Nevada BLM actions background

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George Soros is against Cliven Bundy:

How George Soros Attacked Cliven Bundy – And Lost

http://theulstermanreport.com/2014/04/14/how-george-soros-attacked-clive...

That's enough to show me that Bundy is in the right!!!
 

Steve.

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Meelosh Said:
 

gst Said:

Meelosh Said:
 All other things aside g, when your renter stopped paying rent, how soon would you evict? Would you wait 20 years? I think not. Feel free to ask 20 questions rather than answer the question. 

Meelosh, if that said renter could establish a constant unbroken link of lawful proving of rights back to the purchase of them on what ever he was renting, who would be in the right to evict whom?

Did you happen to watch the videos in the previous thread about the Wayne Hage case right there in Nevada where the courts sided with him on the very premise Clive Bundy is claiming?

You sure like to give fishmahn, plainsman, etc. a lot of shit for dodging questions.....Not dodging them, in this case they are not so simple to answer. If I owned an apartment and someone did not pay their rent after the agreed upon time I would have to look for another renter dependant upon the situation.

1. You state yourself, he is a renter, thus he has no rights to evict anyone.Meelosh I am not as absolutely positive he is a "renter" . Did you watch the videos of the Wayne Hage case on the Fox news show with Jon Scott? 
A court of law seems to think Mr. Hage is not a "renter" as he was able to establish a clear unbroken link of "proving up" The water rights as required by westerm law all the way back to when they were purchased by his previous generation. Mr. Bundy appears to be claiming the same ability thru his families maintaining the water rights and developing them back to when they were first purchased. So I would guess this will eventually end up in the courts like other cases are as these families who have been on these lands for generations long before the BLM or Forrest Service were established seek to affirm their "rights" to use these lands as they are tied to water rights under western land law.
2. Nope. Don't know what thread you are talking about but it's likely I thought I had better shit to do. 

Google Wayne Hage Fox news enemies of the state and watch both video segments. Perhaps you do have better things to do, but if you wish to have a better understanding of this case, those videos shed a little light as well as a few of the articlesI have shared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67yR-Gj5u70

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihzMeD3ipKI

In the "just for plainsman thread they are posted where you can just click on the video and watch. Page 5.

Meelosh, do you understand what happened in 1993 and the changes the BLM underwent as compared to what they were originally formed to do?
The BLM was established to HELP ranchers manage these lands better for grazing cattle. The fees the ranchers paid were put back into establishing water, fencing ect....

In 1993 in this case the BLM as a result of a law suit started forcing these ranchers off these lands thru cutting back their allotments to a point they simply could npt stay in business. In Clark County where Mr Bundy lives 52 ranchers before him were forced off by theBLM doue to cutting of their allotments. Mr Bundy is the only remaining rancher in the county.

Meelosh did you happen to read the stories connecting Sen Reid to these BLM lands thru a developer and his sons and their involvement with a Chinese company?

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GST, are there as many farmers in your county now as there were in 1993? 

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outofrange Said:
GST, has Bundy established a clear chain of title to support their water rights claims? He claims he has, just not in a court of law. Is there any evidence of property dispute as Nevada entered statehood (at which time the state gave up any ownership of federal lands and citizens who had proper title to own land were able to keep it)? Refer to the Wayne Hage case where the courts seem to believe there was.

If they had proof that they actually owned the land at one point, I'd be right with you, They do not have to own the land, only the water rights that go to it. They claim their ancestors purchased these water rights when they first settled there. but the fact is that chain of title does not prove that How do you know? Have you examined the Bundys records of  "proving up" the water rights which under the Hage case ties the land usage to them?and the state does not and has not ever claimed ownership. If the Bundy family would have had proper rights to the land, it would have become theirs at the inception of Nevada statehood. I would imagine they will have to go thru a court of las as did Mr Hage and several others that are now doing the same thing. Did you bother to read any of the articles I have shared mentioning how water rights are proven and land usage is tied to them in these western states?

Out of range I asked you once, why do you think the BLM was destroying water systems on these lands?


