Nevada BLM actions background

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Some earlier comments Bruce.

Plainsman Said:
There were perhaps some people who supported the Unibomber too, but they were smart enough not to put it on the internet.   We will do a disservice to supporting the second amendment if were going to support nut jobs like those in Nevada.  Bundy and his ilk are not standing up for their rights, they are trying to get something for nothing which in my book looked like armed robbery.  They need to go to the prison mental ward. 

Plainsman Said:
The site the Chinese wanted was over 200 miles south of Bundy's ranch.

It certainly seems the BLM was originally created in response to a request by the ranchers them selves to help better manage these lands for grazing and increase productivity.

Sort of like hunters asking for game wardens to control the slobs the ranchers who knew what was happening had to ask for some control of their slob ranchers.  Most should have seen the blowing soil and known the damage they were causing.  I have personally seen a lot of overgrazing on public lands.  For two years I walked eight to ten miles every summer looking at public land from Denver to the Canadian border.  I think many of he cuts are just bringing grazing back to reasonable levels. 

Indeed bruce you would believe the removal of 52 of 53 previously and now the final one is "reasonable levels.

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Plainsman Said:
Bundy on television says it takes 320 acres to support a cow.  If land is that poor I don't think it should be grazed at all.  Remember gst's post about the BLM was supposed to help ranchers, and the article showed sheep in Wyoming.  The land had been grazed far beyond capacity.  When I visited the Great Bend area of Texas this winter and read the history of grazing there it was an eye opener.  It's been 100+ years and the land has not recovered.  No acknowledgement of a decade of one of the most sevre droughts in history, just kick the ranchers of and stop grazing.
I think the BLM was started to manage federal lands not help ranchers, although they did.  I think their main purpose was to keep ranchers from destroying the land like they did in Great Bend Texas.

even after proof of why the BLM was formed you denied it Bruce.
I don't understand how a cow can live on land that requires 320 acres to feed her.  Do they sprint from grass spear to grass spear?  Energetics should come into play here and I don't see where the intake would meet the output if grass clumps are so far apart that a cow burns more energy getting to the next clump of grass than she gets out of it.  I would say it's time to shut down the grazing on that allotment tortoise or no tortoise. 

You certainly seem, to "support grazing these lands" here plainsman.

you have no direct factual knowledge about this and yet you are quick to
"shut down grazing"
 

If you would like I can keep going, but I think most can judge the sincerity of your claims you "support" grazing of the public lands.

Credibility

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Plainsman Said:

.  I could go on for pages why I think grazing should be allowed,

Plainsman Said:
.  I would say it's time to shut down the grazing on that allotment tortoise or no tortoise.

Plainsman Said:

, but when people have an agenda counter to the people they are trying to deceive they will pay no attention. 

 I really don;t have to say much bruce, your own words belie your claims.

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gst you take comments out of context to build on.  For example I say I support grazing and you quote where I said the grazing on that allotment should be shut down.  Then you say my own words prove bla bla bla. 

I don't suppose you can understand, but I'll try explain it to you.  On pasture land that will take 50 acres per AUM I think grazing is ok.  On 10 acres per AUM they should be grazing it.  Now you will say what about 11 acres.  Please don't get that stupid.  On land that takes 320 acres no one should be grazing.

Do you remember that picture you posted of the overgrazing in Wyoming?  Well that was perhaps 320 acres per AUM.  Don't graze it.  Remember I said capacity grazing.  That's why those agencies have range specialists.  Remember now they had those to help ranchers you said. 

I didn't say I didn't read things gst.  It's just that your propaganda isn't worth reading, especially when you post a dozen and they are half a page long.  I suppose this will trigger your insanity and you will post another 14 posts with no responses.  Why don't you try being worth talking to instead of thinking ranchers are perfect.   Actually that would be bearable if it wasn't that you think if your not a rancher your crap.

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 Plainsman Said:

On land that takes 320 acres no one should be grazing. 

Why???

How about 319 acres per AUM?  No.
How about 318 acres per AUM?
Etc., etc., etc.

Where is the study that says that no grazing should be done if the land requires 320 acres per AUM and at what acreage per AUM does it allow grazing?

Steve.

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Plainsman Said:
gst you take comments out of context to build on.  For example I say I support grazing and you quote where I said the grazing on that allotment should be shut down.  Then you say my own words prove bla bla bla. 

I don't suppose you can understand, but I'll try explain it to you.  On pasture land that will take 50 acres per AUM I think grazing is ok.  On 10 acres per AUM they should be grazing it.  Now you will say what about 11 acres.  Please don't get that stupid.  On land that takes 320 acres no one should be grazing.

Do you remember that picture you posted of the overgrazing in Wyoming?  Well that was perhaps 320 acres per AUM.

  How do you know this??? Do you have any proof of your claim? How do you know were that picture actually was? Perhaps it was a file picture of sheep on a holding area. What do you actually know about some picture you are using to defend your claims of when there should or should not be grazing.

Plasinamn how many cattle have been produced on these lands over the century plus  these ranching families have been running cattle on them? Are you now claiming all these people that entered into an agreement with the govt for multiple usage of these lands are just screwed? You are starting to shed a little light on why someone would say screw the govt.

Don't graze it.  Remember I said capacity grazing.  That's why those agencies have range specialists.  Remember now they had those to help ranchers you said. 

And those "range specialist that were actually considering the range and not radical enviromental groups threats of law suits of Sen. and Chinese land developments had cattle grazing on the lands YOU claim there should be none. Are you a "range specialist" bruce??

I didn't say I didn't read things gst. 


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"This has spread out into what looks like six different debatable things.  So many and some posts so long I have not read them."

It's just that your propaganda isn't worth reading,
Ah, the argument from page 2 of the liberal  handbook,  if you have no facts to dispute the information being provided and the information that has been provided has proven your claims to be so much bullshit, attack the information as propaganda and the person presenting it as an elitist.

What exactly was propaganda not worth reading Bruce? The articles that proved that the Feds killed cattle despite your claims that that statement was a lie?

