Netflix Documentary (s)

I am an avid Netflix Documentary watcher, and I saw one lastnight called Religulious by Bill Maher. I know religion is a touchy subject, but hoyl smokes, does this ever bring some light to a very taboo topic. I recommend watching it.

Has anyone seen any other good ones? Street Thief is another really good one!

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Meatball Said:
    Lets face it, there are two different people on this world,
There is faithful man who believe in a omnipotent God,
There is the science man who believe in the fishmonkeyman,
We stand up for what we believe, and will teach are children are beliefs,
   Why is their  evolution taught in our schools, and the bible and prayer are banned, in most peoples mind they are both theories, either teach them both or nothing
I think it's because evolution is generally accepted as fact and theory. Creation, like God, is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. The bible isn't banned if it is used as literature and prayer isn't banned either. A teacher just can't make the students pray. two common misconceptions
   My 8th grade science teacher refused to teach the big boom and fishmonkeyman theory, and he was a christian, but he would not teach creation of the Bible. One could say this might be an example of where someone letting his faith get the best of him? Maybe not, maybe the guy just though all three were stupid.

I fear for this country and the direction which it is going. I am to, but not because of religion. I do think it is debatable whether or not religion has done more harm than good during the history of the world.

   If i am wrong what did I lose, beside some sunday mournings fishing, I lived my life how I believe God would be pleased, I gave up drinking and smoking, I prey and read the Bible with my girls and have a wonderful time with the people of my church. If this is wrong I dont see how changing my life for the better could be. 
  But if you are right so be it, we are all dead, doesnt matter how smart you were, but if you are Wrong!!!!!

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Plainsman Said:
 My 63 years experience has taught me that often those who think they know the most are often wrong the most often.  Sometimes I have had to learn that the hard way and eat a little humble pie.

A littlt humble pie? No-one could eat the amount you should have eaten. If you were Native American you name would have been Standing Sparrow (to full of BS to fly)

 

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BringingTheRain Said:

 

I didn't say don't believe in anything I can't prove. I don't believe in something of which there is absolutely not even remotely any reason or proof, whatsoever, to believe.

You are most certaibly free to beleive or not in anything you wish.

From your last statement, it is clear you simply do not understand faith. 

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We could debate for another 100 years and get nowhere.  I don't care o debate this anymore, but for those whose faith may have been rattled a little I want to tell you a story.
Guess where I was yesterday?  Well life is full of coincidence, or was it coincidence.  I went to the civic center in Jamestown.  A biologist from Kruger National Park in Africa was speaking.  I thought the guy may have some very interesting life stories since his father was a bush pilot for the Zulu people.  Well he was speaking on the pillars of evolution and why science now tells us Darwin's theory doesn't work.  Coincidence?

Anyway, he keeps up more with the literature than I do since I am retired.  If some of you are not familiar Darwin based his theory on finches.  Every island had finches specific to that island.  The theory was they were isolated and as they adapted and added to their genetic diversity they changed visibly. 

You all know a story or two that you have heard on the news about some rapist being set free because of our ability to now process genetic evidence and it turns out the guy was innocent.  I'm sure you have heard one or two stories like that.  Like that scientists have now looked at those finches.  The truth is what they call the large ground finch on one island is considered the genetic matriarch of all the finches.  The finches on other islands do not have adapted/added genetic information they have reduced information.  Just the opposite of Darwin's theory.  As we breed dogs we do not breed new information into them.  Like the finch all that genetic information is already within them. 

The guy who spoke yesterday was Mike Snavely.  He presented a half dozen or more points that debunks evolution.  He agreed that religion should not be taught in science classes because it's not science.  He also said that if they are going to teach evolution they should teach it correctly.  If you have been taught evolution in a public school in the last 30 years you have perhaps not been taught correctly.  If you magic key is a billion years it's no key at all. 

Yes, he went through the big bang and everything.  That can also be torn to shreds.  In that theory everything is moving outward as it would in an explosion.   All you have to do is ignore all the things moving in the wrong direction.   He had some nice Hubble telescope pictures and covered information I can't even remember, but I did buy the video. 

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Plainsman Said:

We could debate for another 100 years and get nowhere.  I don't care o debate this anymore, but for those whose faith may have been rattled a little I want to tell you a story.
Guess where I was yesterday?  Well life is full of coincidence, or was it coincidence.  I went to the civic center in Jamestown.  A biologist from Kruger National Park in Africa was speaking.  I thought the guy may have some very interesting life stories since his father was a bush pilot for the Zulu people.  Well he was speaking on the pillars of evolution and why science now tells us Darwin's theory doesn't work.  Coincidence?

Anyway, he keeps up more with the literature than I do since I am retired.  If some of you are not familiar Darwin based his theory on finches.  Every island had finches specific to that island.  The theory was they were isolated and as they adapted and added to their genetic diversity they changed visibly. 

You all know a story or two that you have heard on the news about some rapist being set free because of our ability to now process genetic evidence and it turns out the guy was innocent.  I'm sure you have heard one or two stories like that.  Like that scientists have now looked at those finches.  The truth is what they call the large ground finch on one island is considered the genetic matriarch of all the finches.  The finches on other islands do not have adapted/added genetic information they have reduced information.  Just the opposite of Darwin's theory.  As we breed dogs we do not breed new information into them.  Like the finch all that genetic information is already within them. 

The guy who spoke yesterday was Mike Snavely.  He presented a half dozen or more points that debunks evolution.  He agreed that religion should not be taught in science classes because it's not science.  He also said that if they are going to teach evolution they should teach it correctly.  If you have been taught evolution in a public school in the last 30 years you have perhaps not been taught correctly.  If you magic key is a billion years it's no key at all. 

