good idea about tightening up the requirements for petitions, but they should not be so tight as to hinder the public from using a measure process when our legislature is to bull headed to listen to the wishes of the people.  I fear that's what those who think they have our legislature in their pocket want. 
Fritz the only reason I often go to the EWG group is because they have data on farm income derived from the tax payer.  Often we see people complain about one group of society only to learn they get even more money than the group they are complaining about.  So you see it makes no difference who they are or who supports them.  It's only important that their data is correct. 
What this all boils down to is trust.  Do we trust all farmers and ranchers to consider their neighbors.  All being the important part of that last sentence.  I don't know anyone who could truthfully answer that in the affirmative.  So it's to much to ask for in my opinion.
I think all aspects of measure three have been discussed.  I don't think anyone from either side is going to be convinced to change their mind.  That's when the danger of this going personal comes about.  In all reality were just beating a dead horse now.
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Enslow Said:
Deer hunting and politics make men act like spoiled kids...

I didn't know deer hunting was a year round thing?

 

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iluvswnd,

You are making such outrageous accusations, that common sense tells me you must be a PETA kinda guy.

How do you know what "tactics" I used in gathering signatures?  The fact is, I didn't have to say much except, "will you sign my petition to add these 2 sentences to our state constitution?"  Common sense prevailed in most people from there.
 
No tactics here.  I shoot straight kind sir.

Lighten up a little and laugh.  Debating issues can be fun, even if you disagree!  :)

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Plainsman Said:


Fritz the only reason I often go to the EWG group is because they have data on farm income derived from the tax payer. 

Oh yea Bruce Thats like saying you just stopped off at the whore house for a pack of gum.    .

 

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Farmboy Jeff Said:
iluvswnd,

You are making such outrageous accusations, that common sense tells me you must be a PETA kinda guy.

How do you know what "tactics" I used in gathering signatures?  The fact is, I didn't have to say much except, "will you sign my petition to add these 2 sentences to our state constitution?"  Common sense prevailed in most people from there.
 
No tactics here.  I shoot straight kind sir.

Lighten up a little and laugh.  Debating issues can be fun, even if you disagree!  :)

Farmboy Jeff Said:
Hey there iluvswnd....

(4) And that brings us to today.  The measure will be voted on in November, and I believe it will pass.  I don't say this with any sense of arrogance or assumption.  I say this because of the thousands of people I was able to visit with as a petition carrier over the past year.  I spent 9 weekends straight this past summer at community events (and another 10-15 weekends prior to that) gathering signatures, so I feel like I have a pretty good sense of what people think about this measure.   And the ironic thing is...in my estimation, approximately 98% of the people I talked to didn't ask ANY of the questions the small number of opponents on this site are asking.  Don't get me wrong, I think a debate is healthy and I realize some people just will not vote for this measure, but I was happy to answer questions as I gathered signatures.  But when you mention HSUS and PETA, and you explain the importance of agriculture to the North Dakota economy...people were reaching for a pen and generally had things to say about PETA and HSUS that I cannot repeat on this site.  And, they also were preaching to me about the importance of a vibrant agriculture industry in our state and country, realizing how important this is to national security. 

Only know the "tactics" that you mentioned. 

J

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Farmboy Jeff Said:
iluvswnd,

You are making such outrageous accusations, that common sense tells me you must be a PETA kinda guy.

Did your common sense also tell you that it was a good idea to come on an outdoorsmen's website and accuse people of being "PETA guys?"

I spend plenty of time outdoors hunting, fishing, farming, and ranching. You joined this website yesterday to push your agenda.

Also, any info from the committee on whether or not they had a law firm give an opinion on the wording of the measure? "Common sense" tells me the might even have hired some attorneys to help draft the language.

J

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Interesting that both 3 and 5 will probably pass.

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gst Said:

iluvswnd Said:
 
I worry that a large part of our state is uninformed or misinformed on the measures they will be voting on. I think it would be real interesting to poll people and ask them if they could name the 5 measures on the ballot this November, I bet more people could name the two that got removed...

I only want what you want, for people to make an educated decision on their vote. 

I wouldn't give the media too much credit either...

I agree whole heartedly with you on the fact most people do not take the time to inform themselves enough on what they are ask to vote on.. 

I really do beleive outside of a few discussions most of us would agree on more thanwe disagree on. 

And I do appreciate a civil discussion without personal crap. Thanks.

Even if people wanted to know more about these measures, they would probably look to nd.gov for some info. But is this the best they have to explain the measures?
https://vip.sos.nd.gov/BallotMeasurePortal.aspx

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iluvswnd Said:
 Fritz,

ad hominem

Stick to the Measure and leave the personal attacks out. 

What in the hell!!!! Did you even look at the web link I provided??????

http://www.undueinfluence.com/ewg.htm

There are more orgs out there other than HSUS and PETA that like to spread anti-ag propaganda and messages to an unsuspecting audience.

