Nevada BLM actions background

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Neat

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Man you guys are brutal today.

Plainsman said,

With so few people agreeing with them how long do you suppose it will be before the understand they crapped in their own nest, and give it up?

So few people agreeing with me??? This is FBO. I fully realize where I'm at.

Bringin the rain is bringing back his snopes piece. It seems snopes got their info from the wildlife news.

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/

What is the Wildlife News? Who publish's that?

http://www.wildlife.org/publications/wildlife-news-briefs

Ah yes the wildlife society, all the news that's fit to invent. A person just needs to be able to smell where and what you're standing in.

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Yea, you who are with mr bundy are in the wrong for taking up arms against the law...  It is that simple.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/rachel-maddow-fox-news-cliven-b...

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Plainsman Said:

Remember bruce it was the ranchers themselves that sought the help to address over grazing.

So your saying it's sort of like a drunk that can't stop so he asks for help.  I don't know, my parents never had a problem with overgrazing.  Maybe they had more self control.  At least I know it didn't require a federal agency to help them. 
  

Really?

What do you know about Allen Savory

One of our biologists had professional contact with him about his holistic management.   I worked with that biologist for five years.  That's why I disagreed with you in one thread on nodakoutdoors when you tried to give credit for holistic management to some old rancher (named Ray I think) in Montana.  I am very familiar with Allen Savory. 
Plaisnamn, Ray Banister learned much of what he has shared here in  the US from Allen Savory. If you are "very familiar" with Allen Savory, then you know most of his work was done in countries like Africa. Ray Bannister brought those practices and ideas to the US.

If you truly know about Allen Savory and Ray Bannister and others like his are doing, then you know what can be done with grazing on lands such as the ones you have claimed there should be no grazing on.

So Bruce why would you claim there should be no grazing on thse multiple use lands?

From that debate I said:

I hope others will forgive me, but I had a friendly question to ask and am not looking for debate on this. I would PM you , but those always go south also. You mentioned holistic grazing done by Ray. One of the biologists I worked with was working on grazing systems and looking at waterfowl nesting success in different systems. It went so well that NDSU duplicated the study at the Streeter experiment station to look at beef production. Anyway, I spent some time with the guy and had to read up on the holistic management system developed by Allan Savory. Is that the same system that Ray worked with? We often take credit for things here in America, but Allan is from Rhodesia. Well, it was called Rhodesia but I think that is gone now. A family friend was a missionary in Northern Rhodesia, but I think that is Zambia now. Anyway are we talking about the same grazing system. What did Ray do?

Sorry to take this off subject guys, I apologize. I'm just so darn curious about some of these things even though I am retired now. Thank you for your patients with me. :thumb:

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ndraised Said:
Yea, you who are with mr bundy are in the wrong for taking up arms against the law...  It is that simple.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/rachel-maddow-fox-news-cliven-b...

How about a pen or a keyboard?

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Hardwaterman Said:
gst you got caught in the lie and cannot man up and accept that you where caught.

  ron, you are now dismissing universally accepted English language standards to continue your accusation of a lie?

The land came to be US Gov land in 1848 remained so, never was the state of NV land straight up and simple. The Bundy family entered into that area some 30 years later.

Who owned the water rights ron? Remember ron that is the premise Wayne Hage used to overturn the claims the BLM made against him which were upheld by the courts. Do you know if the Bundys can trace an unbroken chin of ownership and improvements of the water rights back to when their ancestors purchased them?

No you can not any more than I can. Time will tell in the courts I would imagine.

You admitted earlier you do not know much about water rights in these western alnds ron, it is showing.

The time line just does not work for the claims he is making. Courts have already ruled that the ownership has not been broken.

On the water rights ron?? Big difference.

No matter how bad you want Bundy to be right gst he is not and the timeline I posed along with the court decisions that where included really shows that you and your minions wanking away are either clueless or dumb or radicals or all of the above.
   ron, once again I have never said he is "right" in not paying fees to the BLM have I. Wethr he can produce the same documentation Wayne Hage did remains to be seen doesn't it.

Because despite your erroneous claims, the court case that went against Bundy was NOT about that, but simply whether he had paid the BLM fees which he readily admits he did not.

rsl The issue of water rights does play a role in this, I am not giving the BLM a pass nor do I think they are acting in a manner that is or has been proper for the ranchers. However the Hage Family has taken the proper course and won in court where based on the documentation should prevail in the higher courts.

Bundy forfeited his rights to pursure that same avenue with his actions. How, do you know he has forfieted his water rights because of his actions?? Do you know something that will likely be decided by the courts?? Tell us ron what do you base these claims on? Again wrong on their part does not make give justification to  Bundy's wrong actions either. This is what gst and other supporters of Bundy have to grasp.

Like  I said a long time ago in this thread, one can get a very clear understanding of where Bundy went wrong by reading the court decisions as well as listening to his many statements he has made over the years.

The courts have stated he had not presented the documentation to support his claims.He has stated he does not have them as well. He recognized the BLM ownership of the land for years then when they in his opinion where not following the agreement refused to pay the fees but continued to use the land anyway. Any money or improvements made on his part after that point where not done under  binding agreement. Nor as the courts found constitute because they where illegal activity basis to retain any water rights tied to them.