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GST.. you seem like a nerdy moron that holds grudges and doesn't have many friends. Please stop posting your one sided argumentive crap here and start your own site (doubt anyone would read it ) I have never met plainsman but agree with him a lot more than you. Every topic that you comment on is just stupid and can tell the outcome from the beginning. I could be wrong but I think fishingbuddy.com would be better without your slanderous one sided, always having an agenda stuff. Go out hunting and fishing more. The weather is finally starting to cooperate.. Please!!


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What does that have to do with this discussion. 

outofrange Said:
GST, are there as many farmers in your county now as there were in 1993? 

There may not be as many "farmers" as in "people," but you can bet your ass that there are more acres being farmed now than in 1993.

That's not the case with acreage being used for cattle grazing in Clark County Nevada from 1993 until 2014.

Steve.

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You get to ask questions that aren't Germaine, why can't i?  

Bundy has has been at this for 25+ years. Has he produced clear chain of title?

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RSL Said:
George Soros is against Cliven Bundy:

How George Soros Attacked Cliven Bundy – And Lost

http://theulstermanreport.com/2014/04/14/how-george-soros-attacked-clive...

That's enough to show me that Bundy is in the right!!!
 

And a little more light is shined onto the tangled web. Note the emntion of the Center for Biological Diversity

You see the Center for Biological diversity was one of two orgs that sued the USF&WS over their handling of the Endangered Species Act. And as a result these Federal agencies HAD to move forward changing the management of these lands and the generations of ranchers suddenly found themselves faced with major drastic cut backs and limitations placed upon them. Even right here in North Dakota.

Check out something called the "Wild Lands"
http://www.wildlandsprojectrevealed.org/htm/summary.html

  • The goal of the Wildlands Project is to set aside approximately fifty (50) percent of the North American continent (Turtle Island) as "wild land" for the preservation of biological diversity.
  • The project seeks to do this by creating "reserve networks" across the continent. Reserves are made up of the following:
    • Cores, created from public lands such as National Forest and Parks
    • Buffers, often created from private land adjoining the cores to provide additional protection
    • Corridors, a mix of public and private lands usually following along rivers and wildlife migration routes
  • The primary characteristics of core areas are that they are large (100,000 to 25 million acres), and allow for little, if any, human use.
  • The primary characteristics of buffers are that they allow for limited human use so long as they are "managed with native biodiversity as a preeminent concern."
  • Moral and ethical guidelines for the Wildlands Project are based on the philosophy of Deep Ecology.
  • The eight point platform of Deep Ecology can be summarized as follows:
    • All life (human and non-human) has equal value.
    • Resource consumption above what is needed to supply "vital" human needs is immoral.
    • Human population must be reduced
    • Western civilization must radically change present economic, technological, and ideological structures.
    • Believers have an obligation to try to implement the necessary changes.
  • The Wildlands Project itself is supported by hundreds of groups working towards its long-term implementation. Implementation may take 100 years or more.
  • The Wildlands Project has received millions of dollars in support from wealthy private and corporate foundations such as the Turner Foundation, Patagonia, W. Alton Jones Foundation, Lyndhurst Foundation, etc.

Conclusion:
The Wildlands Project exist within legal boundaries, however that should not prevent us from being concerned. At the very least, it advocates an extreme manifestation of environmental and public policy. Therefore, any claim the Wildlands Project makes toward public policy must be debated, and ultimately decided, in the public arena. Yet to date it has existed almost anonymously; beyond the knowledge of the wider public. It must be examined out from behind the cover of more general environmental concerns, held up for public scrutiny, and either accepted or rejected by a public fully aware of its implications. Failing to do so could have dire consequences, for as John Adams once wrote, "Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge by the people."

Note the SW Center for Biological Diversity is directly involved in this project to remove everyone from 50% of this continent.

George Sorros and other billionaire investors donate millions to these groups to buy off their pressure on other investments.

The BLM lands that were to be taken for the Reid/Chinese solar farm had to be mitigated to keep these enviromental groups happy. Mr Bundy happened to be running cattle on the lands they were going to use to mitigate the sale of BLM lands to the Chinese.

now here is a question for meelosh and out of range. Mr Bundy was trying to pay his fees to Clark County as he believed they had the preemptive rights thru the water to these lands.