The articles straight from the BLM website that proved what the BLM was originally started for despite your claims otherwise?

How about the article right from the BLM website that spoke about "regional mitigation despite your insistance that the distance made those claims bullshit.

You and ron seem to have the same problem bruce, if it is not something YOU believe to be fact, it can;t be fact.

especially when you post a dozen and they are half a page long.  I suppose this will trigger your insanity and you will post another 14 posts with no responses.  Why don't you try being worth talking to instead of thinking ranchers are perfect.   Actually that would be bearable if it wasn't that you think if your not a rancher your crap.

Bruce have you provided one single link to any source of information so people can decide on their own what is fact and what is "propoganda??

Credibility Bruce.

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 gst Said:


Plainsman Said:

I sure would like to see the document that says Bureau of Land Management was formed to help ranchers.

Here you go plainsman. Please note the emboldened and enlarged poritons from the BLM's own site on the history section that answers your question.

My apologies for the length, but if anyone has any interest, take the time to read this.

Interesting read that can open your eyes if you wish to open them as to what has changed over time with the BLM and how these lands are managed.

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

A Brief History of Public Lands Grazing

During the era of homesteading, Western public rangelands were often overgrazed because of policies designed to promote the settlement of the West and a lack of understanding of these arid ecosystems. In response to requests from Western ranchers, Congress passed the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 (named after Rep. Edward Taylor of Colorado), which led to the creation of grazing districts in which grazing use was apportioned and regulated. Under the Taylor Grazing Act, the first grazing district to be established was Wyoming Grazing District Number 1 on March 23, 1935. Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes created a Division of Grazing within the Department to administer the grazing districts; this division later became the U.S. Grazing Service and was headquartered in Salt Lake City. In 1946, as a result of a government reorganization by the Truman Administration, the Grazing Service was merged with the General Land Office to become the Bureau of Land Management. 

Sheep grazing near Worland, Wyoming, in 1940.

 

Plaisnamn said:
"Do you remember that picture you posted of the overgrazing in Wyoming?  Well that was perhaps 320 acres per AUM.  Don't graze it.  Remember I said capacity grazing.  That's why those agencies have range specialists.  Remember now they had those to help ranchers you said" end quote

plainsman, here is the picture you reference. Drawing on all your "range land specialist" experience, please share with us why this picture represents overgrazing as you claim and how you determine it is 320 AUMs. ?

I hope the real "range land specialists" are a little better informed , a lot less biased and use a little better formula than you do before they end all grazing on these lands.

 

 

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plainsman a little more "propoganda for you.

http://www.landsofwyoming.com/wyoming/land-for-sale/2321-acres-in-Washak...

BLM Grazing Permit
65,000 +/- acres (864 AUMs) South Gooseberry
125,00 +/- acres (2,044 AUMs) North Gooseberry

Bruce the BLM says this is 75 and 61 acres./ AUM land. It is located near Worland Wy. just as the land in the picture was.

according to you this land should not be used for grazing.

Plainsman Said:

Do you remember that picture you posted of the overgrazing in Wyoming?  Well that was perhaps 320 acres per AUM.  Don't graze it.  Remember I said capacity grazing.  That's why those agencies have range specialists.  Remember now they had those to help ranchers you said. 

Credibility.

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How do you know were that picture actually was?

Because right under the picture it says:

Sheep grazing near Worland, Wyoming, in 1940.

I like to take one thing at a time so I don't let you confuse me with your bs.  So that's my response this time.

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gst Said:
Lou Dobbs is apparently a "dumbass" as well.

But  listen to the tid bit that is revealed at 3.55 in the following video.

It seems the judge that has ruled against Mr. Bundy was approved for a position on the Supreme Court by Sen. Reid.

Ok,  Dana just may be my new favorite media hottie. 

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French."  Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
 -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

 

 

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Plainsman Said:

How do you know were that picture actually was?

Because right under the picture it says:

Sheep grazing near Worland, Wyoming, in 1940.

I like to take one thing at a time so I don't let you confuse me with your bs.  So that's my response this time.

Really, you bothered to read that much? 

bruce, just admit it, you really have no idea of anything other than a caption.

Okay, so we have established you can read, lets hear how you know EXACTLY  where this was, if it was along a road at a ranch where sheep were being held in a lambing pasture or if it was near a working facility on the range somewhere.

Most importantly bruce how can you tell from a 70 year old picture that the lands that that many sheep were being grazed on were over grazed?

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cynical Said:

gst Said:
Lou Dobbs is apparently a "dumbass" as well.

But  listen to the tid bit that is revealed at 3.55 in the following video.

It seems the judge that has ruled against Mr. Bundy was approved for a position on the Supreme Court by Sen. Reid.

Ok,  Dana just may be my new favorite media hottie. 

I wonder if old hardwaterman would spout off to Dana calling her a "dumbass" for her belief there is something more here than fees and tortoises  if he had the chance??

I might even pay to see that!

I mean the fact old Handy Harry was fluffing up the Judge that ruled against Mr Bundy for a seat on the SCOTUS   is just a coincidence of chance on Sen Reids spotless record of impropriety.

And mean while plainsamn is distracted by AUMs and range specialists.

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Speaking of AUM's. Supposedly one bovine needs about 320 acres in that area. One f-ing cow per 320 acres is gonna bother a damn tortoise? Really. What proof of that do they have? Also, "they" don't seem to be worried about the 40,000 wild horses and donkeys running around NV. What a damn sham.

What "they" should do is reduce Bundy's heard by 10 critters and mitigate the proposed solar power plant field or whatever they call it with a coal fired power plant which would have a much smaller foot print. :)

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French."  Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
 -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

 

 

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A really interesting read on the Hage fight. 

The situation came to a head in Feb., 1991, when David Grider, Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest district ranger, canceled Hage’s livestock grazing permit altogether on fabricated charges of overgrazing and “trespassing cattle on public lands.”

Driven into the ground financially, his grazing permits cancelled, Hage had no choice “but to sell the cattle and the land for whatever I could and hope that I could get out of there with the shirt on my back.”