It is pretty simple if anyone can take of the blinders or put aside the bias. I did not comment on this issue until I had done my reading on the court findings. But yet you erroneously claimed these "court findings were regarding Bundys connection back to the original purchase of water rights! How much smoke are you trying to blow here ron. Once I had, it was very clear where he screwed himself in all this!

So once again the time line is pretty clear, Bundy made a poor choice in 93 that cost him any standing for his current and even past claims.

The Feds where legally entitled to act as they did, but as I said before thought it was an over the top response not needed and I will not disagree designed to intimidate. It is that very reason why I opposed the actions they took.

Then there is the separate issue of what Dirty Harry tried to do or appears at least tried to do. Separate and having no relevant bearings on Bundy's standings.

The bloviating on this is pretty clear that rule of law does not matter to them. Instead they try and imply that Bundy is victim who had no part in what is happened to him. But reality is that he is a victim of his own poor choice and nothing more.

This understanding does not make one anti rancher, or even pro government it simply makes one informed of the events and why the outcome occurred.

Sounds a bit like "bloviating" to me ron.

Hows your remedial English classes coming ron? Is, Was past tense, present tense, confusing I know, but stick with it and you'll be reading at a 3rd grade level before you know it.

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Longshot Said:

gst Said:

RSL Said:
ps:  One other thing that hasn't been discussed much is water rights.

Most people do not understand western states water rights.

It was why I have asked a couple of the questions I did no one wanted to aswer.

I would guess the courts know what they need to about water rights.  They ruled against him.  Just as I have asked ron, please show the court case where the courts "ruled" against Bundy on the linkage of control on the water rights as they did in the Hage case. You have to be dense to not understand that.  . Why hasn't he appealed?  My guess is that he knows he has no right to this property, but still wants the free grazing. 

Hardwaterman Said:
 I did not comment on this issue until I had done my reading on the court findings.

Given ron has demonstrated he is short of a 3rd grade reading level by his own standards on the previous page, I would seek a second opinion longshot.

longshot what do you know about past and present tense in the English language?

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Plainsman Said:
  I guess you guys will support a rancher even if he is criminal.  Nice. 

Bruce were the people that intentionally broke the Jim Crow laws "criminals"?

Were the people that threw the crates of tea into Boston Harbor "criminals"?

There have been any number of "criminals" whos actions shed light on unjust laws that were righted byt the courts and legislatures.

Apparently you have forgotten what this nation was built upon. Indeed plaisnamn as a former life long govt employee, perhaps you have become broken to the yoke.

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BringingTheRain Said:
 As for that Cliven Bundy character, how much more un-American can that man get?? 

So you prefer the armed BLM agents and snipers training their weapons on the Bundy family for not paying fees for grazing cattle as "American"??

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BringingTheRain Said:
 That whole militia thing is embarrassing too under these circumstances. looked like a bunch of tacticool dudes who hate government, just wanting a reason to bring out their weapons and look badass. 

There is some of that to a degree, but there are also people that simply believe in the Constitution.

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Plainsman Said:

BringingTheRain Said:
 That whole militia thing is embarrassing too under these circumstances. looked like a bunch of tacticool dudes who hate government, just wanting a reason to bring out their weapons and look badass. 

Under the circumstances they gave a black eye to responsible gun owners.  Brains of children in adult bodies.  They don't care about anyone but themselves.  If they succeed you can bet some rancher in North Dakota will give it a try too.  I would not have thought that until I seen gst's an Fritz's posts.
With so few people agreeing with them how long do you suppose it will be before the understand they crapped in their own nest, and give it up?  Perhaps never. Bruce remember this comment if the 5% measure gets on the ballot and passes.

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Best post of the day.

johnr Said:

At least it appears to be the most honest!

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gst Said:

eyexer Said:

I'm not sure who'd want to eat meat from cattle that was raised on that type of situation. 

ever eat at McDonalds or Burger King?

don't ruin it for me, that is grade A kangaroo meat.  And yes I eat there several times a week and love it.

 

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ron if you wish to continue accusing me of lying, at least have the courteousy to address this post.

gst Said:

Hardwaterman Said:

This stubborn old rancher who was standing against a govt regulation (note it is NOT a law) that he believed was unjust in using his own monies to force him out of business is being used as an excuse to remove cattle from these lands to appease the demands of the radical enviromentalists to avoid a lawsuit tehy would file to provide mitigating acres to offset those sold by Reids's son as the head of the Clark County Commissioners at a value FAR below appraised value to a Chinese firm for development.

YOU continue to put into print lies gst and the one I pasted above is the biggest whopper yet! The dispute with Bundy started in 93 well before Reid was in a position to influence the appointment to the BLM as well as the China deal taking place way later.

I will continue to call you a liar when you make the insinuation that this is a result of Reid.

Your post claims otherwise and that is a bold faced lie!!!!!!

Ron, is the post I high lighted in red where you think I "imply" that there was some connection back in 93 between Reid and Bundys action as you claim makes me a "liar"?