If Clark County does not have some sort of authority, how can the County commissioners vote unanimously under Sen Reads son as the head of the county commissioners to sell these BLM lands to the Chinese investment group?

You did read that story didn;t you?

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 Sorry GST but those Bundy's are some real nut jobs

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outofrange Said:
You get to ask questions that aren't Germaine, why can't i?  

Bundy has has been at this for 25+ years. Has he produced clear chain of title?

What questions exactly are not "germaine"?

He beleives he has thru his "proving up" of the water rights.

Did you watvch the Fox ?News videos of the Wayne Hage case?

Out of range, why do you beleive the BLM was destroying water systems on these lands?

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Here is the way it really sits!!! FED GOV OVER REACTING AND A RANCHER WHO HAS NOT PAID GRAZING FEES IS THE CAUSE OF IT!!!!!

This dispute has been going on for a long time!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Hardwaterman Said:
Here is the way it really sits!!! FED GOV OVER REACTING AND A RANCHER WHO HAS NOT PAID GRAZING FEES IS THE CAUSE OF IT!!!!!

This dispute has been going on for a long time!

This pretty much sums it up. 

Is it impious to weigh goose music and art in the same scales? I think not, because the true hunter is merely a noncreative artist. Who painted the first picture on a bone in the caves of France? A hunter. Who alone in our modern life so thrills to the sight of living beauty that he will endure hunger and thirst and cold to feed his eye upon it? The hunter. Who wrote the great hunter's poem about the sheer wonder of the wind, the hail, and the snow, the stars, the lightnings, and the clouds, the lion, the deer, and the wild goat, the raven, the hawk, and the eagle, and above all the eulogy to the horse? Job, one of the great dramatic artists of all time. Poets sing and hunters scale the mountains primarily for one and the same reason--the thrill of beauty. Critics write and hunters outwit their game primarily for one and the same reason--to reduce that beauty to possession. The differences are largely matters of degree, consciousness, and that sly arbiter of the classification of human activities, language. If, then, we can live without goose music, we may as well do away with stars, or sunsets, or Iliads. But the point is we would be fools to do away with any of them. 

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aba Said:
 Sorry GST but those Bundy's are some real nut jobs

As I said earlier, there were people that thought those that dumped the tea into Boston Harbor were "nut jobs" as well.

I honestly cannot say what I would have done in this situation. Mr Hage seemed to have the monies and where with all to go thru the courts. Perhaps Mr. Bundy did not.

But at what point if a citizen of this nation beleive's he is in the right and has some sort of precedence to perhaps show he is, should he not standup to the govt that is trying to run him out of business?

Until you have been faced with a govt agency with an agenda trying to run you out of your business your family has been in for multiple generations because the agencies have changed their goals and are being driven by radical enviromental agendas we may not have an appreciation of what these people have gone thru.

Look at the connections to what is behind this in the govt and tell us if you could stand up to it?


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Hardwaterman Said:
Here is the way it really sits!!! FED GOV OVER REACTING AND A RANCHER WHO HAS NOT PAID GRAZING FEES IS THE CAUSE OF IT!!!!!

This dispute has been going on for a long time!

Ah it took awhile.

Ron did you watch the Wayne Hage videos?

Meelosh did you?

The courts seem to have a differnt opinion than you two in that case that has very real similarities.

It seems like plasinamn you two are willing to completely over look the chain of connections to Sen Reid and the Chinese and the sale and development of these lands

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 GST at what point in time the government have the right to boot the Bundy's off this land?

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 I watched the videos. The younger Hege stated that his father knew he would have to deal with federal agencies just as he did in California, which means he KNEW he would have to pay rent. Which he didn't do. 