Yes, he went through the big bang and everything.  That can also be torn to shreds.  In that theory everything is moving outward as it would in an explosion.   All you have to do is ignore all the things moving in the wrong direction.   He had some nice Hubble telescope pictures and covered information I can't even remember, but I did buy the video. 

Find any peer reviewed publication that states evolution is wrong and/or provides an alternative mechanism. You wont find it, plain and simple. Please, please do your own research before spouting off falsities.

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Jarudy Said:

Plainsman Said:

We could debate for another 100 years and get nowhere.  I don't care o debate this anymore, but for those whose faith may have been rattled a little I want to tell you a story.
Guess where I was yesterday?  Well life is full of coincidence, or was it coincidence.  I went to the civic center in Jamestown.  A biologist from Kruger National Park in Africa was speaking.  I thought the guy may have some very interesting life stories since his father was a bush pilot for the Zulu people.  Well he was speaking on the pillars of evolution and why science now tells us Darwin's theory doesn't work.  Coincidence?

Anyway, he keeps up more with the literature than I do since I am retired.  If some of you are not familiar Darwin based his theory on finches.  Every island had finches specific to that island.  The theory was they were isolated and as they adapted and added to their genetic diversity they changed visibly. 

You all know a story or two that you have heard on the news about some rapist being set free because of our ability to now process genetic evidence and it turns out the guy was innocent.  I'm sure you have heard one or two stories like that.  Like that scientists have now looked at those finches.  The truth is what they call the large ground finch on one island is considered the genetic matriarch of all the finches.  The finches on other islands do not have adapted/added genetic information they have reduced information.  Just the opposite of Darwin's theory.  As we breed dogs we do not breed new information into them.  Like the finch all that genetic information is already within them. 

The guy who spoke yesterday was Mike Snavely.  He presented a half dozen or more points that debunks evolution.  He agreed that religion should not be taught in science classes because it's not science.  He also said that if they are going to teach evolution they should teach it correctly.  If you have been taught evolution in a public school in the last 30 years you have perhaps not been taught correctly.  If you magic key is a billion years it's no key at all. 

Yes, he went through the big bang and everything.  That can also be torn to shreds.  In that theory everything is moving outward as it would in an explosion.   All you have to do is ignore all the things moving in the wrong direction.   He had some nice Hubble telescope pictures and covered information I can't even remember, but I did buy the video. 

Find any peer reviewed publication that states evolution is wrong and/or provides an alternative mechanism. You wont find it, plain and simple. Please, please do your own research before spouting off falsities.

You better look out Janrudy old Plainsman will be comparimg you to Mahmound Admadinejah,asking you if your turbin is ti tight,   As far as spouting off falsities he has pages of them on Nodak.

 

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jarudy there are dozens of peer reviewed.  Simply catch up on the literature.  Here is one in Molecular Biology.  Keep in mind that when your talking science and evolution that evolution really doesn't meet the test of science.  1. it's not demonstrable  2 it's not repeatable.  3 it's not observable.

This is just a fragment of it, and it got messed up in copy and past.  Sorry about that.

Descent of Mankind Theory: Disproved by Molecular Biology
by Rich Deem

Introduction

The current theory of human evolution states that modern humans evolved from more primitive A form of walking characterized by an erect stance in which the rear legs are utilized for movement.bipedal hominids. The first bipedal hominid genus that is supposedly the ancestor of modern humans is Australopithecus, which appeared in the fossil record from about 4.4 to 1 million years ago throughout eastern Africa. Australopithecus comprised a diverse group of small-brained A form of walking characterized by an erect stance in which the rear legs are utilized for movement.bipedal species that were confined to the savannas of Africa. This The second smallest classification name given for each biological species. Each genu can be comprised of one or more species.genus was supposed to have evolved into the The second smallest classification name given for each biological species. Each genu can be comprised of one or more species.genus Homo, which has been defined as bipedal primates with a brain capacity over 700 cc, having appeared in the fossil record by about 2.5 million years ago as Homo habilisin eastern Africa. According to theory, An extinct species of the genus Homo, which lived approximately 2.5 million to 1.6 million years ago.Homo habilis evolved into Homo erectus, which had a brain capacity just over 1000 cc, appearing in the fossil record from about 1.8 million to 300 thousand years ago. Homo neanderthalensis lived between 400 and 28 thousand years ago. Archaic Homo sapiens appeared 400 - 150 thousand years ago, and modern Homo sapiensfrom less than 100 thousand years ago. Contrary to the claims of many creationists, there is ample evidence for the existence of human-like species of bipedal primates. The dates and ages of these fossils are not widely disputed in scientific circles. The reality of the fossil record and the reliability of the dates of these fossils is actually instrumental in disproving the descent of man theory. If the fossil record were not as complete as it now is, the standard evolutionist argument would apply, "we just haven't found the missing link ancestor of modern humans yet."