It seems to be as you have quoted it and claim it is in your following post. (note the emboldened statement you make below)

 

Hardwaterman Said:
Nice spin attempt gst, your post that I highlighted is a factual lie because of what you imply!!!! NO getting out of it and anyone with a 3rd grade reading level can see it for themselves. GST you lied and it is in print own it or shut up!!!

Since it surely seems to be, perhaps can I suggest you need to revisit your "3rd grade" English lessons.

Note the emboldened use of the word "is" that I have taken the liberty of enlarging for you as well in the statement that you claim is a lie. 

Note how that words usage would "imply" current time frames, the present, right now, as we speak kind of time frames. .

Jimmy IS jumping the gate.

When it is stated that Jimmy IS jumping the gate, it is being used to "imply" that it is happening as the person speaks, in the present tense.

Jimmy WAS jumping the gate.

When it is stated that Jimmy WAS jumping the gate, it is being used to "imply" that it happened at some earlier time frame, an hour ago, yesterday, past tense. 

Now had the word "was" been used instead of "is", one could claim that it was being used to "imply"  a reference back to an earlier time frame, before the comment, perhaps yesterday, or even 20 years ago. ............

But it wasn't now was it ron.

So ron, note the usage of the word "is" instead of the word "was" if you please would.

In this statement the word "IS""Implies" present tense.

I remember it took me a bit to get all this back in grade school as well hardwaterman.

If you are still confused ron, I am sure any 3rd grade English teacher can help you out.

Perhaps a "time out" is in order ron.

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This actually is teh "type" of beef that is in the shortest supply here i the US. Beef that will fill the demand for gind (hamburger) is hard to come by. These lean type cattle are needed to fill this void as burger is the highest demand cut of beef in the US.

eyexer Said:
 

gst Said:

eyexer Said:

I'm not sure who'd want to eat meat from cattle that was raised on that type of situation. 

ever eat at McDonalds or Burger King?

don't ruin it for me, that is grade A kangaroo meat.  And yes I eat there several times a week and love it.

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Yes Bill it depends on what is is. 

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Fritz the Cat Said:
Man you guys are brutal today.

Plainsman said,

With so few people agreeing with them how long do you suppose it will be before the understand they crapped in their own nest, and give it up?

So few people agreeing with me??? This is FBO. I fully realize where I'm at.

Bringin the rain is bringing back his snopes piece. It seems snopes got their info from the wildlife news.

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/

What is the Wildlife News? Who publish's that?

http://www.wildlife.org/publications/wildlife-news-briefs

Ah yes the wildlife society, all the news that's fit to invent. A person just needs to be able to smell where and what you're standing in.

I'm pretty sure a saw a Breitbart article on here too

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Yea I didn't see any of the RADICAL snipers on the bridge holding pens or keyboards.. You know if you were to point a gun at cops in ND you ass would be in jail. AS IT SHOULD BE.. it is that fucking simple

Fritz the Cat Said:

ndraised Said:
Yea, you who are with mr bundy are in the wrong for taking up arms against the law...  It is that simple.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/rachel-maddow-fox-news-cliven-b...

How about a pen or a keyboard?

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 Bundy's claim that the land belongs to Nevada or Clark County didn't hold up in court, nor did his claim of inheriting an ancestral right to use the land that pre-empts the BLM's role. "We definitely don't recognize [the BLM director's]jurisdiction or authority, his arresting power or policing power in any way," Bundy told his supporters, according to The Guardian.

His personal grievance with federal authority doesn't stop with the BLM, though. "I believe this is a sovereign state of Nevada," Bundy said in a radio interview last Thursday. "I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But I don’t recognize the United States government as even existing." Ironically, this position directly contradicts Article 1, Section 2 of the Nevada Constitution:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-irony-of-cliven-...

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gst Said:

BringingTheRain Said:
 As for that Cliven Bundy character, how much more un-American can that man get?? 

So you prefer the armed BLM agents and snipers training their weapons on the Bundy family for not paying fees for grazing cattle as "American"??

Depends. They know that guy and how he acts better than anyone. If They feel he's dangerous.

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gst Said:

BringingTheRain Said:
 That whole militia thing is embarrassing too under these circumstances. looked like a bunch of tacticool dudes who hate government, just wanting a reason to bring out their weapons and look badass. 

There is some of that to a degree, but there are also people that simply believe in the Constitution.

Bring me up to speed on what exactly is unconstitutional here? 

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This Bundy guy has been breaking the law for 20 years. He has lost every legal case. Has he paid anything to the state for grazing? They should either arrest the clown or if he prefers it'll end up like Kahl. The bottom line is it's his choice.

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ndraised Said:
Yea I didn't see any of the RADICAL snipers on the bridge holding pens or keyboards.. You know if you were to point a gun at cops in ND you ass would be in jail. AS IT SHOULD BE.. it is that fucking simple

Fritz the Cat Said:

ndraised Said:
Yea, you who are with mr bundy are in the wrong for taking up arms against the law...  It is that simple.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/rachel-maddow-fox-news-cliven-b...

How about a pen or a keyboard?

At the Ruby Ridge Standoff, sniper Lon Horuchi shot Mrs. Weaver right between the eyes as she was holding her daughter. What a mess. The fed/gov had a helicopter over the house with a gasoline bladder when Col. Bo Gritz intervened. He was the most highly decorated veteran from Vietnam and Randy Weaver was one of his.