SWAT Those Cowboys!

That July the Forest Service brought in the big guns – literally.

While Hage and his work crew (which included 15-year-old Wayne, Jr.), were out on the range rounding up cattle, “the USFS came in: automatic weapons, flack jackets, snipers – the whole works – as if we were dangerous criminals. The USFS confiscated over a hundred head of my cattle at gun point. But when they tried to sell them, no one in Nevada would buy them because they knew they were stolen. The Forest Service, a federal agency, was engaged in cattle rustling! They had stolen my cattle and were trying to steal my land as well.”

On Sept. 26, 1991, the Hages filed a “taking” case in the U.S. Court of Federal Claims, demanding just compensation for the property taken, as provided by the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

www.newswithviews.com/NWV-News/news50.htm

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pber, perhaps that is why Wayne Hage whom ron and bruce hold up as an example of being right (only after learning the facts) was there supporting Clive Bundys fight against the very same govt over reach he dealt with firsthand.

From a Fox news report.
WAYNE HAGE, RANCHER:" Most the people here are not ranchers, they are city people that are just fed up with it as well. And that is amazing to me that the American people finally stood up and said we have had enough of this federal government overreach and we are not going to take it any longer."

The BLM's response. "“After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially,”"

And like the typical Federal govt, the latest report is over $3,000,000.000 spent trying to collect at most (dependent on facts) a $1,000,000.00 debt.

Indeed they must "protect" the taxpayers finances along with the desert tortoise they are euthanizing by the hundreds.

And yet some claim this Federal entity can better "manage" these lands than the states.

Funny/disgusting how they expect the state residents to pay their Federal taxes so they can waste them like this and yet claim they are acting to protect the "taxpayers" investments.

.


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pber,

To date, that is the most accurate account of the way it went down. Noticed this part in the article:



Seismic Shift

What the Hages and hundreds of ranching families across the 17 western states had yet to come to grips with was that under pressure from environmental groups there had been a seismic shift in philosophy and policy at the major federal land agencies – the Forest Service, Park Service, and the Bureau of Land Management. Cattle grazing, mining, and timber cutting were “out.” Hunting, fishing, hiking and assorted recreational uses were “in”. This translated into a concerted effort by the rank and file within those agencies to end such economic activities as ranching and mining and logging. In this they were aided and abetted by various environmental groups – the National Wildlife Federation, Sierra Club and the like.

Cattle out....hunting in. This is a hunt and fish web-forum. So why wouldn't most here think taking from the Hage's and giving to them, be a good idea? The National Willdife Federation is a sportsmens club right? ....Wrong.

They are a controlled opposition group. A surrogate of the fed/gov. First they get sportsmen to back their plans and then when they got what they want they double cross. It says in the above assorted recreational uses are "in".

Today the Blue Ribbon Coalition is fighting with the National Wildlife Federation in Nevada because the NWF is trying to get every Off Road Vehicle (ATV) banned from driving across anything under their control. Sportsmens groups are actually falling into line because they go along with the claim that ATV's make noise pollution.

Pit one group against the other until the wildlerness designation. Everybody keep out.

What many do not know is the national Wildlife Federation is one of the biggys that brought the Clean Water Wildlife Parks Petition to North Dakota. At the Democrat State Convention the Clean Parks Petitioners had a booth. They packed up early because no one was signing.

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desert tortoise they are euthanizing by the hundreds

I need a reliable source before I can believe that.  So far it just sounds like children crying wolf. 

until the wildlerness designation. Everybody keep out.

That's not true.  You can hunt, fish, camp and many other things in wilderness areas. 

The National Willdife Federation is a sportsmens club right? ....Wrong.

There are many small towns in North Dakota with Wildlife clubs that are affiliated with the Wildlife Federation.  In my home town most are farmers.  In Jamestown the Wildlife Federation and United Sportsmen are the two largest clubs. 

I think were all going to have to wait for the emotions to cool down and more facts come out.  Right now we have people saying don't stop grazing for a turtle.  Tortoise are not turtles.  I keep wondering what their main food source is and if that's the reason for the removal of cattle.  I guess those things will come to light when calmer minds prevail. 

Edit:  I just googled desert tortoise conservation center.  I see part of their problem is they have been overwhelmed by taking in tortoise that people don't want anymore.  Even up here in North Dakota people have adopted tortoise.  Once the thrill wares off they are looking for places to dump them.  Most that come in are sick.  I think most of the euthanizing we read about are those tortoise that are not going to make it anyway.  At least that's what I can find trying to look at the other side of the story.  

I see desert tortoise eat grass.  I was looking to see if Eurotia lanata was important in their diet because in western states cows eat it also.  I hope once the dust of insanity settles we get some level headed answers. 

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gst Said:
pber, perhaps that is why Wayne Hage whom ron and bruce hold up as an example of being right (only after learning the facts) was there supporting Clive Bundys fight against the very same govt over reach he dealt with firsthand.

From a Fox news report.
WAYNE HAGE, RANCHER:" Most the people here are not ranchers, they are city people that are just fed up with it as well. And that is amazing to me that the American people finally stood up and said we have had enough of this federal government overreach and we are not going to take it any longer."

The BLM's response. "“After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially,”"

And like the typical Federal govt, the latest report is over $3,000,000.000 spent trying to collect at most (dependent on facts) a $1,000,000.00 debt.

Indeed they must "protect" the taxpayers finances along with the desert tortoise they are euthanizing by the hundreds.

And yet some claim this Federal entity can better "manage" these lands than the states.

Funny/disgusting how they expect the state residents to pay their Federal taxes so they can waste them like this and yet claim they are acting to protect the "taxpayers" investments.

.


The difference gst is that Hage won his court battle and Bundy lost.  Can't you understand that or don't facts matter when they don't support your opinion?  Second, because of Bundy's criminal behavior and not complying with the court's orders he is wasting more of the people's tax money.  You're acting like a typical liberal with a victim mentality.

