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Ya... Beminoid... Whoosh... that point mustve went right over your head. How could you miss it? ;)

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espringers Said:
Ya... Beminoid... Whoosh... that point mustve went right over your head. How could you miss it? ;)

Surely you didn't espringers.

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No. I didnt miss it. Neither did he. But, you clearly aren't grasping what a poor point everyone else thinks it is... Even those who share your views on gay marriage are distancing themselves from your particular method of coloring by numbers and connecting the dots.

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I guess I would have to be more on the phil robertson side of this topic

Neat

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Our moral values are constantly changing.   Years ago slavery was OK, women were not allowed the right to vote, beating your wife was OK, and racial segregation was looked at as a good thing.   ND thought that unmarried men and women should not be allowed to live together, that law has been repealed.    Years ago you would not have seen a farmer out in the field on Sunday, now it's commonplace.     Teenage girls getting married was OK, now it is not.     If laws have not been changed in some sates it is probably because it has not been an issue.   It is hard to say that all change is good or all change is bad, but things have and will continue to change.  

Attitudes on gay marriage are changing because the gay community has been making their case and people, young people in particular, are siding with them.    Young people favor gay marriage by a large margin.  It is going to happen.     All these years of debate and all the anti-gay marriage folks can come up with is something about the bible, sin, or deflect with pedophilia/beastiality 

Being gay in this day and age is looked at by many people, myself included, as being no different than race;   they did not choose to be born that way it just happened.     As with race they deserve protection against discrimination.   

We should have a society where people are free to be themselves and pursue happiness as long as you don't step on someone else's toes.   The gays and lesbians that I have known in my life have been good and decent people.   They work, obey the law, and pay taxes.    None of them ever tried to recruit me and have treated me with decency and respect.  


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Candiru Said:
Our moral values are constantly changing.   Years ago slavery was OK, women were not allowed the right to vote, beating your wife was OK, and racial segregation was looked at as a good thing.   ND thought that unmarried men and women should not be allowed to live together, that law has been repealed.    Years ago you would not have seen a farmer out in the field on Sunday, now it's commonplace.     Teenage girls getting married was OK, now it is not.     If laws have not been changed in some sates it is probably because it has not been an issue.   It is hard to say that all change is good or all change is bad, but things have and will continue to change.  

Attitudes on gay marriage are changing because the gay community has been making their case and people, young people in particular, are siding with them.    Young people favor gay marriage by a large margin.  It is going to happen.     All these years of debate and all the anti-gay marriage folks can come up with is something about the bible, sin, or deflect with pedophilia/beastiality 

Being gay in this day and age is looked at by many people, myself included, as being no different than race;   they did not choose to be born that way it just happened.     As with race they deserve protection against discrimination.   

We should have a society where people are free to be themselves and pursue happiness as long as you don't step on someone else's toes.   The gays and lesbians that I have known in my life have been good and decent people.   They work, obey the law, and pay taxes.    None of them ever tried to recruit me and have treated me with decency and respect.  


I think that captures it right there.

I would also say, gst, that if you're worried about the shifting of the definition of marriage, lobby the government to get them out of the business of issuing marriage licenses at all and let everybody get civil unions for the governmental rights they bestow.  You will get no fight from me if you wish to have your church recognize marriages and define them however they like.  At this point, however, marriage remains a government sanctioned relationship, and I feel our government is being discriminatory when not all consenting adults are allowed to enter into marriage with the consenting adult of mutual choosing.

And yes, the "incrementalism" argument is beyond played out.  It has been demonstrated how this so-called argument could be applied to virtually any law of one's choosing, and it becomes just silly.

Allow 16 year olds to drive?  Heck no!  Next thing you know we'll be teaching driver's ed in kindergarten!

Allow hunting of coyotes? NO!  Next thing you know, it will be legal for somebody to come "hunt" my pet black lab!


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No shit our "moral values" are constantly changing. Genius observation.

So candiru, beings you are suggesting we just sit back and let the moral ideals on gay marriage "change" what then do you think about a state like New Hampshire allowing a gay man to marry a 14 year old boy? Should we just sit back and let that "change" happen as well? They already let men marry 14 year old girls there. They already let men marry men there, what is the next logical step as "our morals change"?

Candiru claims"All these years of debate and all the anti-gay marriage folks can come up with is something about the bible, sin, or deflect with pedophilia/beastiality" 
 
Candiru, what most, including btr I am guessing, would consider "pedophilia" is currently happening in some states. You can not deny that unless you think 40 year old men being able to legally marry 13 year old girls is NOT pedophilia. '

The people that support gay marriage like Candiru don't want to admit this "change" is occurring in this nation because it might actually wake people up. So you either stick your head in the sand and pretend it is not happening or make bullshit claims about "morals changing" so we need to change with them" on sites like this and "deflect" by linking those wanting traditional marriage as "fixated" on bestiality or pedophilia.

"Deflect?"?????

It is happening as our "morals change".

That is why those that want to stick their heads in the sand and not believe the "changing " of "moral values" will NOT incrementally lead to things THEY think are morally wrong are blind fools. 

THEY wish to demand THEIR views of what is "moral" be accepted, but yet will not admit what they may very well lead to.

Espringers you are a lawyer. Answer this question if you would.

In the state of New Hampshire where gay marriage is legal, and where a 40 year old man CAN marry a 14 year old girl according to state law, how could a judge rule if a 40 year old man wanted to marry a 14 year old boy and filed a law suit to have his "civil rights" upheld under already established New Hampshire law?