He talked Randy into coming out. In the end Randy was awarded something like three million.

Had Bo Gritz not intervened "they" would have "killed" Randy Weaver.

There is a reason some of you guys are not in charge of anything nor should be.

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Plainsman Said:

Remember bruce it was the ranchers themselves that sought the help to address over grazing.

So your saying it's sort of like a drunk that can't stop so he asks for help.  I don't know, my parents never had a problem with overgrazing.  Maybe they had more self control.  At least I know it didn't require a federal agency to help them. 

A person can;t win with you guys, First you are bitching about Mr. Bundy
NOT dealing with the govt, then you bitch when ranchers DID work with the govt.

You bitch when ranchers over graze and you bitch when they try to be better stewards.

There seems to be a pattern here!

Bruce you guys have REPEATEDLY pointed out these are govt lands, so who should these ranchers worked with to better grazing if not the Federal agency that "controls them???

 

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Plainsman Said:
Yes Bill it depends on what is is. 

but in the context "is" was used, there is only one thing it could be bruce and that is present tense.


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BringingTheRain Said:
 

gst Said:

BringingTheRain Said:
 That whole militia thing is embarrassing too under these circumstances. looked like a bunch of tacticool dudes who hate government, just wanting a reason to bring out their weapons and look badass. 

There is some of that to a degree, but there are also people that simply believe in the Constitution.

Bring me up to speed on what exactly is unconstitutional here? 

I was referencing some people's belief in the right to form a state militia that are a little less "tacticool" than those you reference.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/m/militia/

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HUNTNFISHND Said:
This Bundy guy has been breaking the law for 20 years. He has lost every legal case. Has he paid anything to the state for grazing? They should either arrest the clown or if he prefers it'll end up like Kahl. The bottom line is it's his choice.

Hunt, I will pose the same question to you I have others. If Bundy has been "breaking the law" for 20 years, why NOW arrest him? Why not 15 years ago, 10, 5?

If you were not paying taxes for 20 years and the IRS knew about it from the start, would they wait 20 years?

Why go in from the start with snipers and assault weapons on a non compliance of a regulation?

I would not be surprised if there was not a little bit of a desire for another Gordon Kahl incident, this time with the Federal agents a little better armed and ready.

I think the BLM was simply caught off guard at the immediate social media response that happened.

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Fritz you are so miss informed.. THE SNIPERS ON THE BRIDGE IN NV WERE BUNDY SNIPERS.. wow you are a  RADICAL who refuses to see and hear the TRUTH . . period end of discussion

Fritz the Cat Said:

ndraised Said:
Yea I didn't see any of the RADICAL snipers on the bridge holding pens or keyboards.. You know if you were to point a gun at cops in ND you ass would be in jail. AS IT SHOULD BE.. it is that fucking simple

Fritz the Cat Said:

ndraised Said:
Yea, you who are with mr bundy are in the wrong for taking up arms against the law...  It is that simple.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/rachel-maddow-fox-news-cliven-b...

How about a pen or a keyboard?

At the Ruby Ridge Standoff, sniper Lon Horuchi shot Mrs. Weaver right between the eyes as she was holding her daughter. What a mess. The fed/gov had a helicopter over the house with a gasoline bladder when Col. Bo Gritz intervened. He was the most highly decorated veteran from Vietnam and Randy Weaver was one of his.

He talked Randy into coming out. In the end Randy was awarded something like three million.

Had Bo Gritz not intervened "they" would have "killed" Randy Weaver.

There is a reason some of you guys are not in charge of anything nor should be.

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becuase the took LEGAL actions to try and not get too this point . . WOW you are so miss informed

gst Said:

HUNTNFISHND Said:
This Bundy guy has been breaking the law for 20 years. He has lost every legal case. Has he paid anything to the state for grazing? They should either arrest the clown or if he prefers it'll end up like Kahl. The bottom line is it's his choice.

Hunt, I will pose the same question to you I have others. If Bundy has been "breaking the law" for 20 years, why NOW arrest him? Why not 15 years ago, 10, 5?

If you were not paying taxes for 20 years and the IRS knew about it from the start, would they wait 20 years?

Why go in from the start with snipers and assault weapons on a non compliance of a regulation?

I would not be surprised if there was not a little bit of a desire for another Gordon Kahl incident, this time with the Federal agents a little better armed and ready.

I think the BLM was simply caught off guard at the immediate social media response that happened.

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ndraised, I hope you will not take offense, but I have a busy enough schedule just misinformation a couple others on here that keep posting . So please forgive me if I ignore your ramblings.

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 Plainsman, you talk about habitat destroyers, whom and what are you referring to?

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Bureau of Land Management officials in Nevada won’t say how much it might cost to round up so-called “trespass cattle” from federal land 80 miles north of Las Vegas, but at least $1 million is a pretty safe bet.

Based on a review of government contracting records, the bureau is set to pay a private livestock contractor from Utah $966,000 to collect several hundred cattle set loose on public land by Bunkerville rancher Cliven Bundy.

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Bureau of Land Management officials in Nevada won’t say how much it might cost to round up so-called “trespass cattle” from federal land 80 miles north of Las Vegas, but at least $1 million is a pretty safe bet.