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Plainsman wrote,

There are many small towns in North Dakota with Wildlife clubs that are affiliated with the Wildlife Federation.

Many??? How many? Got a list? We're talking a more current list. Not an old list where a town hasn't been active for ten years or more. The NDWF is almost on life support. What real sportsmen need to do is join and then vote the activists out.

  In my home town most are farmers.  In Jamestown the Wildlife Federation and United Sportsmen are the two largest clubs. 

Most are farmers. Psh!!!

David Alan Brandt federal biologist for the northern prairie wildlife research center (USGS) in Jamestown is the president of the Stutsmans County wildlife federation and past president of the NDWF.

The present president of the NDWF is Mike McEnore, retired federal biologist USFWS and lobbyist for the wildlife society. 

Vote them out. The trouble is they would have to be replaced and somebody would have to volunteer. Plainsman, you volunteer your time here and nodakouthouse all day everyday. You sit in your hidey hole and post. Nodak is a dying web-forum. The NDWF is too. Some of you old activists need to be replaced. 

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Plainsman Said:

desert tortoise they are euthanizing by the hundreds

I need a reliable source before I can believe that.  So far it just sounds like children crying wolf. 

until the wildlerness designation. Everybody keep out.

That's not true.  You can hunt, fish, camp and many other things in wilderness areas. 

The National Willdife Federation is a sportsmens club right? ....Wrong.

There are many small towns in North Dakota with Wildlife clubs that are affiliated with the Wildlife Federation.  In my home town most are farmers.  In Jamestown the Wildlife Federation and United Sportsmen are the two largest clubs. 

Like Dick Monson right?

I think were all going to have to wait for the emotions to cool down and more facts come out.  Good one Bruce, you have 18 pages of "facts" backed up with the links of where they have came from and they are not good enough for you.  Right now we have people saying don't stop grazing for a turtle.  Tortoise are not turtles.  I keep wondering what their main food source is and if that's the reason for the removal of cattle.  I guess those things will come to light when calmer minds prevail. 

Bruce it took me a total of less than 1 minute to find this with the very same google you claim to be using.

http://www.infowars.com/report-desert-tortoise-greatly-benefits-from-bun...

https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/rangelands/article/viewFile/...

Edit:  I just googled desert tortoise conservation center.  I see part of their problem is they have been overwhelmed by taking in tortoise that people don't want anymore.  Even up here in North Dakota people have adopted tortoise.  Once the thrill wares off they are looking for places to dump them.  Most that come in are sick.  I think most of the euthanizing we read about are those tortoise that are not going to make it anyway.  At least that's what I can find trying to look at the other side of the story.  

I see desert tortoise eat grass.  I was looking to see if Eurotia lanata was important in their diet because in western states cows eat it also.  I hope once the dust of insanity settles we get some level headed answers. 

plainsman if you  took the time to "google" information about tortoises, why did you not google information about how they have been euthanised.

Just becasue you don;t want to beleive things becasue they blow holes in your claims does not mena they are childrens stories.

http://www.browse-search.com/?st=ds&q=desert+tortoises+being+eutahnized.''

Take your pick Bruce.

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Longshot Said:

gst Said:
pber, perhaps that is why Wayne Hage whom ron and bruce hold up as an example of being right (only after learning the facts) was there supporting Clive Bundys fight against the very same govt over reach he dealt with firsthand.

From a Fox news report.
WAYNE HAGE, RANCHER:" Most the people here are not ranchers, they are city people that are just fed up with it as well. And that is amazing to me that the American people finally stood up and said we have had enough of this federal government overreach and we are not going to take it any longer."

The BLM's response. "“After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially,”"

And like the typical Federal govt, the latest report is over $3,000,000.000 spent trying to collect at most (dependent on facts) a $1,000,000.00 debt.

Indeed they must "protect" the taxpayers finances along with the desert tortoise they are euthanizing by the hundreds.

And yet some claim this Federal entity can better "manage" these lands than the states.

Funny/disgusting how they expect the state residents to pay their Federal taxes so they can waste them like this and yet claim they are acting to protect the "taxpayers" investments.

.

The difference gst is that Hage won his court battle and Bundy lost.  Can't you understand that or don't facts matter when they don't support your opinion?  Second, because of Bundy's criminal behavior and not complying with the court's orders he is wasting more of the people's tax money.  You're acting like a typical liberal with a victim mentality.

Enter another plainsman disciple from nodak.

longshot, were you aware that the judge that ruled against Clive Bundy was invited to DC and was being promoted for a seat on the SCOTUS by Sen. Reid?

Now I know you will instantly come to the defense of this judge, but given Reid's history of fraud and manipulation of the sytem, could the possibility of impropriety exist in this judicial ruling?

Can you tell us if this judge looked at the Hage case in making his ruling?

longshot, what would have happened if the BLM had just placed a lien on the cattle Mr. Bundy owned?

It seems like after allowing 20 years of non payment and non action such as this to collect the fees if they did have the legal standing from the judges ruling, one could logically conclude that the expenditure of over $3 million to collect $1 million is not a good responsible protection of the tax payers monies the BLM seems worried about.

longshot, how much does it cost to file a lien?

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Plainsman Said:
There are many small towns in North Dakota with Wildlife clubs that are affiliated with the Wildlife Federation.  In my home town most are farmers.  In Jamestown the Wildlife Federation and United Sportsmen are the two largest clubs. 

Plainsman Said:
I need a reliable source before I can believe that.  So far it just sounds like children crying wolf. 

http://ndwf.org/AffiliatedClubs/tabid/76/Default.aspx

12 affiliated clubs. "many"???????

How many are active? How many still exist?

Bottineau Wildlife Club?????

Plainsman Said:
There are many small towns in North Dakota with Wildlife clubs.  In my home town most are farmers

And yet you never cease to claim agriculture is anti sportsman and anti wildlife.

But hey back to the subject of grazing these lands, Bruce, what is the National Wildlife Federations that these clubs are affiliated with thru the state affiliation, policies on grazing CRP and other Federal lands?