The beginning of trouble - lack of genetic diversity among modern humans

As evolutionists studied humans and species of apes in the 1970's and 1980's, some rather surprising information was being discovered that distinguished us from apes and other primates. The maximum Fst value (a measure of variation between population groups) between human races is 0.08 (1, 2). However, among populations of chimpanzees, orangutans, and other primate species, A calculated proportion of total genetic variability attributable to the genetic differences between populations.Fst values are commonly more than 0.20. An examination of 62 common An organic compound made of amino acids arranged in a linear chain, joined together by peptide bonds between the carboxyl and amino groups of the adjacent amino acid residues.protein coding genetic Multiple places on a chromosome where specific genes or genetic markers are located, a kind of address for the gene.loci, indicates a Replacement of one nucleotide in a DNA sequence by another nucleotide or replacement of one amino acid in a protein by another amino acid.substitution rate of 0.011/The place on a chromosome where a specific gene is located, a kind of address for the gene.locus (Caucasoids versus Mongoloids), to a maximum of 0.029 (Mongoloids versus Negroids). However, in nearly all other animal species studied, including apes, usually exceed 0.05 (2). In humans, heterozygosity (the proportion of Variant forms of a gene at a particular locus, or location, on a chromosome.alleles that are polymorphic, in this case within the species) is 1.8% , whereas in apes it ranges from 2.5 in the An arboreal great ape belonging to the genus Pongo, consisting of two species, Pongo pygmaeus of Borneo and Pongo abelii, characterized by a reddish-brown coat, very long arms, and no tail.Orangutan to 3.9 in the Chimpanzee (3). An analysis of the genetics of populations of apes reveals that different population groups possess fixed novel mutations that characterize each population. In contrast, there are no novel Permanent structural alterations in DNA, consisting of either substitutions, insertions or deletions of nucleotide bases.mutations or genetic Variant forms of a gene at a particular locus, or location, on a chromosome.alleles that specifically characterize any one human race from another. More recent studies have confirmed the early work, likewise showing that human genetic diversity is far less than what one would predict from Darwinian theory. Dr. Maryellen Ruvolo (Harvard University) has noted, "It's a mystery none of us can explain." (4). Examinations of the genetic The order of nucleotides in a DNA or RNA molecule, or the order of amino acids in a protein molecule.sequences of diverse modern human populations reveals minor, if any differences (5). All of this evidence suggested a recent origin for modern humans.

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Plainsman Said:

 

....bullshit

Peer reviewed (scientific community)? Nope. Published outside of his website and in any credible scientific publication? Nope. Did you check the references and how he was using them? Nope.

Both the idiot Richard Deem and you are employing the Staw Man fallacy. Perhaps a college course of "Introduction to Critical Thinking" may be key for you.

ALSO, you claim evolution isnt demonstratable? Have you ever taken a microbiology lab? Applying pressure to a group of bacteria most definently demonstrates evolution in addition to being repeatable and observable.

You clearly state evolution isnt observable yet you meant to say macroevolution isnt observable.

Mutation Rate of Microbes (demonstratable, oberservable and repeatable):
http://www.genetics.org/content/154/3/985.short
http://aac.asm.org/content/44/7/1771.short
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/274/5290/1208.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC249691/
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/8800924/reload=0;jsessionid=e5ihiNps4OgOc7HGAWBx.2
http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/content/6/5/799.short
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0027510782901294

Guess what the best part about supporting facts is? I can do this all day yet your supposed proofs are limited to non published, childish fallacy claims.

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Time for you Bruce to cut and run.

 

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jarudy, no Plainsman didn't say what you quoted.

 

You clearly state evolution isnt observable yet you meant to say macroevolution isnt observable.

 

Your right there.  I also don't claim the car has not evolved, American I don't claim has not evolved.  Since evolve only means change it's clear many things change.  One of those things is science.

I need to find one of my books.  One of the top scientists in England said he had to go along with evolution where he worked or he would get fired.   He also said he had to go along with it or he could not get published.   Richard Deem who you evidently don't like mentioned the trouble with publishing.  It's much like trying to publish if you don't buy into global warming.

I have had microbiology, but I am guessing yours is more up to date.  Have they ever run DNA on those bacteria, and did they contain new genetic information, or did they change by elimination of some genetic information?

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I'm not sure how to edit a post, even within it's time limits.   I forgot to add this when you brought up  microevolution.

Refuting "macroevolution" using science


The evidence against evolution is mounting daily in the scientific community.  
Theories are changed daily as to the origin of the universe and life.

does "microevolution" lead to "macroevolution"?

Clarifying evolution  - 3 quotations:

"How macroevolution progressed in the past cannot be determined from the 
study of microevolutionary processes." - 
		Harold R. Booher, PhD, Origins, Icons and Illusions

"Macroevolutionary theories are not reducible (at least at the present state 
of knowledge) to microevolution... macroevolution is an autonomous field of 
study that must develop and test its own theories."  - 
		Francisco Ayala (Professor of Genetics), Reduction in Biology

Microevolution does not lead to macroevolution - it has never been observed to happen.

"We the undersigned, oppose the statement on evolution passed by the 
Professional Concerns Committee of the Faculty Senate at Northern Kentucky 
University.  Use of the term "evolution" without clarifying that it refers to 
different processes, one fact and one theory, hinders both science and 
education and promotes confusion and misunderstanding."
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It still blows me away that with evolution happening every day in front of our faces people still deny it.

its just the passing of hereditary mutated genes....a pair of critters that typically get 2' long each have a few offspring, one of those offspring gets 6' long, then a geological heaving divides a river to create another, separating that larger critter from its original range.  that 6' critter hybridizes with a similar specie or maybe it found one of its own species and its larger genes were passed along, and half their offspring takes on the "big" gene now they reproduce and 66% of their offspring are bigger than usual, now theres another mutation, a few of those offspring are darker than the others making them harder to see in the new river, less of the darker ones get eaten by predators leaving more of the darker ones to reproduce, (5 generations later) we have a 6' long completely different colored critter, now a few of this generation's offspring have slightly larger & thicker fins, hardly noniceable but just enough to give them an advantage in the swifter river currents leaving more of these thicker finned, 6' long, different colored critters to reproduce, and 10 generations later we have different colored, 6' long, critters with heavily built fins that are used to grip the rocks in the fast river current, etc etc etc etc on and on and on and onnnn, meanwhile there is still that same 2' light colored critter on the other side of that particular geological formation.