Based on a review of government contracting records, the bureau is set to pay a private livestock contractor from Utah $966,000 to collect several hundred cattle set loose on public land by Bunkerville rancher Cliven Bundy.

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A little more historical background.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/rich-noyes/2014/04/17/what-networks-arent-t...

What the Networks Aren't Telling You About the Nevada Cattle Battle

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The showdown between federal authorities and rancher Cliven Bundy, his family and supporters in Nevada is one of those rare topics from the libertarian-conservative news agenda that actually made its way into the establishment media. Between last Thursday and Monday, ABC, CBS and NBC gave the story a total of nearly 16 minutes of coverage on their morning and evening newscasts.

Network journalists have consistently framed the case as one of a rancher failing to pay the requested fees for his use of government land. But they have failed to use the case to tell the larger story of how environmental rules — in this case, regulations to protect the desert tortoise, have been implemented in ways that help favored interests (land developers, or solar companies) while hurting others (cattle ranchers, for example).

The networks have focused on the amount of money the government has demanded of Cliven Bundy, and let the Bundy side talk about the government’s heavy-handed tactics in seeking collection. On Saturday’s Good Morning America, for example, ABC’s Mike Boettcher framed the story this way: “For 20 years, rancher Cliven Bundy has refused to pay rent to herd his cattle on government land, $1.1 million in grazing fees.”

The next morning on NBC, Sunday’s Today included a soundbite from Bundy’s son, Ammon, talking about the intimidating force employed by federal agents: “They had the tasers, they had the weapons, they had the dogs, and we had nothing except us. We were almost equally numbered, and then they were the aggressors.”

Omitted from the network coverage: How cattle ranchers like Bundy have been victimized by federal government plans to protect the desert tortoise, and how the current showdown was provoked by an environmentalist lawsuit. As the Las Vegas Sun explained: “Things came to a head when environmentalists threatened to sue the agency to protect the endangered desert tortoise that lives on the land where Bundy’s cattle grazed. The BLM said Bundy’s cattle trampled the tortoise’s habitat.”

In their coverage of the Nevada showdown, neither ABC nor NBC ever acknowledged the role of regulations designed to protect the tortoise, while CBS’s Teri Okita in a Friday morning report included it as an afterthought: “Authorities want the cattle off this land for another reason: Environmentalists say it’s home to the endangered desert tortoise and it’s protected land.”

In fact, the tortoise is listed as a “threatened” species, not yet “endangered,” but it’s that designation (applied in 1989) which led to restrictions on cattle ranchers’ use of land in Nevada, California and Utah. And the federal government has for decades permitted some destruction of tortoise habitats if they like the project, while cracking down on others as they see fit.

As the Powerline blog has well-documented, the BLM has enforced these rules in ways that favor projects endorsed by federal bureaucrats, such as solar projects, while being tough on the cattle ranchers.

But go back more than 20 years,
and you’ll find a similar effort in the Clinton era to sacrifice 22,000 acres of tortoise habitat to Las Vegas area land developers, even as they set up restrictions on cattle ranchers including Cliven Bundy. As the Washington Post’s Tom Kenworthy documented in a March 21, 1993 article (retrieved via Nexis, so no link):


Three years ago, with tortoise populations crashing largely because of habitat destruction across its range in Nevada, California, Arizona and Utah, the federal government added the tortoise to its list of threatened species. The designation immediately imperiled tens of millions of dollars worth of construction projects in this development-crazed city.
    
But it also triggered a novel experiment in the peaceful resolution of endangered species conflicts that is similar, in many respects, to the process Babbitt would like to try nationwide to defuse explosive development-versus-environment fights.
    
Employing a rarely used mechanism approved by Congress a decade ago, environmentalists, developers, government officials, cattlemen, miners and off-road vehicle enthusiasts began negotiating a “habitat conservation plan.” The hope was it would satisfy both the needs of the tortoise and the Las Vegas area’s rapacious appetite for development.
    
The result was a plan to protect the tortoise by providing vast tracts of federal land as a refuge while sacrificing other tortoise areas to development....
    
By mid-1991, the Fish and Wildlife Service had approved a short-term conservation plan that allows for development of about 22,000 acres of tortoise habitat in and around Las Vegas in exchange for strict conservation measures on 400,000 acres of federal Bureau of Land Management (BLM) land south of the city. The plan is funded by development fees of between $ 250 and $ 550 an acre paid by builders. Almost $ 10 million has been raised so far.

Among the conservation measures required are the elimination of livestock grazing and strict limits on off-road vehicle use in the protected tortoise habitat. Two weeks ago, the managers of the plan completed the task of purchasing grazing privileges from cattle ranchers who formerly used BLM land....
    
Cattlemen are particularly irate, and have gone to court to prevent grazing restrictions on BLM land now outside the tortoise management area, where the federal agency has tried to keep cattle from competing with tortoises for forage for three months in the spring. Ranchers like Cliven Bundy, whose family homesteaded his ranch in 1877 and who accuses the government of a “land grab,” are digging in for a fight and say they will not willingly sell their grazing privileges to create another preserve.