Didn;t they file a lawsuit thru the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals to block grazing on CRP lands bruce??
 
http://www.nwf.org/News-and-Magazines/Media-Center/News-by-Topic/Wildlif...
You claim to be pro grazing, yet support wildlife orgs thru affiliation that are not.

You refuse to acknowledge what was pointed out in the post pber and fritz shared that there is a focused collaborative effort to remove grazing from these lands

Instead you dismiss any evidence of this movement as "propaganda".

Credibility

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Here you go Plainsmain.  I will cut and paste this from the article I posted so you don't have to read the whole thing: 

But in 1991 he was a council for the National Wildlife Federation, one of the largest and most powerful, non-profit environmental organizations in the world – with a developed agenda to get rid of ranchers like Wayne Hage.

On Mar. 10, 1991, Elicker participated in a panel at the Public Interest Law Conference at the University of Oregon, where he spoke quite frankly the organization’s political strategy that was being used to end livestock grazing on federal lands. The panel was titled “Public Lands Grazing: This Land is Our Land.” Here are a few excerpts from his talk:

"What everyone likes is the Big Victory. You load them cattle trucks for the last time and they go driving off into the sunset and they never come back."

"But you can win a lot more victories than that ultimate one, you can win a lot more victories by making him (the rancher) pay for what he does out there and by making it so expensive in his operation and making so many changes for him to continue to run his cattle on the public lands that he goes broke, he can't do it, he has to come up with other ways to be a rancher."

"When you get right down to it, the boots and the hat, boy for them guys, it’s a way of life."

"The ultimate picture is, of course, the last cattle truck driving off into the sunset, but that's not how you win."

"How you win is one at a time, one at a time, he goes out of business, he dies, you wait him out, but you win."

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gst Said:
Now I know you will instantly come to the defense of this judge, but given Reid's history of fraud and manipulation of the sytem, could the possibility of impropriety exist in this judicial ruling?

Can you tell us if this judge looked at the Hage case in making his ruling?

Please provide proof to these claims.  Yet you are defending someone who used public resources for free, stealing from the people.  Did the judge look at the Hage case, I don't know, but I would be Bundy did bring it up.  GST, why hasn't Bundy challenged this ruling in a higher court?

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gst Said:
Enter another plainsman disciple from nodak.

I've been here since 2003, but don't post much.  I see you have as much credibility here as you did on nodak.  A true politician that can twist anything into what they want.

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pber, I don't agree with the guy who said that.  As I said it's not good for land to be idle.  Most of our prairie plant species are products of bison grazing and prairie fire.  One of the worst invaders is Kentucky Bluegrass.  People would not suspect that species, but the problem is it leaves years of dead material on the surface choking out some species and shading the soil preventing other species from sprouting.  You either graze it light or moderate, or you burn to control vegetative buildup. 

I still think we need to look at all of these things separately.  Hage, Reid, and Bundy.  What I can't understand is why didn't the BLM throw Bundy off in 1994 if he stopped paying in 1993.  That is part of the problem.  They keep trying to talk and reason and you can't reason with people like Bundy.

I

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Longshot Said:

gst Said:
Now I know you will instantly come to the defense of this judge, but given Reid's history of fraud and manipulation of the sytem, could the possibility of impropriety exist in this judicial ruling?

Can you tell us if this judge looked at the Hage case in making his ruling?

Please provide proof to these claims.  Yet you are defending someone who used public resources for free, stealing from the people.  Did the judge look at the Hage case, I don't know, but I would be Bundy did bring it up.  GST, why hasn't Bundy challenged this ruling in a higher court?

longshot watch the video of the Lou Dobbs I posted. They mention reids connection to this judge. All I did is ask a question,  I did not make a "claim" outside of what was stated in the Dobbs video, you seem to have the same grasp of the English language past 3rd grade as ron.

Note the enlarged, emboldened question mark indicating a question rather than a claim.

Is Jimmy a crooked politician?

Jimmy is a crooked politician.

If you guys wish to dismiss the possibility of yet another connection to fraud or wrong doing related to Reid and this case, you surely can.

You will have to ask bundy why he has not challenged anything. Perhaps he has exhausted his finances in the earlier cases? Who knows, Wayne Hage has spoken to the fact these Federal takings cases are extremely costly to follow thru and prove.

Like I said, you would have to ask Mr. Bundy. Perhaps as a life long Nevadan he has a little better handle on the depth of corruption that exists there than you or I.

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Longshot Said:

gst Said:
Enter another plainsman disciple from nodak.

I've been here since 2003, but don't post much.  I see you have as much credibility here as you did on nodak.  A true politician that can twist anything into what they want.

What do you make the basis for the emboldened claim on longshot? Just personal animus or is there something more ..........well substantial?

ron, palsinaman and westnodak, your friends from nodak whining, hardly seems like a "credible" source to judge another's credibility.

Have they provided any links to disprove what has been offered up as information in this case?

Or have they just engagd in petty personal attacks much like what you have chosen to bring to the table?

You do ramble on a bit more over on Nodak though don;t you long shot?

There seems to be about a half dozen of you guys left.

Longshot, you seem pretty upset about Bundy "stealing" a million dollars from the people, how do you feel about the "peoples" lands being sold to the Chinese for a small fraction of their appraised worth of many tens of millions by the Clark County Commissioners under the leadership of Sen Reid's son?

Can you link us to a post you have made stating your outrage over that "theft"?

Didn't think so.

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Plainsman Said:
pber, I don't agree with the guy who said that. 
I

But yet you want to welcome them into our state to change our constitution!!!! The NWF is one ofthe big pockets behind the 5% oil and gas tax funds money grab  measure camoflauged as a "clean air and water" solution. .

What do you suppose they will target those funds for Bruce?

Buying up grazing allotments on lands you claim to support grazing on??

You do know that is what the NWF does right?

Perhaps using these 5% funds will free up more funds for lawsuits such as this one.

http://www.oha.doi.gov/IBLA/Ibladecisions/140IBLA/140IBLA085%20NATIONAL%...