Is it impious to weigh goose music and art in the same scales? I think not, because the true hunter is merely a noncreative artist. Who painted the first picture on a bone in the caves of France? A hunter. Who alone in our modern life so thrills to the sight of living beauty that he will endure hunger and thirst and cold to feed his eye upon it? The hunter. Who wrote the great hunter's poem about the sheer wonder of the wind, the hail, and the snow, the stars, the lightnings, and the clouds, the lion, the deer, and the wild goat, the raven, the hawk, and the eagle, and above all the eulogy to the horse? Job, one of the great dramatic artists of all time. Poets sing and hunters scale the mountains primarily for one and the same reason--the thrill of beauty. Critics write and hunters outwit their game primarily for one and the same reason--to reduce that beauty to possession. The differences are largely matters of degree, consciousness, and that sly arbiter of the classification of human activities, language. If, then, we can live without goose music, we may as well do away with stars, or sunsets, or Iliads. But the point is we would be fools to do away with any of them. 

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aba Said:
 GST at what point in time the government have the right to boot the Bundy's off this land?

Perhaps once a court case has been heard such as the one Wayne Hage went thru and it is determined that there is no "chain" back to the purchasing of water rights.

Perhaps when someone proves it is not about removing cattle from lands that are being mitigated to offset the sale of BLM lands to other developers.

Perhaps when someone actually proves a detriment to the desert tortoise that the very agency that is charges with saving them is killing them by the hundreds.

aba, just curious, what do you think about these Federal BLM lands being sold to developers?


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Meelosh Said:
 I watched the videos. The younger Hege stated that his father knew he would have to deal with federal agencies just as he did in California, which means he KNEW he would have to pay rent. Which he didn't do. 

Meelosh, that is not really what was stated in the video was it? I believe he said that he had been ABLE to deal/work with these Federal agencies in California so he thought he would be ABLE to deal/work with those in Nevada.

What did the court decide in the Hage case?

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Do you understand what his claim is? The claim is that the land does not belong to BLM! That the state owned the land and water rights. He has in the past made statements that recognized the BLM authority. o the tune of 50 plus years of payments to them.

The ownership of this land is documented to be BLM or FED OWNED LAND!!!

So in a nut shell that is the dispute. He has no documentation to back his claim and Feds do. It is pretty simple. The Hage's do have and presented documentation. Thus the video is not relevant only to show that you need that to prevail.

Now as I said I felt they had better options and should have pursued them. Does not mean that their over the top actions changes the fact that the rancher is flat out wrong in this! What he is doing and done is completely different than the Hage case.

The ditch he talked about his dad cleaned and was arrested for, well the Forest Service never denied he had water rights, just that they could not use mechanical means to clear the ditch and restore flow. In regards to the 9th remember it is the most reversed district by the SCOTUS which is who is likely to hear the Hage case.

So like it or not gst and Fritz the rancher is on the wrong side of the law on this! The feds should have simply filed a lien against the cattle upon sale. Same result  and the correct course. There is no dispute as to ownership of the lands!!! Water rights I have no idea.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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gst I have not overlooked anything regarding Stinky Harry!!! However Stinky harry is not the one that stopped paying grazing fees, stinky harry was not the Head of the Senate in 93, this goes back that far.

I do believe the pull back has a lot to do with his balls being exposed and about to be smashed over this event and still may.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/14/in-his-own-words-heres-why-the-nevada-rancher-refuses-to-recognize-federal-authority/

I think you should listen to his own words and where he falls flat on his claims!

This is what you and others need to start paying attention to. Not the Hage case which is not going to have any impact on this!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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ron, do you know for a fact this family could not establish a link back on water rights to when they purchased them?

Take a look at this if you still believe this is about grazing rights and tortoises.

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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the American Government take care of him;better take a closer look at the American Indian."
Henry Ford

 

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Do you know for a fact he does? You first!!! I have listened to him three times in the last week on various programs and he is not credible period!! HE has flipped around from first saying it is BLM land to his latest comments about it being NV land and that is whom they bought lifetime grazing rights from.

I am going by his own words when he stated he did not have the proper documentation to prove the NV purchase as well. He talked about trying to pay then refusing to pay and then deciding the state of NV should be receiving the money.