The Post article was written more than 21 years ago,
before Bundy had been assessed even one dime in fees, and validates his claim that his grievance is about the intrusiveness of federal rules aimed at protecting the desert tortoise, and how the government has used the rules as yet another tool to pick economic winners and losers.

It’s background and context that the networks could have provided as they picked up on the story of a rancher fighting the feds — but, sadly, was omitted from the broadcast coverage this past week.
 


Read more:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/rich-noyes/2014/04/17/what-networks-arent-telling-you-about-nevada-cattle-battle#ixzz2zF0Btrp2

It is certainly seeming like people such as plainsman have much more in common with the liberals like those within the Clinton and Obama administrations that are implementing plans to remove grazing cattle from these lands than they do the conservative ideals of stranding up to an over reaching govt. .

So when grazing is removed from these Federal lands in the West that were engrossed under multiple use contracts, (remember for every one private acre there are 2 Federal acres in some states or over 3 in Nevada's case), what other private businesses will remain viable in these areas?

Perhaps schools teaching Chinese interpreters and solar panel manufacturing companies.

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HUNTNFISHND Said:
This Bundy guy has been breaking the law for 20 years. He has lost every legal case. Has he paid anything to the state for grazing? They should either arrest the clown or if he prefers it'll end up like Kahl. The bottom line is it's his choice.

He has tried to pay the state and the county it appears and they have not taken his payments.

Go back and read the article in the above post from 1993. Note the following.

"Employing a rarely used mechanism approved by Congress a decade ago, environmentalists, developers, government officials, cattlemen, miners and off-road vehicle enthusiasts began negotiating a “habitat conservation plan.” The hope was it would satisfy both the needs of the tortoise and the Las Vegas area’s rapacious appetite for development.
    
The result was a plan to protect the tortoise by providing vast tracts of federal land as a refuge while sacrificing other tortoise areas to development....

Among the conservation measures required are the elimination of livestock grazing and strict limits on off-road vehicle use in the protected tortoise habitat. Two weeks ago, the managers of the plan completed the task of purchasing grazing privileges from cattle ranchers who formerly used BLM land....

Clive Bundy refused to take the FEDERAL govt's "take it or else" offer to "eliminate" his grazing rights.

Even after engaging in "negotiations" these ranchers were still forced off these lands.

It is NOT about the payment of these fees to graze these lands, because the BLM has no intention of allowing grazing on these lands, (it is why they were destroying water systems)

It is about the breaking of the multiple use contracts that these lands have stood under for generations so other  forms of development can occur.

Should he have gone to district court to fight this, possibly so, but remember the district court judge that dimissed the case against Harvey Whitmore who was convicted of illegal campaign contributions to Harry Reid the very same day he was convicted and perhaps one can see How Mr Bundy would wonder how much "justice" would have been granted in a court such as this?

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I believe somebody owes gst a steak dinner.

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Fritz and gst one more frigging time!!!!! Bundy has lost his case in court, he had by court summary no documentation to support his claims. His refusal to pay fees removed any rights to use of the land or any input as to affected use of the land. HE SCREWED HIMSELF!!!!!!

The changes in use or policy that the BLM has undertaken also has been looked at by the courts in the Bundy case and it was found he had no standing to challenge them because he was not and is not legally using the land and is not eligible to use the land because of his own actions!!!!

You want to mix up the events of late in regards to the solar and tortoise changes and imply that Bundy is being wronged and denied use as a result of those when in reality his issues date back 20 years!!!

To keep implying that the solar an tortoise issue are related to Bundy is a flat out lie as I have said before and to continue to make that claim is a repeat of the lie!!!!!

I am not defending the BLM action in any way just trying to point out the attempt to lie about the events as they relate to Bundy.

So if you can stop your lying for a bit and discuss the changes by the BLM in regards to the solar and development without insinuating that this has a bearing on Bundy fine but to keep implying that it has bearing on Bundy is a continuation of the lie!!!!!!!!!!

So again gst I have addressed why I am calling you a bold faced liar one more time and it is very simple to follow and understand.

Your hero in his own words says he recognizes NV law which by its constitution recognizes the fact that the BLM owns the land in question. NOT THE STATE OF NV!!

He has to this point not appealed his most recent loss and his cattle as a result are trespassing on Fed land without payment and is responsible if he is not willing to remove them the cost incurred to have them removed.

One can debate if the bid amount to do so is excessive and one can debate the changes made by the BLM as being correct or not, but neither of these issues have any bearing on Bundy's case that he has attempted to win,

So are you going to keep repeatedly lying about Bundy's situation or are you going to have the balls to man up and admit that these are separate issues with no bearing on Bundy??????

You keep asking why I call you a dumb ass well your continued lies are why!!!!

I know it bothers you to no end to have facts rip your bull shit apart because you like to overload everything with unrelated bullshit and imply things to bolster your propaganda but I and others have demonstrated the time line and facts vs your fiction on your claims.

So one more time the solar and tortoise issues have nothing whatsoever any affect on Bundy's claims and are events and actions that post date the time frame that Bundy has legal standing for!!!
 