The 90's were full of actions such as these by the enviromentalists and their front orgs Bruce. You see those of us in the ranching business are quite familiar with the actions these groups engaged in .

So when people such as yourself defend their coming into our state to spend millions in out of state dollars to change our constitution to gain access to BILLIONS of dollars we have some pretty valid reasons to oppose them.

So will you stand up against these orgs such as the NWF that you claim you do not agree with, or will you defend them and attack others that seek to educate the people of North Dakota about their real agendas?

Plainsman Said:
  That is part of the problem.  They keep trying to talk and reason and you can't reason with people like Bundy.

Ha good one that would only come from a life long govt employee. The GOVT was the one "talking reason"..................... good one bruce.

So apparently you believe a clear concerted effort to remove ranchers and grazing from these lands is "talking reason" eh bruce?

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But yet you want to welcome them into our state to change our constitution!!!! The NWF is one ofthe big pockets behind the 5% oil and gas tax funds

You held off for 19 pages to bring it  up this time, but it always goes there doesn't it.  I hope real sportsmen see that you don't have a conservation thought in all of this.  As a matter of fact your always on the side pro ag and anti conservation.  Lets settle one debate at a time.  It doesn't always have to be something that gets you off. 

You are not a truthful person gst.  The only thing I said was Bundy was not a person to talk reason with.  Didn't the court also have a reasonable conclusion, and Bundy defies it? 

You want to run in circles because Bundy can not reasonably be defended.  A thief has no defense. 

English language past 3rd grade as ron.

Funny coming from a guy who clearly can't understand.  I don't like highly educated looking down their nose at those with less education, but I have just as much disgust with those with less education that think the educated are stupid.   One is arrogant and the other is ignorant, and both impress only themselves.   

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gst Said:

Longshot Said:

gst Said:
Enter another plainsman disciple from nodak.

I've been here since 2003, but don't post much.  I see you have as much credibility here as you did on nodak.  A true politician that can twist anything into what they want.

What do you make the basis for the emboldened claim on longshot? Just personal animus or is there something more ..........well substantial?

ron, palsinaman and westnodak, your friends from nodak whining, hardly seems like a "credible" source to judge another's credibility.

Have they provided any links to disprove what has been offered up as information in this case?

Or have they just engagd in petty personal attacks much like what you have chosen to bring to the table?

You do ramble on a bit more over on Nodak though don;t you long shot?

There seems to be about a half dozen of you guys left.

Longshot, you seem pretty upset about Bundy "stealing" a million dollars from the people, how do you feel about the "peoples" lands being sold to the Chinese for a small fraction of their appraised worth of many tens of millions by the Clark County Commissioners under the leadership of Sen Reid's son?

Can you link us to a post you have made stating your outrage over that "theft"?

Didn't think so.

Your typical redirection and BS.  I have not talked about the lands being sold to the Chinese.  I didn't know that was a requirement under a thread primarily about Bundy.  You have no credibility when you continue to twist words.  I don't agree to the selling of land to the Chinese, but you try to imply that I am for it by accusing me of it because I didn't post about it.  This is your typical BS. 

Also I rarely post on either of the sites mentioned, but what does that matter? 

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Plainsman Said:

But yet you want to welcome them into our state to change our constitution!!!! The NWF is one ofthe big pockets behind the 5% oil and gas tax funds

You held off for 19 pages to bring it  up this time, but it always goes there doesn't it.

plaisnamn it "always goes there" because these groups are always behind crap like forcing ranchers of these multiple use Federal lands and other agendas such as the EPA's "collaboration" with The Nature Conservancy.

Dig deep enough and these non profit orgs almost ALWAYS show up.

And now you want them to come into our state to change our states constitution to have access to billions of dollars.
 

That is the "truthful" fact.

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Plainsman Said:
  That is part of the problem.  They keep trying to talk and reason and you can't reason with people like Bundy.

Plainsman Said:

You are not a truthful person gst.  The only thing I said was Bundy was not a person to talk reason with. 

which is it bruce, it surely seems as if you are suggesting the "govt/they" "keep trying to talk reason".

Plainsman Said:

English language past 3rd grade as ron.

Funny coming from a guy who clearly can't understand.  I don't like highly educated looking down their nose at those with less education, but I have just as much disgust with those with less education that think the educated are stupid.   One is arrogant and the other is ignorant, and both impress only themselves.   

I mean my understanding of English makes me think that's what you were saying bruce.

I only think the educated are "stupid" when they display their stupidity with their own words bruce.

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gst didn't bring up the 5% oil revenue rip off.... I did.

Plainsman said,
Lets settle one debate at a time.  It doesn't always have to be something that gets you off. 
 

Yada, yada,

I know you would like to keep the focus on Bundy didn't pay his lease for twenty years. Nobody is arguing that was the right thing to do.

They who define the issues control the debate. I know you would like to keep that the focus.

Bundy never signed the lease back in 1993 either. Now go fish. You tell us why?

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Longshot Said:

gst Said:

Longshot Said:

gst Said:
Enter another plainsman disciple from nodak.

I've been here since 2003, but don't post much.  I see you have as much credibility here as you did on nodak.  A true politician that can twist anything into what they want.

What do you make the basis for the emboldened claim on longshot? Just personal animus or is there something more ..........well substantial?

ron, palsinaman and westnodak, your friends from nodak whining, hardly seems like a "credible" source to judge another's credibility.

Have they provided any links to disprove what has been offered up as information in this case?

Or have they just engagd in petty personal attacks much like what you have chosen to bring to the table?

You do ramble on a bit more over on Nodak though don;t you long shot?

There seems to be about a half dozen of you guys left.

Longshot, you seem pretty upset about Bundy "stealing" a million dollars from the people, how do you feel about the "peoples" lands being sold to the Chinese for a small fraction of their appraised worth of many tens of millions by the Clark County Commissioners under the leadership of Sen Reid's son?

Can you link us to a post you have made stating your outrage over that "theft"?