So what is it? TO me this is pretty clear, he has no documents to push is point and is relying on public opinion to get his way!! Hage family I do believe have some real complaints. This guy not so much!!!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Hardwaterman Said:
gst I have not overlooked anything regarding Stinky Harry!!! However Stinky harry is not the one that stopped paying grazing fees, stinky harry was not the Head of the Senate in 93, this goes back that far.

I do believe the pull back has a lot to do with his balls being exposed and about to be smashed over this event and still may.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/14/in-his-own-words-heres-why-the-nevada-rancher-refuses-to-recognize-federal-authority/

I think you should listen to his own words and where he falls flat on his claims!

This is what you and others need to start paying attention to. Not the Hage case which is not going to have any impact on this!

ron, read that awhile ago. Funny thing is there are some pretty sharp people (constitutional scholars) saying kinda the same thing. Read an article about it (can;t find it right now and have to go check cows) but it had to do with an Article of the Constitution and something about forts and such and how each state was to be brought into the union under equal standings or something.

If I can find it will post it.

Perhaps the Bundys can not establish what the Hages have and others are beginning to do. I thought I watched an interview where one son believed they could. Time will tell.

Ron says"The ditch he talked about his dad cleaned and was arrested for, well the Forest Service never denied he had water rights, just that they could not use mechanical means to clear the ditch and restore flow. In regards to the 9th remember it is the most reversed district by the SCOTUS which is who is likely to hear the Hage case."

 ron, you do realize the court that upheld the Hage case was NOT the 9th right?

ron why would the BLM be destroying water systems on these lands during this confrontation as they have been accused of doing?

I wonder if the Bundys have to restore them by hand with no mechanical assistance as well?

Ron What was the BLM originally formed to do?

What did happen in 93 with the BLM and management of these lands?

Indeed ron, make a rancher use a shovel to maintain miles of ditches for water instead of a backhoe and of course it becomes much harder to prove up your water rights thru improvements and maintenance.

Come on really have to dig the ditches out by hand? What difference would it make if they were dug out according to specs? Other than difficulty and time of course.

Perhaps the Feds should make you walk to all your blind cleaning jobs instead of driving a vehicle. But then your "right" to clean blinds does not depend on your ability to maintain your blind cleaning supplies now does it.

"The ditch he talked about his dad cleaned and was arrested for, well the Forest Service never denied he had water rights,"

ron I thought that was what you claimed, he did not have these water rights?

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Hardwaterman Said:
 There is no dispute as to ownership of the lands!!! Water rights I have no idea.

ron what do you know about "water rights" in these western desert lands and the right to land usage that is tied to the water rights?

Why under Nevada law do you have to "prove up" your water rights every 3 years?

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 Send that Bundy to jail. 

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  • The Wildlands Project has received millions of dollars in support from wealthy private and corporate foundations such as the Turner Foundation, Patagonia, W. Alton Jones Foundation, Lyndhurst Foundation, etc.

Foundations were first set up to do philanthropy work. Red Cross etc. Companies could take some of their profits and instead of paying taxes into the US General Treasurey, they were allowed to put it into foundations. Over the years laws have been watered down and now these foundations can give money to non-profits for just about dumb thing.

One of their favorites is education. ( propaganda) They use it to make public policy.
And they also make Presidents now. Barak Obama was discovered on the Board for the Joyce Foundation based out of Chicago before they made him President.

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Again the point I make is simply listening to Bundys own words!!! He has no case! Like I said before there are three separate issues here. Bundy and his actions which are wrong, the Feds in how they reacted, and Stinky Harry and his actions!

So get over yourself already and stop and look at this for what it is!!!
 
One a rancher who has made a choice and was wrong!

Two how the Feds went about removing the cattle. They as I said had other options and should have taken that route. Does not mean that their legal position is wrong which I do believe it is correct.

Three is Stinky Harry and how deep into the favor giving and payoff he is!!!

So lets say Stinky Harry is involved, it does not change the fact that Bundy is wrong and should not be allowed to roam his cattle fee free!
 