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Among the conservation measures required are the elimination of livestock grazing

It's public land why should grazing be the number one priority.  Actually I would prefer grazing to many other things, but public land belongs to that rancher, and the other millions of people in this nation too.  When one rancher wants something and a thousand people wan something different the writing is on the wall.  This isn't his land, and evidently grazing is ending.  He should have taken the buy out.  Now he has nothing. 

aba asked:  Plainsman, you talk about habitat destroyers, whom and what are you referring to?

Those who take everything they can from the land with no regard for future generations.  Natural lands and agricultural lands.  Some not even considering their own children and grandchildren. 
One thing that always confused me was when I worked walking many mile a day and looking at private and public land.  The private land was near always  in better shape.  Much of it in much better shape than the public land.  Then when checking finding that the public land was grazed by the same landowner.  That landowner complained about public land not being worth it, but he had the grazing rights in his family for over 100 years.  The mentality that I encountered was "it's government land, I paid for the grass, and I'm going to get every spear because it's mine".  Then they are the same person grazing next year.  They don't do that to their private land.  I don't understand why the don't see for themselves that they are doing it to themselves.
The sheep pastures in Wyoming were the worst.  Actually the worst was Bates Hole in the north end of the Shirley Basin.  I'm guessing it wasn't that good to begin with and is perhaps in recovery now.  It's been grazed for a long time because many of the hills have stone cairns for the herders to sit in the shade.  I would guess much of the damage is historic, but the federal agencies allow to many animals on some land or the rancher is putting more on than he pays for. 

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Plains,

That is what everyone has been trying to tell you for ions. Private land looks better then public. Private houses look better then public housing, private bathrooms look better then public ones etc. etc.

We in ND certainly don't want "more" headaches "more" public land. You just said it.

Thank you thank you thank you

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Fritz I would not assume that the people of ND do not want more public land, you may not want it but unless you have a respected poll stating that do not assume so. I do not know if the people of ND want more or not and do not hold the arrogance to claim so.

It must be really frustrating to have what you all assumed to be a great publicity issue blow up in your collective faces. I spent the evening at a birthday party among ranchers and farmers and some of the ranchers run cattle in the Sandhills on Gov land. Only one of the dozen hold any sympathy for Bundy. The rest collectively felt he was wrong has had his day in court and is a black eye to paraphrase the sentiment.

Terms like thief, crook, land grabber, arrogant fool, stupid, idiot just to name a few of the terms that they used to describe him. They also where upset with his armed supporters whom they thought even less of.

On the other hand all of them felt the BLM had issues and that Congress should reign them in on the over reach and that is the proper course of action. Many of them have had dealing with Gov agencies in regards to use and changes etc.. on the pastures or hayland they rent. Not always to their liking. but all but one said you have choices and none of those choices included continued use without paying for the use.

The longer this goes and the more Bundy speaks and the real facts get out, the more damage this moron is doing to people who are being wronged. Public support and opinions are quickly turning against them as a result of Bundy and his minions. A good number of them where really shocked as well at your and Gabes comments, especially Gabes attempt to cloud the issue with outright likes via insinuation. They all read my responses to this as well, smart phones handy. So take what I am saying as this! They broke down the issues much as I had in my postings!

Support the right thing on this, and drop the Bundy angle. It is hurting more than helping. Especially since the facts are simply a finger tip away on a keyboard!!

The best comment of the night was a back and forth between a recently retired farmer and his renter. The renter said hey thanks for renting me your land. Now I get to farm it free for 20 years !!!! That caused a good deal of laughter!!!

Fun night, lots of talk or what the spring outlook is, when frost will come out, soil temps, moisture levels.Concerns about fertilizer and fuel, some talk of the new farm bill and even talk about the attempted railroad of the Ag commissioner by FB!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Ron,

I liked Wayne Hage and have met some of his family members. Good people.

Bundy????

Yesterday on the national news, dingy Harry called Bundy as his people domestic terrorists.

Maybe Nevada will finally vote Harry Reid out. Wouldn't that be nice?

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Terms like thief, crook, land grabber, arrogant fool, stupid, idiot just to name a few of the terms that they used to describe him. They also where upset with his armed supporters whom they thought even less of.

Thank you Hardwater man for posting this.  It restores my faith in the average farmer/rancher after Fritz and gst have done so much to destroy  it.    I am very serious it restored my original thoughts about them when it was decaying each day debating the "we are God's gift to humanity" bs we read on here.   I hope your farmer/rancher friends to read this and understand how much we appreciate their honesty.  God bless them. 

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Fritz I have read a good deal on the Hage Family never met them but they seem like good people and the son, damn smart. They are the type of people that need to be the faces that promote the push for change. I support their claims and wish them well in the next round against the Gov.

Dirty harry is exactly that, while I disliked Dashle and his party, to me he was not the corrupt dealer that Reid was.

There needs to be a push to look into his dealings with the Chinnese and the nepotism as well. It will not happen though when Bundy is the catalyst to promote that type of action.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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 Bundy is an idiot. Seriously he has a screw loose. The land was never his or the states. This would be like me renting land from someone else and they decide to stop renting to me and do something else with the land only I just keep squatting on it. Can't believe there are clowns that actually stick up for him.

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Hardwaterman Said:
Fritz I have read a good deal on the Hage Family never met them but they seem like good people and the son, damn smart. They are the type of people that need to be the faces that promote the push for change. I support their claims and wish them well in the next round against the Gov.