Didn't think so.

Your typical redirection and BS.  I have not talked about the lands being sold to the Chinese.  I didn't know that was a requirement under a thread primarily about Bundy.  You have no credibility when you continue to twist words.  I don't agree to the selling of land to the Chinese, but you try to imply that I am for it by accusing me of it because I didn't post about it.  This is your typical BS. 

Also I rarely post on either of the sites mentioned, but what does that matter? 

longshot, you seemed upset about this rancher "stealing" from "the people", I was merely curious to see what you thought about the Chinese firm being sold BLM lands  (the peoples lands) appraised at a fraction of what they are worth?

No where have I inferred you were "for" this sale of lands far below their value, only that you are so biased against one rancher you would chose to over look this "theft" of many millions from "the people".

That observation  is no BS.

I mean a number of people other than myslef, who knows how many by now, believe there exists some connection between the two but if you guys wish to dismiss these connections and Sen Reids history, you most certianly can.  .

The thread is not "primarily about Bundy" but the over reach and crooked back dealings of the govt to remove ranchers like Bundy from these multiple use private lands.

Try not to spin things so much there longshot.

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Kinda thought this was funny, It seems alot like how some are trying to dismiss the govts actions and connections.

No matter what side of the AISLE you're on, THIS is FUNNY.

Judy Walkman, a professional genealogy researcher in southern California , was doing some personal work on her own family tree. She discovered that Senator Harry Reid's great-great uncle, Remus Reid, was hanged for horse stealing and train robbery in Montana in 1889. Both Judy and Harry Reid share this common ancestor.
The only known photograph of Remus shows him standing on the gallows in Montana territory.

On the back of the picture Judy obtained during her research is this inscription: 'Remus Reid, horse thief, sent to Montana Territorial Prison 1885, escaped 1887, robbed the Montana Flyer six times. Caught by Pinkerton detectives, convicted and hanged in 1889.'
So Judy recently e-mailed Senator Harry Reid for information about their great-great uncle.

Believe it or not, Harry Reid's staff sent back the following biographical sketch for her genealogy research:

"Remus Reid was a famous cowboy in the Montana Territory . His business empire grew to include acquisition of valuable equestrian assets and intimate dealings with the Montana railroad. Beginning in 1883, he devoted several years of his life to government service, finally taking leave to resume his dealings with the railroad. In 1887, he was a key player in a vital investigation run by the renowned Pinkerton Detective Agency. In 1889, Remus passed away during an important civic function held in his honor when the platform upon which he was standing collapsed."

Now THAT’s how it’s done, Folks!
That’s real Political Spin!!

Indeed, this is about some grazing fees and a tortoise boys and girls.

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Bundy never signed the lease back in 1993 either. Now go fish. You tell us why?

I think that's why the BLM called it trespassing.   I don't think he had grazing rights when he put his cattle out this spring.  Maybe that's why they decided to do something this time of year.  It's when he put his cows on the land.

I mean my understanding of English makes me think that's what you were saying bruce.

I used the word "they" because it would cover everyone who tried to reason with Bundy.  That would include the BLM, the judge, the county sheriff I would guess got involved somewhere, the county commissioner that expressed his opinion of the Bundy's, and anyone else who talked with him.  Your trying to make mountains out of mole hills. 

So lets get the subject of this thread out of the way before we go off on tangents.  I'm interested why you support Bundy.  Do you think he should still have grazing rights?  Do you think an apartment renter should be able to stay in his apartment after not paying rent for 20 years.  Just to help you out lets pretend the apartment renter isn't a farmer. 

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Plainsman Said:

Bundy never signed the lease back in 1993 either. Now go fish. You tell us why?

I think that's why the BLM called it trespassing.   I don't think he had grazing rights when he put his cattle out this spring.  Maybe that's why they decided to do something this time of year.  It's when he put his cows on the land.
  As opposed to the previous 20 years????

I mean my understanding of English makes me think that's what you were saying bruce.

I used the word "they" because it would cover everyone who tried to reason with Bundy.  That would include the BLM, the judge, the county sheriff I would guess got involved somewhere, the county commissioner that expressed his opinion of the Bundy's, and anyone else who talked with him.  Your trying to make mountains out of mole hills. 
Nice story bruce.

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Nice story bruce.

Your second grade teacher should have taught you those things. 

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Plainsman Said:

Nice story bruce.

Your second grade teacher should have taught you those things. 

So buce are you claiming that all these entities you say are a part of this clear move to remove these ranchers from these lands by cutting their allotments to the point they can no longer stay in  business were "talking reasonable"?
 
Is the following thatpber posted an example of your "talking reasonable"?

"What everyone likes is the Big Victory. You load them cattle trucks for the last time and they go driving off into the sunset and they never come back."

"But you can win a lot more victories than that ultimate one, you can win a lot more victories by making him (the rancher) pay for what he does out there and by making it so expensive in his operation and making so many changes for him to continue to run his cattle on the public lands that he goes broke, he can't do it, he has to come up with other ways to be a rancher."

"When you get right down to it, the boots and the hat, boy for them guys, it’s a way of life."

"The ultimate picture is, of course, the last cattle truck driving off into the sunset, but that's not how you win."

"How you win is one at a time, one at a time, he goes out of business, he dies, you wait him out, but you win."

Indeed bruce nothing but a "molehill" here right??

Especially when these groups have millions of dollars to accomplish their goals and have their lawsuits paid for by the tax payer.

You see bruce you don;t want the average person to know this is what is behind all this do you.

People like you and longshot don;t want to be straight up with the people of this state and let them know that these are the kinds of people  and groups and ideals trying to buy changes to our constitution with their millions of out of state dollars.
 
And when anyone pulls back the covers and shines a light on the roaches you immediately attack them personally to try and deflect from the reality of what is happening.

Perhaps they taught you that in govt class somewhere in your tenure as a life long govt employee.

I wonder what longshot does/did or a living?

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gst Said:

Nice story bruce.