evolution doesn't always happen like a planned out blueprint, its completely random and accidental.  every specie has some hereditary differences from its parents, some of those differences are beneficial, some are not, and sometimes even the undesirable traits get passed on just because they don't hinder reproduction

In the above picture is just one example what I can see right here in North america, without a fancy lab, DNA testing, government funding, or expensive equipment etc.  these are evolutionary changes in the same group of small lizards known as skinks.  they have been divided by habitat, climate, soil types, predators, etc and through the years and generations there have been some obvious genes passed on that became dominant ones.  these lizards are different species within their own family, like a lion and a lynx.  they look virtually the same, same scale type, very similar colors and patterns, even their eyes are almost indistinguishable, yet their legs go from well built and strong in some species of skink, to weak and uselless in another, to completely missing in others.  These are changes that have happened in just a few thousand or even only a few hundred years.  Give this group a few hundred thousand or even a million and they may branch off into a group of furry flying critters or they may not change one bit.  look at crocodiles, looking the same as they have for a hundred million years.

This is just one example of thousands you can see just today without being a rocket scientist, now, if you add a 3 billion year fossil record we are still building and studying daily by thousands of researchers, scientists, skeptics, and students with hundreds of thousands of specimens that fit in between each specie showing us how many (but obviously not all) species have developed into the ones they became, used to be, or are today.  then we add genetic mapping done again by thousands of people in hundreds of labs around the globe which mostly all point in the same directions of our ancestry and where we came from its pretty impossible for me to have "faith" as some call it, in imaginary beings in the sky. 

Its hard for me when every week I am outside playing in the dirt & rocks catching snakes & bugs with a childs enthusiasm and curiosity but also with the experiences of an adult, analyzing every similarity and difference I notice, while some make sense others do not and just because I find a puzzle piece that I can't see where it fits doesn't mean the million other puzzle peices are in the wrong spot.

those of faith and religion like to find the one example or "puzzle piece" that doesn't fit or hasn't been explained and try to use that to discredit the whole picture.  well....How about one of you find a puzzle piece that does fit from your side for a change.  Not a rorschach test on a piece of toast, you bring us a freakin angel in the flesh, not some nutjob ex LSD addict who says he spoke to god in the woods with no one else around, drill a freakin hole and show me hell, don't just tell me I need faith to believe and all that science mumbo jumbo is just theories.

Stop asking me to prove, its your turn.  if there's something you're unclear of about evolution, or the geologic history of this planet, all of that information is hidden in books, your backyards, classrooms, and the internet.  all of which are free to explore.

P.S.  it would help if you type something other than "how do I disprove evolution" into the christian.com search box and try just typing "evolution" into a google, yahoo, or wikipedia search.

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multi-species-angler Said:

those of faith and religion like to find the one example or "puzzle piece" that doesn't fit or hasn't been explained and try to use that to discredit the whole picture.  well....How about one of you find a puzzle piece that does fit from your side for a change.  Not a rorschach test on a piece of toast, you bring us a freakin angel in the flesh, not some nutjob ex LSD addict who says he spoke to god in the woods with no one else around, drill a freakin hole and show me hell, don't just tell me I need faith to believe and all that science mumbo jumbo is just theories.

Stop asking me to prove, its your turn.  if there's something you're unclear of about evolution, or the geologic history of this planet, all of that information is hidden in books, your backyards, classrooms, and the internet.  all of which are free to explore.

P.S.  it would help if you type something other than "how do I disprove evolution" into the christian.com search box and try just typing "evolution" into a google, yahoo, or wikipedia search.

Multi, I have four of them. Ages 6, 13, 16 and16. If you wish to tell me they are nothing more than some organic being eloved from some premordial single cell being billions upon billions of years ago and provide reams of data of "peer reveiwed"  "theories" to back up what you claim, fine.

I simply choose to beleive I have been blessed with something more.

Not all science is "mumbo jumbo" , in fact most is not. I don;t think anyone has suggested it is. You are trying to simplify the discussion into one you can easily defend. 

Last nite I pulled a calf, no heartbeat, eyes glossed over, looked dead. It was alive when I started pulling it, but laying on the ground after it was out  it appeared to be dead. After several attempts at reviving it it's eyes regained a brightness, it's heart started beating abd it took a breath ad soon was blinking and breathing on it's own holding it'shead up.

An "easy" explaination is that not enough time had passed without oxygen to the brain to cause a shut down of all organs and by restoring the supply of oxygen the heart was able to jump start and body functions began.

Seeing a lifeless eye transform into a calf shaking its head and soon standing on wobbly legs nursing what colostrum is needed and in a couple of days jumping and bucking in the sun tends to allow a person to beleive in something more.

From your laboratory I am sure you will explain every aspect of both the birth of that calf as well as my kidsusing any number of "peer reveiwed" articles, studies, experiments and"theories".

I simply choose to beleive there is something more than what man has "discovered" involved.
 
If you can not understand that, you do not understand faith and the fact you demand "proof" simply confirms your lack of understanding.

Most people of faith do not have such a hard time accepting MANY aspects of science, why do people such as you have such a hard time accepting the one single aspect of faith?

That being there may exist something you can not "drill a hole in" and explain.

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gst Said:

BringingTheRain Said:

 

I didn't say don't believe in anything I can't prove. I don't believe in something of which there is absolutely not even remotely any reason or proof, whatsoever, to believe.