Dirty harry is exactly that, while I disliked Dashle and his party, to me he was not the corrupt dealer that Reid was.

There needs to be a push to look into his dealings with the Chinnese and the nepotism as well. It will not happen though when Bundy is the catalyst to promote that type of action.

How did your friends feel about the feds coming in and kicking these ranchers(Bundy is just the last one) off the land in the name of the tortoise or for "other uses" connected to dirty politics.  That is the big issue.  It takes a really small person to just say he is a deadbeat because he quit paying his grazing fees.  Look at the big picture.  Heavy handed government going along with radical environmental agenda and political cronyism.  How about the blm siding with wild horses and donkeys over ranchers?  Did they talk about that or just the fact he quit paying?  

2nd topic,  ask your buddies how they would feel if they were in this situation...I'd bet they would change their f-ing tune.  Imagine the government designating your buddies land as "sacred Indian land" or you use your imagination and come up with another concocted scenario....and they take the land.  Come on hardwaterman....ask them my questions and see what they think

  http://misguidedchildren.com/domestic-affairs/2014/04/red-river-rumble-b...

 

red river

The Red River is the boundary between Texas and Oklahoma…or is it?

Byers, Texas along the Red River — The BLM stole 140 acres of the Tommy Henderson ranch thirty  years ago. They took his land and paid him absolutely nothing. He sued and lost. Now  the BLM is using that court case as precedent to do it again. The problem is, the land they want to seize is property that  ranchers  have a deed for and have paid taxes on for over a hundred years.

The BLM claims that about 90,000 acres (116 miles along the Red River) have never belonged to Texas in the first place. They will seize the land and it will seriously change the boundaries between the two states.

Avulsion verses Accretion

 

Since 1803 when the Louisiana Purchase was completed, there has been a controversy over the boundary between Oklahoma and Texas. The boundary is supposed to be the vegetation line on the south side of the Red River. But the River has moved over time. The problem is the definition of that boundary line- Oklahoma and Texas each use different semantics to define it. And the BLM is finding ways to use the disputed words to give them the ability to seize the  land.

According to the BLM, the Red River is always Accretion (gradual accumulation of sediment) to the south, and always Avulsion             (rapid formation of a new river channel) to the north.  So according to the BLM, the boundary only moves one direction, never in the direction that favors the ranchers. They are looking to re-draw the entire portion of the Red River boundary. That includes 90,000 acres of land along a 116 mile stretch of the river.

“BLM officials believe they have a responsibility to manage land they believe is federal which includes an estimated 90,000 acres along 116 miles of the Red River. If land is found to be public, BLM officials say they have three options: leave the land open, closed, or open with limitations.” January 2014

Public input ignored?

Pages: 1 2

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French."  Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
 -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

 

 

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E.Springers Said:
Gst... you have stooped to new lows in your unwillingness to acknowledge fellow ranchers and farmers are capable of being wrong. This mother fucker doesn't own the land, doesn't recognize the us government, can't prove his water rights, has lost his court battles, refuses to appeal cause he knows he will lose, thumbs his nose at the order to get his cows off someone else's property, won't pay his debt and then takes up arms against the authorities who are attempting to enforce a legal court order using women as human shields. These aren't jim crow laws and he ain't np Rosa parks or martin Luther king.... he is a fucking god damn terrorist and a criminal and if he gets a bullet in the head, he deserves it. I can't believe even you have tried to defend him for 12 pages... its a new low for the defender of all things ag...

Desperately trying to stay away and at the same time desperately trying to get kicked off.

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cynical, are you like gabe and have a reading comprehension problem as well? I stated clearly that they feel that Congress needs to reign in the over reach by them, but unlike you, they realize that this is where the fix has to come or from the courts.

It changes nothing in regards to Bundy and his poor choices that created the mess he put himself in.

So you want to pee in their oatmeal and defend and champion Bundy go right ahead, because it is not going to garner any support to put restraint and controls back in place on the BLM or other Gov. agencies that are doing the bidding of the current administration.

If you are as dense as Gabe and cannot see this and see then rant away all you want. None of what they have possibly done wrong makes what Bundy and the armed idiots are attempting right!!

As I said to Fritz put the right face forward to get the public support for change, stop parading Bundy and the armed supporters as the face of the change you desire. It fall flat even with people that are more inclined to have supporting views!!!

The issue you have listed is worth exposing, sharing and seeking correct answers to. So are the proposed rule changes the EPA is seeking regarding waterways. All of that are worth exposing to the light of day and people both ag and non ag related can and would and will support the rights of landowners. BUT KEEP USING BUNDY AND IT WILL BE YOUR OATMEAL THAT GETS DOUSED!!!!!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Hey Plainsman,

Trying to find a silver lining in here.

Let's say Bundy gets bucked off his horse and is gone tomorrow, but the voters in Nevada are finally fed up with dingy Harry and they vote him out, would that be a bad thing?

Would we you to put you on suicide watch because one of your hero's of conservation was gone from Washington DC?

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Fritz lets forget about Bundy and hope they vote the crook out. He is an exploiter nothing more. I do not see him as a champion of conservation, far from it.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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