Go back and look at the top Foundations that give money to activists. You will notice the Joyce Foundation. They also give millions to anti second amendment orgs causing many problems for sportsmen.

What is even more interesting about the Chicago based Joyce Foundation is that Barak Obama was one of their board of directors.

iluvswnd, what's out there is way bigger than we can comprehend. The states need to defend themselves. 

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Fritz the Cat Said:

What in the hell!!!! Did you even look at the web link I provided??????

http://www.undueinfluence.com/ewg.htm

There are more orgs out there other than HSUS and PETA that like to spread anti-ag propaganda and messages to an unsuspecting audience.

Go back and look at the top Foundations that give money to activists. You will notice the Joyce Foundation. They also give millions to anti second amendment orgs causing many problems for sportsmen.

What is even more interesting about the Chicago based Joyce Foundation is that Barak Obama was one of their board of directors.

iluvswnd, what's out there is way bigger than we can comprehend. The states need to defend themselves. 

Honestly, I didn't read it until now. I'm not really all that concerned to be honest with you. I'm confident in our current right to farm doctrine.

J

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 Iluvs,

You are wrong (once again) about why I came on the fishing buddy site only recently.  I came on because there was so much false information being spewed by the 3-4 opposition people on the site, and since I have worked so hard to encourage a YES vote on Measure 3, I decided to share the facts with the site, rather than read all of the misinformation.  Your "tactics" comment makes no sense sir, so I'm not sure what you mean by tactics I was using with petition gathering?  How can you comment on something you didn't personally witness?  Did you sign my petition?  If so, do you remember how I explained the ballot measure to you?

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BringingTheRain Said:
Interesting that both 3 and 5 will probably pass.

Boo!

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain

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I just embolded your previous comments, I didn't know it was confusing to follow your own words. 

You say that all you did was "ask people if they will sign your petition to add two sentences to the constitution" when previously you had stated that you would just mention HSUS and PETA and they would be grabbing for the pen. 

Still no response on the lawyers interpretation of the language? I'm really curious to find out what their opinion is after they helped draft the language just so. I'm guessing a few of you didn't scribble a few sentences with "abridged" on the back of a bar napkin. 

I ask because you say I'm spewing information and you're stating facts. I guess we're all just giving our opinions until someone shows us an actual legal interpretation. Would you care to ask the committee for their lawyers opinion? Or if you're on the committee maybe you could get it for us?

Farmboy Jeff Said:
 Iluvs,

You are wrong (once again) about why I came on the fishing buddy site only recently.  I came on because there was so much false information being spewed by the 3-4 opposition people on the site, and since I have worked so hard to encourage a YES vote on Measure 3, I decided to share the facts with the site, rather than read all of the misinformation.  Your "tactics" comment makes no sense sir, so I'm not sure what you mean by tactics I was using with petition gathering?  How can you comment on something you didn't personally witness?  Did you sign my petition?  If so, do you remember how I explained the ballot measure to you?

J

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iluvswnd, Just got back from the Minot meeting on measure 5. I wish you could have been there in attendance to hear a very well laid out step by step explaination of how HSUS is engaging in furthering their agendas in states like ND thru the ballot measure process now as measure 5.

You are truly being either disingenuous or very poorly informed if you wish to claim concerns over what is currently happening in ND with measure 5 are nothing more than "red herrings".

 
I do not know how to put it more directly or politely.

Just as you have suggested people are indeed uninfromed, from your comments dismissing the inclusion of Measure 5 in this discussion as a "red herring" you are showing your very own degree of being uninformed.

Regardless of what you may "beleive",  in conversations held at the very origin of this measure with the sponsors prior to it even being submitted to the SOS office the intent was made very clear to the orgs they approached to gain support from.

I was on the board of directors of one of these orgs.  and asked some very pointed questions and I can honestly tell you that myself and the 27 other people in the room voted to support this measure because we ALL beleived unanimously the intent is indeed to prevent groups like HSUS from using the ballot initiative process to ban certain animal agriculture practices.

I talked with our three representatives from district 6 tonite and not one of them beleived this measure will prevent them from creating necessary laws to regulate agriculture.

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Joined: 3/12/09

iluvswnd Said:
I just embolded your previous comments, I didn't know it was confusing to follow your own words. 

You say that all you did was "ask people if they will sign your petition to add two sentences to the constitution" when previously you had stated that you would just mention HSUS and PETA and they would be grabbing for the pen. 

Still no response on the lawyers interpretation of the language? I'm really curious to find out what their opinion is after they helped draft the language just so. I'm guessing a few of you didn't scribble a few sentences with "abridged" on the back of a bar napkin. 