You are most certaibly free to beleive or not in anything you wish.

From your last statement, it is clear you simply do not understand faith. 

Yeah, that is pretty much the old stand by. I even understand the difference between belief and faith, but people forget that many people started out religious and with faith, but the more they looked into it, the more they started to debate it. In this case, it isn't that I lost faith, I picked up on reason. Faith when it comes to god, imo, it is more like gullibility just to be comfortable.

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Ok so why do yu feel the need to argue that there is no God? It really shouldn't matter what ayone else thinks if that's what you believe. the repitive attacks and further attempts do disprove others beliefs only indicates fear and insecurity. I have done nothing but say what if??? The things I have said can not be disproved and I will stand by them and I could care less what the rest of you think. 

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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BringingTheRain Said:

gst Said:

BringingTheRain Said:

 

I didn't say don't believe in anything I can't prove. I don't believe in something of which there is absolutely not even remotely any reason or proof, whatsoever, to believe.

You are most certaibly free to beleive or not in anything you wish.

From your last statement, it is clear you simply do not understand faith. 

Yeah, that is pretty much the old stand by. I even understand the difference between belief and faith, but people forget that many people started out religious and with faith, but the more they looked into it, the more they started to debate it. In this case, it isn't that I lost faith, I picked up on reason. Faith when it comes to god, imo, it is more like gullibility just to be comfortable.

If you do not understand faith itself is the "reason" to beleive in something greater, you do not understand faith as much perhaps as your "beleif" tells you that you do.
 

If ones faith allows one to be "comfortable" with how they live their life and at ease at the time of their death, would that alone not be "reason" to beleive? .
 

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Multi, if thats what you call  evolution, that doesnt prove a thing.
You are talking change within a species, not a species changing to a different species.
That is impossible!!!!!!
If we came from a monkey, why do we have more in common with a pig.
evolution teaches we came from the water right,  then only species we could of come from was a merman, maybe thats why we like to fish so much.
  You guys could write a book, the Merman Code,
If you think the Bible is made up, that somebody just imagine it out of thin air, there is nothing in the Bible that makes sense to most modern humans, Love your wife, love your enemies, train up your child not in wrath, dont lie, steal, murder, Its no wonder nobody believes it, It tells us who we really are, It even says dont look at other women when we are married,sodomy is an abomantion, dont get a divorce unless there is adultry.
   If I evolved from a merman, what would any of this mean to me, NOTHING, evolution is nothing but a crutch, it gives you a clear mind to do whatever you want!

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buckmaster81 Said:
Ok so why do yu feel the need to argue that there is no God? It really shouldn't matter what ayone else thinks if that's what you believe. the repitive attacks and further attempts do disprove others beliefs only indicates fear and insecurity. I have done nothing but say what if??? The things I have said can not be disproved and I will stand by them and I could care less what the rest of you think. 

I didn't realize I was attacking anyone. I'm not trying to disprove god. God is unfalsifiable.

attempts do disprove others beliefs only indicates fear and insecurity

How so? If I was scared and insecure, according to believers, wouldn't I than claim to believe in god? So that I don't go to hell.

gst Said:

BringingTheRain Said:

gst Said:

BringingTheRain Said:

 

I didn't say don't believe in anything I can't prove. I don't believe in something of which there is absolutely not even remotely any reason or proof, whatsoever, to believe.

You are most certaibly free to beleive or not in anything you wish.

From your last statement, it is clear you simply do not understand faith. 

Yeah, that is pretty much the old stand by. I even understand the difference between belief and faith, but people forget that many people started out religious and with faith, but the more they looked into it, the more they started to debate it. In this case, it isn't that I lost faith, I picked up on reason. Faith when it comes to god, imo, it is more like gullibility just to be comfortable.

If you do not understand faith itself is the "reason" to beleive in something greater, you do not understand faith as much perhaps as your "beleif" tells you that you do.
 

If ones faith allows one to be "comfortable" with how they live their life and at ease at the time of their death, would that alone not be "reason" to beleive? .
 

Just because I got over it.....the faith that we've been talking about, doesn't mean I don't understand it. You're looking for something that just isn't there. Faith can allow you to be comfortable, yet it can harm people just as easily. Faith isn't always good. Living life with reason and rational thought is more beneficial to me. It's getting clearer and clearer to me that you might not know as much about faith as you think you do.

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BrinningTheRain I enjoy many of your posts so don't take this wrong.  Have you ever noticed how people with no kids tell people with kids how to raise kids?  I don't think people who do not believe in God are qualified to tell Christians what faith is. 

From an online dictionary:  belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.  
 

I do hesitate to say that because to believe evolution you must have faith.  Believing anything that can not be proven requires faith.  As a scientist I didn't have the luxury for faith in my work it required sound reason as someone else pointed out.  However, sound reason does not make you believe evolution.  More and more scientists are beginning to doubt it.  I wish I wasn't so poor with names, but the head guy of the top British scientists (I have to try find it again, but he heads a museum) does not believe evolution.  His reason is because we have never found a transition fossil.  Millions of fossils, but no transition fossil. 

I really need to dig into this thing more.  I was talking with a fellow from Washington and he said some things are mineralizing faster than scientists thought they would.  He said they are digging nearly fully mineralized animals from the Mt St. Helens site. 

I think most science is very good and have much respect for it.  I especially respect the empirical data before the statisticians get hold of it.  I have noticed though that if you want funding you only need mention global warming.  Likewise you will tick of many if your anti evolution.  These things take time to change.  The old guys who believed it often staked their career and reputation on it which makes them not about to change their mind.  Pride gets in the way of progress more often than one cares to admit.  