Now lets look at the actions of the Feds to enforce the trespass violations! Liens and other means where viable and should have been the first choice not the actions taken!
But even though they have backed off on the action it does not change the fact that the cattle are in a trespass situation when rounded up!!

You can try but there is no getting around these three issues not providing an excuse or vindicating any one of them. I know that concept is hard to grasp for you but it really is the reality of this situation. Rancher wrong, Feds wrong on choice of action, Stinky Harry dealing under the table which is wrong as well.

Rancher being wrong does not excuse the Feds or Harry, Feds action do not excuse the actions of the rancher or Harry, and Harry doing what he looks to have, does not give the rancher a pass or excuse his poor judgment!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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ron, I will ask you the same question I asked a couple of others that no one has answered.

"now here is a question for meelosh and out of range. Mr Bundy was trying to pay his fees to Clark County as he believed they had the preemptive rights thru the water to these lands.

If Clark County does not have some sort of authority, how can the County commissioners vote unanimously under Sen Reads son as the head of the county commissioners to sell these BLM lands to a Chinese investment group? "

I don;t know, I am asking here.

how can "Non-Governmental Organizations" have a say in "regional mitigation" of these BLM lands

Land the Bundy family has been using for cattle ranching is getting in the way of that project, according to documents formerly posted on the Bureau of Land Management’s government website but since removed.

The acting director of the Bureau of Land Management is Neil Kornze, a former Reid senior policy advisor.

Here is a screenshot of one crucial document from Google’s cache.

The most interesting line might be:

Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle.”

So how can these BLM lands be sold to developers and then have other BLM lands be used to "mitigate" these sales by kicking ranchers of them? (remember 52 others have been forced out of Clark County by BLM management changes)

ron thru out history, how many laws have been changed because someone had the audacity to stand up and say this is wrong?

So ron, what do you know about water rights and how they are tied to land usage rights in these western states and what do you know about multiple use laws these Federal lands were once under?

Why under Nevada law do you have to "prove up" your water rights every three years?

And one last question ron.

"So get over yourself already and stop and look at this for what it is!!!
"

Why do you always have to make things personal instead of just having a reasonable discussion?

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ron I will borrow your methodology.

One. Neither you nor out of range or others likely know whether Mr. Bundy can not  trace his "ownership" of the water rights which allow him land usage under the Western land laws back unbroken to when his ancestors purchased them any more than I know he can. (I would guess this has something to do with why the BLM agents were destroying water systems going forth in the courts)

i would imagine Mr Bundy is being contacted by a number of lawyers to help him with his case and we will at some point see this in the courts as we did the Hage case.

two. If it exposes the fact that the BLM which was founded originally to HELP ranchers better manage these lands andhave more cattle on them thru development of water systems fencing ect with the very fees the ranchers themselves paid have made a 180 switch as a result of agenda driven court forced enviromental management changes which now instead of helping ranchers as the agency was created to do, uses these ranchers very own fees they pay to force them out of business as it has with 52 of the 53 ranchers in Clark County and we have changes made to the laws that have allowed this, I support Mr. Bundy's actions.

Three.  If it exposes the cronyism and fraudulent actions of our Congressional members as they use their positions to line theirs and their families pockets on the backs of endangered species ( the rancher on these western lands) while allowing developers and Chinese firms to buy these lands instead and we have a change in the laws that allow this I support Mr. Bundy's actions.

Four. I beleive in the citizens of this nations responsibility to throw off the yoke of over bearing, unjust govt actions and laws just as those that founded this nation did. They were visionary in what they created and gave us and they expected the people of this nation to stand up and fight to keep it just as they did to create it. And if Mr Bundy's actions help reign in a clear trend of over reach by the Federal govt as it grows out of control I support his actions.

But I fear that while complaining about the over reach of Federal agencies such as Homeland Security buying up ammunition, the IRS targeting conservative groups , NSA spying on our communications ect... when it comes to the actions of the BLM and the Forrest Service and the USF&WS putting people out of business some will choose to forget the following.

""A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have."

Or worse falsely paint the person who does have the courage to exercise these responsibilities to stand up to an over bearing govt as being in the wrong.


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