Now that is funny.  Must be kind of like your story of the link between the judge and Reid?  The connection you claim or don't claim but post.  So gst since the BLM didn't do anything for 20 years that makes Bundy's trespass ok?

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Kicking butt today again I see gabe!  You gotta be up to what 12...maybe 14 posts already!  Nice work!

One question for you.  Do you consider posting on FBO this many times in a day waste full time management or......?  Just wondering.

If god didn't want us to eat animals....he wouldn't have made them out of food.

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gst Said:
No where have I inferred you were "for" this sale of lands far below their value, only that you are so biased against one rancher you would chose to over look this "theft" of many millions from "the people".

That observation  is no BS.

Wow you even contradict yourself in a single post.  You're getting good at that.  Claim to not infer that I was for the land sale yet infer that I would overlook it (approve of it being the meaning of this) because of your perceived bias against "one rancher". 

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I need help figuring this out.  Most on here are smarter than I so here's the scene.

Clive Bundy owes 1.1 million.  So they claim.  They send the Seventh Calvery in.

Al Sharpton owes 1.9 million and he is at a fundraiser party on down with Odumbo.

Something wrong here in my mind.

Guess it is who you know. 

"If God didn't want us to hunt, He wouldn't have given us plaid shirts; I only kill in self defense—what would you do if a rabbit pulled a knife on you?"

Floyd R. Turbo

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There you go zogman another cell mate for Reid and Bundy. 

gst you ask what is reasonable grazing.  I'll tell you if you tell me the plant species on Bundy's grazing allotment (or what was his allotment), the tons per acre, the water availability, the top five plants in the desert tortoise diet, etc.  Then we can talk logically not all emotion and bs.  You or I don't have those answers do we?  I don't. 

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zogman Said:
I need help figuring this out.  Most on here are smarter than I so here's the scene.

Clive Bundy owes 1.1 million.  So they claim.  They send the Seventh Calvery in.

Al Sharpton owes 1.9 million and he is at a fundraiser party on down with Odumbo.

Something wrong here in my mind.

Guess it is who you know. 

Yep they should put a lein on all of Al Sharpton's assets!  But then again just because Al Sharpton is wrong doesn't make it ok for anyone.  Both the IRS and the BLM need to manage things better.

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Longshot Said:

gst Said:

Nice story bruce.

Now that is funny.  Must be kind of like your story of the link between the judge and Reid?  The connection you claim or don't claim but post.  So gst since the BLM didn't do anything for 20 years that makes Bundy's trespass ok?

longshot, once again, it is not "my" story.

Go to the Lou Dobbs video and at about 3.55 into it they mention it.

longshot, if the BLM is crated to help ranchers better manage their lands thru fees the rancher pays to the BLM and then suddenly over night the BLM because of lawsuits form orgs you seem to like takes these fees and uses them to push the rancher off the lands, is "that right"?

What about the multiple use agreements that these ranchers had honored for decades?

longshot, it is back tracking a bit, but I will ask you the same thing I asked bruce and ron. What do YOU know about western land law and water rights?

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Plainsman Said:
There you go zogman another cell mate for Reid and Bundy. 

gst you ask what is reasonable grazing.  I'll tell you if you tell me the plant species on Bundy's grazing allotment (or what was his allotment), the tons per acre, the water availability, the top five plants in the desert tortoise diet, etc.  Then we can talk logically not all emotion and bs.  You or I don't have those answers do we?  I don't

plasinamn were have I asked what is "reasonable grazing"?? You seem to be the one trying to make claims about what is or what based on 70 year old pictures bruce.

one simple question. Is NO grazing the right amount on lands in Nevada?

How about the land in Wyoming that you seemed to be an expert on bruce. you seem to want to sneak way from that conversation.

You claimed there should be NO grazing on these lands and yet here above you admit you know nothing about themhave no knowledge to base that statement on. You do remember saying there should be NO grazing o the Bundy allotment right bruce?


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wstnodak Said:
Kicking butt today again I see gabe!  You gotta be up to what 12...maybe 14 posts already!  Nice work!

One question for you.  Do you consider posting on FBO this many times in a day waste full time management or......?  Just wondering.

James, I really hate to waste a post answering these petty childish hatred based whines. So please, try actually speaking to an issue for once.

Just to ease your mind on my daily management, started today feeding cows, tagged a few calves, got a box off a pickup and got a flatbed bolted on it, roped and treated a calf, picked up some seed that was delivered to the neighbors, headed to a baseball game, left when it was 19 to 0 in the 3rd and just got back home, before the day ends will go thru some more calves, run in two pairs that calved today, hook up a trailer to go to town with tomorrow and  then maybe close a few grain bin lids before it rains.

Kind of a slow day.

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one simple question.

That's the biggest lie I have seen on fishingbuddy.  One question, sure and pigs fly.

You claimed there should be NO grazing on these lands

I said if it takes 320 acres to feed one cow there should be no grazing.  I can't imagine anyone grazing land with that little grass.  From a energy budget standpoint I don't see where a cow can balance energy output with energy gained.  I kind of wonder if old Bundy was telling the truth about that too. 

How about the land in Wyoming that you seemed to be an expert on bruce. you seem to want to sneak way from that conversation.
 

I see you can't count either.  I seen public land in Wyoming that was lightly grazed, some heavily grazed, and some moderate.  I looked at the prescribed grazing rate and some of those guys were putting in more cattle than they paid for.  I needed to look at heavily grazed, moderately grazed, and lightly grazed so it worked out well.  It was hard to find lightly grazed.  Unfortunately heavily grazed was the easiest to find.  The lightly grazed that I looked at would have supported a cow calf on 15 acres.  The heavily grazed would have required 80 acres and needed a year of recovery.  Any more grazing and there would have been tooth marks on the rocks. 320 acres per AUM if not all trees, sage, or cactus must look like a lunar scape. 

gst how much per acre would you rent land from a neighbor for grazing 320 AUM land.  Maybe you could answer that question for me.  I doubt you will answer, but I want others to think about that.  What does this land look like, and why would you want your cow on it? 

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