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Plainsman Said:
 His reason is because we have never found a transition fossil.  Millions of fossils, but no transition fossil. 

http://www.transitionalfossils.com/ 
It is a website, but there are plenty of credible sources where this info comes from.

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Plainsman Said:
BrinningTheRain I enjoy many of your posts so don't take this wrong.  Have you ever noticed how people with no kids tell people with kids how to raise kids?  I don't think people who do not believe in God are qualified to tell Christians what faith is. 

If you really believe that do you believe with just a few word changes is also true?

"Have you ever noticed how people that are not landowners how to manage thier land?
I don't think people who do not own land are qualified to tell land owners what to do "

Plainsman Said:
.  Pride gets in the way of progress more often than one cares to admit.  

You might want to follow that advice.

 

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BringingTheRain Said:

buckmaster81 Said:
Ok so why do yu feel the need to argue that there is no God? It really shouldn't matter what ayone else thinks if that's what you believe. the repitive attacks and further attempts do disprove others beliefs only indicates fear and insecurity. I have done nothing but say what if??? The things I have said can not be disproved and I will stand by them and I could care less what the rest of you think. 

I didn't realize I was attacking anyone. I'm not trying to disprove god. God is unfalsifiable.

attempts do disprove others beliefs only indicates fear and insecurity

How so? If I was scared and insecure, according to believers, wouldn't I than claim to believe in god? So that I don't go to hell.

gst Said:

BringingTheRain Said:

gst Said:

BringingTheRain Said:

 

I didn't say don't believe in anything I can't prove. I don't believe in something of which there is absolutely not even remotely any reason or proof, whatsoever, to believe.

You are most certaibly free to beleive or not in anything you wish.

From your last statement, it is clear you simply do not understand faith. 

Yeah, that is pretty much the old stand by. I even understand the difference between belief and faith, but people forget that many people started out religious and with faith, but the more they looked into it, the more they started to debate it. In this case, it isn't that I lost faith, I picked up on reason. Faith when it comes to god, imo, it is more like gullibility just to be comfortable.

If you do not understand faith itself is the "reason" to beleive in something greater, you do not understand faith as much perhaps as your "beleif" tells you that you do.
 

If ones faith allows one to be "comfortable" with how they live their life and at ease at the time of their death, would that alone not be "reason" to beleive? .
 

Just because I got over it.....the faith that we've been talking about, doesn't mean I don't understand it. You're looking for something that just isn't there. Faith can allow you to be comfortable, yet it can harm people just as easily. Faith isn't always good. Living life with reason and rational thought is more beneficial to me. It's getting clearer and clearer to me that you might not know as much about faith as you think you do.

bringin, you admit faith can allow one to be comfortable, yet you calim there isno "reason" for faith?

I'm glad you beleive how you are living your life is best for you. Why the angst over how others choose to live theirs?

I have readily admitted I do not "know as much as others think they know"!  but I do know what my faith is based on. What I don;t know is why you and others have such a issue with it? 
 
By the way, some of the most reasonable and rational people I know also have the strongest faith of the people I know.

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BrinningTheRain I enjoy many of your posts so don't take this wrong.  Have you ever noticed how people with no kids tell people with kids how to raise kids?  I don't think people who do not believe in God are qualified to tell Christians what faith is. 

Don't take this wrong either(seriously), but have you ever noticed that some parents are extremely stupid? And that there are people out there without kids, that have a lot more common sense than some people with children? I have faith in things, I just don't have faith in god. I understand that there are different meanings for the worth faith, and that faith isn't always a good thing and it isn't always a bad. Peoples faith can change overtime too. Either by gaining knowledge or being influenced by others. Kind of like how almost everyone was influenced by their parents to go to church or because they believe in god.

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we have never found a transition fossil.  Millions of fossils, but no transition fossil.

which "transition" fossil would you like an example of?  if you understand evolution you'd understand almost all fossils are transition fossils.

This is the problem, you think that evolution means one sunny afternoon a fish turns into a bird and leaves the water like a mayfly.  there is no "1" transitional fossil between ape and current man, there are probably hundreds and we have examples of a few dozen.  which one do you want to see?

just more educational programming I'm sure skeptics won't watch.  Meatball, how you comming with that grand canyon video I posted, or do you stll think earthquakes happen because God ate too many beans?

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MSP I understand evolution.  I had it pounded into my head in college, and read more during my career.  You don't go to college in biology and work in it for 36 years and not understand evolution.    However, all that experience makes one also deal with the realities of the success and failures in science.  It's like global warming.  Just five years ago 3600 prominent scientists met in New York to talk about global cooling.  I think the future will not support evolution.  I think the old school will hang on as long as they can, but their time is passing.

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bringin, you admit faith can allow one to be comfortable, yet you calim there isno "reason" for faith? No, I didn't say there is no reason for faith.

I'm glad you beleive how you are living your life is best for you. Why the angst over how others choose to live theirs? I have no angst 

I have readily admitted I do not "know as much as others think they know"!  but I do know what my faith is based on. What I don;t know is why you and others have such a issue with it? I don't have an issue with any particular person on this site about it. For the most part, I have been talking about myself. The fact is, some people are influenced by faith in the wrong way. I do hope the worst of religion, throughout the history of the world, is in  the past. And that the world won't end because of some Muslims, Christians, and Jews slinging nukes at each other.
By the way, some of the most reasonable and rational people I know also have the strongest faith of the people I know.