I ask because you say I'm spewing information and you're stating facts. I guess we're all just giving our opinions until someone shows us an actual legal interpretation. Would you care to ask the committee for their lawyers opinion? Or if you're on the committee maybe you could get it for us?

iluvswnd, I have stated that if you can prove beyond opinions this measures intent and consequence will be to prevent the regulation of agriculture by the state legislature I would publically on this site not support it. So why not provide the very same legal documentation you are asking for to support your very specific claims?

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I'm voting NO on M5. Thought I mentioned that already. Even have a sign in my yard to try and get some awareness 

gst Said:
iluvswnd, Just got back from the Minot meeting on measure 5. I wish you could have been there in attendance to hear a very well laid out step by step explaination of how HSUS is engaging in furthering their agendas in states like ND thru the ballot measure process now as measure 5.

You are truly being either disingenuous or very poorly informed if you wish to claim concerns over what is currently happening in ND with measure 5 are nothing more than "red herrings".

 
I do not know how to put it more directly or politely.

Just as you have suggested people are indeed uninfromed, from your comments dismissing the inclusion of Measure 5 in this discussion as a "red herring" you are showing your very own degree of being uninformed.

Regardless of what you may "beleive",  in conversations held at the very origin of this measure with the sponsors prior to it even being submitted to the SOS office the intent was made very clear to the orgs they approached to gain support from.

I was on the board of directors of one of these orgs.  and asked some very pointed questions and I can honestly tell you that myself and the 27 other people in the room voted to support this measure because we ALL beleived unanimously the intent is indeed to prevent groups like HSUS from using the ballot initiative process to ban certain animal agriculture practices.

I talked with our three representatives from district 6 tonite and not one of them beleived this measure will prevent them from creating necessary laws to regulate agriculture.

J

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 Gst, you're trying to shift the burden of proof to me. I don't have to prove your claims, you do. 

I have, however, sent a request to one of my local representatives so they can ask the AG for an opinion. We lowly citizens cannot request an attorney general opinion but state legislature can. Perhaps if you talked to your representatives and they also made a request we might get an opinion before Election Day. 

Even easier would be if farmboy Jeff stepped up. 


gst Said:

iluvswnd Said:
I just embolded your previous comments, I didn't know it was confusing to follow your own words. 

You say that all you did was "ask people if they will sign your petition to add two sentences to the constitution" when previously you had stated that you would just mention HSUS and PETA and they would be grabbing for the pen. 

Still no response on the lawyers interpretation of the language? I'm really curious to find out what their opinion is after they helped draft the language just so. I'm guessing a few of you didn't scribble a few sentences with "abridged" on the back of a bar napkin. 

I ask because you say I'm spewing information and you're stating facts. I guess we're all just giving our opinions until someone shows us an actual legal interpretation. Would you care to ask the committee for their lawyers opinion? Or if you're on the committee maybe you could get it for us?

iluvswnd, I have stated that if you can prove beyond opinions this measures intent and consequence will be to prevent the regulation of agriculture by the state legislature I would publically on this site not support it. So why not provide the very same legal documentation you are asking for to support your very specific claims?

J

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gst
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Joined: 3/12/09

iluvswnd Said:
 Gst, you're trying to shift the burden of proof to me. I don't have to prove your claims, you do. 

I have, however, sent a request to one of my local representatives so they can ask the AG for an opinion. We lowly citizens cannot request an attorney general opinion but state legislature can. Perhaps if you talked to your representatives and they also made a request we might get an opinion before Election Day. 

Even easier would be if farmboy Jeff stepped up. 


gst Said:

iluvswnd Said:
I just embolded your previous comments, I didn't know it was confusing to follow your own words. 

You say that all you did was "ask people if they will sign your petition to add two sentences to the constitution" when previously you had stated that you would just mention HSUS and PETA and they would be grabbing for the pen. 

Still no response on the lawyers interpretation of the language? I'm really curious to find out what their opinion is after they helped draft the language just so. I'm guessing a few of you didn't scribble a few sentences with "abridged" on the back of a bar napkin. 

I ask because you say I'm spewing information and you're stating facts. I guess we're all just giving our opinions until someone shows us an actual legal interpretation. Would you care to ask the committee for their lawyers opinion? Or if you're on the committee maybe you could get it for us?

iluvswnd, I have stated that if you can prove beyond opinions this measures intent and consequence will be to prevent the regulation of agriculture by the state legislature I would publically on this site not support it. So why not provide the very same legal documentation you are asking for to support your very specific claims?

hey, I'm not the one claiming this measure will prevent the legislature from regulating agriculture.

I'm not the one making claims legislators themselves are not making.

I'm not the one making claims no other media source is supporting.

So exactly who's claims should be proven???

It is interesting you have asked your representative to contact the AG's office. Quite awhile back on Nodak I sugested that be done and it ignited quite the discussion with several other claims made by people opposing this measure so indeed I am interested to hear what transpires.

Please keep us informed.

I am wondering though, would you beleive anything Jeff or NDFB were to post???

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