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Plainsman Said:
MSP I understand evolution.  I had it pounded into my head in college, and read more during my career.  You don't go to college in biology and work in it for 36 years and not understand evolution.    However, all that experience makes one also deal with the realities of the success and failures in science.  It's like global warming.  Just five years ago 3600 prominent scientists met in New York to talk about global cooling.  I think the future will not support evolution.  I think the old school will hang on as long as they can, but their time is passing.

You never explain anything, you just keep telling us about your educational background (congratulations by the way, I respect that, I don't have any paperwork proving any of my schooling).  so because some scientists were wrong about things, and there are missing links in the fossil record that means evolution is BS?

its mathematically impossible for evolution not to work.  you can't tell me that poof there were a hundred billion species on earth X amount of years ago and they have been going extinct one by one ever since and we'll soon be all out of animals.

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multi-species-angler Said:

Plainsman Said:
MSP I understand evolution.  I had it pounded into my head in college, and read more during my career.  You don't go to college in biology and work in it for 36 years and not understand evolution.    However, all that experience makes one also deal with the realities of the success and failures in science.  It's like global warming.  Just five years ago 3600 prominent scientists met in New York to talk about global cooling.  I think the future will not support evolution.  I think the old school will hang on as long as they can, but their time is passing.

You never explain anything, you just keep telling us about your educational background (congratulations by the way, I respect that, I don't have any paperwork proving any of my schooling).  so because some scientists were wrong about things, and there are missing links in the fossil record that means evolution is BS?

its mathematically impossible for evolution not to work.  you can't tell me that poof there were a hundred billion species on earth X amount of years ago and they have been going extinct one by one ever since and we'll soon be all out of animals.

LOL Bruce you need to change the flavor of the kool-ad you keep trying to sever everyone. 

 

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  Multi If thats what you call proof, a few hundred pieces of bone, a few ape skulls, wow You guys get desperate, I am telling you, we are not monkeys, we are mermens.
   It comes down to this, men think they are pretty smart, there is no way there could be a God, we are the smartest most powerful creatures on this earth. I just love your pride, all of your smart comments, maybe you are a god, if you live a few thousand years you might evolve into one.

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  The commies in russia started a new education system after they took over power, hitler did the same, but what the commies did was go into elementary schools(start with the young of course) give the teacher two flowers, tell them to water only one, they would come back 2 weeks later then ask the class  which one was still alive, the class of course would say the one we water. Then the commies would say we gave life to this flower, we make things live or die, there is no God, we are the gods.
  I might not know everything there has to do with science, but the one thing I do knew is history, and as far as I am concerned you can keep your education, socialism, and evolution garbage. This is already is happening in our schools, its to brainwash our children into a community, social way of thinking, you control your destiny, but the state is the master. their would be no morals, you are nothing but a animal, a very evolved animal.
  I like being a Bible thumper, at least I dont have anything common with commies, or hitler.

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Meatball Said:
  The commies in russia started a new education system after they took over power, hitler did the same, but what the commies did was go into elementary schools(start with the young of course) give the teacher two flowers, tell them to water only one, they would come back 2 weeks later then ask the class  which one was still alive, the class of course would say the one we water. Then the commies would say we gave life to this flower, we make things live or die, there is no God, we are the gods.
  I might not know everything there has to do with science, but the one thing I do knew is history, and as far as I am concerned you can keep your education, socialism, and evolution garbage. This is already is happening in our schools, its to brainwash our children into a community, social way of thinking, you control your destiny, but the state is the master. their would be no morals, you are nothing but a animal, a very evolved animal.
  I like being a Bible thumper, at least I dont have anything common with commies, or hitler.

LOL

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MSA I only mentioned my education and experience because some speak as if they think everyone who doesn't believe evolution is an uneducated idiot.  My only point is I have heard nearly every argument for it. 

Here is one of my shortcomings.  I never used math enough to remember it well.  I was speaking to a person trying to explain possibilities to me the other day.  Some say time does  it all.  There is a mathematical equation for the simple development of a cell.  It goes many times beyond the 1/50,000 but that is where one statistician says there has to be outside influence for something to happen when chances are beyond that threshold.  I apologize for my ignorance about that publication and my lack of statistical abilities.  Perhaps someone else understands what I am talking about and can expound upon it. 

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Meatball Said:
  Multi If thats what you call proof, a few hundred pieces of bone, a few ape skulls, wow You guys get desperate, I am telling you, we are not monkeys, we are mermens.
  

remember when you said those lizards I posted were all the same species so that example doesn't count.  first off, the obvious, one of them has no legs! If thats not a transition example on the path to modern day snakes I don't know what is. and second if you want to get technical there are way more differences in their mitochondrial DNA between any 2 of those lizards than the differences between humans and chimpanzees.  Yes, that is a fact.  your DNA is more like a chimps than those lizards you told me were the same specie.

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Meatball Said:
  The commies in russia started a new education system after they took over power, hitler did the same, but what the commies did was go into elementary schools(start with the young of course) give the teacher two flowers, tell them to water only one, they would come back 2 weeks later then ask the class  which one was still alive, the class of course would say the one we water. Then the commies would say we gave life to this flower, we make things live or die, there is no God, we are the gods.
  I might not know everything there has to do with science, but the one thing I do knew is history, and as far as I am concerned you can keep your education, socialism, and evolution garbage. This is already is happening in our schools, its to brainwash our children into a community, social way of thinking, you control your destiny, but the state is the master. their would be no morals, you are nothing but a animal, a very evolved animal.
  I like being a Bible thumper, at least I dont have anything common with commies, or hitler.

Meatball, you are credit to your side of this discussion, and for that I thank you...now go back and watch that video I posted on how the grand canyon was formed.

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BringingTheRain Said:
I said, When faith replaces critical thinking, this isn't good.
That is an example of when faith isn't good.

anyone suggested they "need" God in their life just to be a good person.

Answer=      
Put your faith in man or God,  I choose God, I already seen what man can do, and there is nothing good in us, we think we are gods, we want to be gods, but we cannot even go home and be a proper father or husband, we are filled with hate and lust, anger and fear


What was suggested is that if your faith allows you to be a better person, what is the harm in faith?

If it goes to far, if your faith takes over critical thinking, evidence and common sense.

I don;t think I remember reading where anyone suggested forgetting "critical thinking"

Why do you assume I'm only talking about people on here?

It is quite simple, if you choose not to beleive in any thing you can not prove inside a test tube or petrie dish, I respect your beleif you choose. Please have the courteousy and self security to return the favor.

I didn't say don't believe in anything I can't prove. I don't believe in something of which there is absolutely not even remotely any reason or proof, whatsoever, to believe.

So if there is no reason whatsoever to beleive in something, why would there be a reason for faith?

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MSA is there a way to tell extinct species from what looks like transitional?   I'm not trying to be a smart a$$  I am asking if they have a fool proof way of doing that. 

I am asking that because I think we have thousands of extinct species.  I have seen some people that if someone stumbles on their skeleton a thousand years from now they are going to think they found the missing link. 

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Plainsman Said:
MSA is there a way to tell extinct species from what looks like transitional?   I'm not trying to be a smart a$$  I am asking if they have a fool proof way of doing that. 

I am asking that because I think we have thousands of extinct species.  I have seen some people that if someone stumbles on their skeleton a thousand years from now they are going to think they found the missing link. 

I don't understand what your definition of a transitional specie or fossil is? but yes, besides looking at obvious similarities, its in the DNA as well

there are hundreds of millions of extinct species, not thousands.  Like I said before, its mathematically impossible for evolution not to work.

you have to remember there is no rhyme or reason to evolution.  if the climate gets colder, the animals don't "evolve" and grow thicker fur.  many of them migrate or die. but sometimes a few that are born with that thicker fur do a better job at surviving and thus reproducing passing on that thicker fur trait.

a good example is the north american bison, we have a pretty complete fossil record of the bison species here in N. america, heck I even have a 15,000 year old Bison antiquss occidentalis skull from a specie that branched off and then coexisted with todays bison at the end of the pleistocene (the last ice age) 

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So if there is no reason whatsoever to beleive in something, why would there be a reason for faith?

You're forgetting there are different meanings of faith. Like I said, faith isn't always good. When you deny fact or logic because it doesn't agree with your faith, this can be very bad. Examples of this have happened time and time again, and still do. Like social, scientific, and technological advances being held back. 

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like religious politicians hindering stem cell research.

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multi-species-angler Said:
like religious politicians hindering stem cell research.

Nice.... Maybe if scientists could agree to use adult stem cells only we wouldn't have such problems? MSA are you sying aborting fetuses is only a religous issue????

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What's the differnce in killing an unborn baby and say a 35 year old man? They are both just animals right?

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And of course you (just as politicians have done) see the word stem cell and instantly assume cutting up aborted fetuses in a lab, and go against all stem cell research since one type stirred controversy.

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multi-species-angler Said:
And of course you (just as politicians have done) see the word stem cell and instantly assume cutting up aborted fetuses in a lab, and go against all stem cell research since one type stirred controversy.

hmmm..

buckmaster81 Said:

multi-species-angler Said:
like religious politicians hindering stem cell research.

Nice.... Maybe if scientists could agree to use adult stem cells only we wouldn't have such problems? MSA are you sying aborting fetuses is only a religous issue????

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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like religious politicians hindering stem cell research.

I think we all may be guilty.  That's one of my peeves about evolution.  When people are so sure they have the answer they don't continue to search for an answer.  When something is theory we should continue to search. 

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You can thank liberal politicians for binding abortion and stem cell research together. As usual they used one issue to try and champion another.

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buckmaster81 Said:

You can thank liberal politicians for binding abortion and stem cell research together. As usual they used one issue to try and champion another.

can you explain?  me no follow. 

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espringers Said:

buckmaster81 Said:

You can thank liberal politicians for binding abortion and stem cell research together. As usual they used one issue to try and champion another.

can you explain?  me no follow. 

Often times in politics they attach something less favorable to something more favorable to get their true ambitions met. Example: Stem cell research can lead to many medical discoveries/ cures. Stem cells can come from fetuses. Fetuses are... unborn babies... what have liberals fought forever to protect??? Abortion. Now attach the tone that fetuses are needed for stem cell research and SHAZAM!! We need abortion for stem cell research! All the while adult stem cells could be used, but nobody on the left brings that up.

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Multi,
i admit i'm only up to pg 6 on this thread.  but i wanted to know if you can prove you went to work on March 20th this year scientificly? 

 Live like you'll die tomorrow,
Die knowing you'll live forever.

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k.  i get your premise.  you think liberals were championing stem cell research in order to protect abortion.  kind of a round about way to support your cause don't you think.  are you asserting that the left drummed up the beneifts of embryonic stem cells in order to protect their abortion cause?  either way, that doesn't explain the rights continued opposition to embryonic stem cell research when said stem cells don't come from aborted fetuses.  the stem cells being used come from lines of cells that came from embryos that were no longer needed by people who were undergoing fertility treatments that would've simply been thrown away.  imho, the argument that religious affiliations were playing a role in politics and hindering scientific research is a very valid one in this case. 

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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