For me it is a matter of states rights. Period.

I just point out what other states have currently allowed by law to show that the line people like btr and multi think should not be crossed just like others think the line of gay marriage should not be crossed is happening as our "morals change".

Combine that with my personal opinion that a couple that by design has the ability to propagate the human species should have a different "title" of their legal union than a couple that by design can not.

Cut it however you want, two women or two men can not create a child by themselves as a couple. To me that indeed makes their union secondary to those that by design could.

 

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sparetire Said:
 

I think that captures it right there.

I would also say, gst, that if you're worried about the shifting of the definition of marriage, lobby the government to get them out of the business of issuing marriage licenses at all and let everybody get civil unions for the governmental rights they bestow.  You will get no fight from me if you wish to have your church recognize marriages and define them however they like.  At this point, however, marriage remains a government sanctioned relationship, and I feel our government is being discriminatory when not all consenting adults are allowed to enter into marriage with the consenting adult of mutual choosing.

And yes, the "incrementalism" argument is beyond played out.  It has been demonstrated how this so-called argument could be applied to virtually any law of one's choosing, and it becomes just silly.

Allow 16 year olds to drive?  Heck no!  Next thing you know we'll be teaching driver's ed in kindergarten!

Allow hunting of coyotes? NO!  Next thing you know, it will be legal for somebody to come "hunt" my pet black lab!

So spare, what do YOU think of New Hampshire's law that allows a 40 year old man to marry a 13 year old girl? 
 
How about Florida's marriage laws that allow "adults" to marry "children"?

Perhaps you just think they are "silly".

Candiru, Same question.

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I assume a 14 year old would need parental consent and a court waiver to get married... And also assume the same rules would apply to boys as they do girls... I find it disgusting and doubt they are allowed under anything but extremely extraordinary circumstances that i couldnt even imagine...

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So spare, what do YOU think of New Hampshire's law that allows a 40 year old man to marry a 13 year old girl? 
 
How about Florida's marriage laws that allow "adults" to marry "children"?

Perhaps you just think they are "silly".

Candiru, Same question.

I think such laws are wrong.  A 13 year old is not a consenting adult.  These laws have nothing to do with the so-called incrementalism between gay marriage and pedophilia. I think marriage is a legally binding contract, and as such, a person should be the age of majority in order to enter into it.

I don't think that states' rights are the be-all end-all.  

This whole business that marriage needs to be between people who can procreate together is a slippery slope.  I ask you, which of the following people would you allow to get married?

-women with Turner syndrome.
-women with androgen insensitivity syndrome.
-men who have had a vasectomy.
-post-menopausal women.

If you would allow them to marry, why?  They can't procreate.  

Would you let a post-op trans-sexual woman marry a man?  Should each person have chromosomal testing before marriage, in order to prove their biologic gender?



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Good grief,   Why are you so infatuated with teenagers getting married?  Is that all you got?

I would guess that those laws, NH in particular, are holdovers from another era.   If this stuff were actually going on now I would imagine there would be a drive to repeal it due to public outrage.    At one time a 13 year old getting married to an older man was viewed as being OK.  It is no longer.

 I strongly disapprove of people under 18 getting married.  If I was living in one of those states I would be asking my legislator to change those laws to make the age 18.    

How many people under 18 are getting married these days?   I really don't think it is very many at all.      Where is the movement out there to lower the age of marriage?   I really don't see it.    

I think we were all sickened a few years ago when the dealings of Warren Jeffs and the polygamist FLDS were revealed.   It is some really sick shit.  Google and read up on it.  It is a cult built around old men having sex with girls.   Or do you think that the gov't was violating the "religious freedom" of Warren Jeffs when they threw him in jail for life?

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 Gst-last I checked we were in ND, not NH,OR,NV, FL ect ect. Your argument keeps going to what most think is pedophilia. Get over it. Who cares if a guy wants to marry a guy or woman wants to marry a woman. Through 12 pages we get that your opinion is the only one that you care about, #letitgo

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beminoid31 Said:
 Gst-last I checked we were in ND, not NH,OR,NV, FL ect ect. Your argument keeps going to what most think is pedophilia. Get over it. Who cares if a guy wants to marry a guy or woman wants to marry a woman. Through 12 pages we get that your opinion is the only one that you care about, #letitgo

Sorry, I can tell by your profile pic that you are a man who likes to have meat slapped across his forehead.  As such, your opinion is rendered invalid by FBO bylaw 12.31.45, subsection a, part 12.


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Candiru Said:
Good grief,   Why are you so infatuated with teenagers getting married?  Is that all you got?

I would guess that those laws, NH in particular, are holdovers from another era.   If this stuff were actually going on now I would imagine there would be a drive to repeal it due to public outrage.    At one time a 13 year old getting married to an older man was viewed as being OK.  It is no longer.

 I strongly disapprove of people under 18 getting married.  If I was living in one of those states I would be asking my legislator to change those laws to make the age 18.    

How many people under 18 are getting married these days?   I really don't think it is very many at all.      Where is the movement out there to lower the age of marriage?   I really don't see it.    

I think we were all sickened a few years ago when the dealings of Warren Jeffs and the polygamist FLDS were revealed.   It is some really sick shit.  Google and read up on it.  It is a cult built around old men having sex with girls.   Or do you think that the gov't was violating the "religious freedom" of Warren Jeffs when they threw him in jail for life?

There you go pressing your views and morals on others which appears to be the crux of the argument.

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 If protecting 13 year olds from dirty old men means that I am "imposing my morals" on others, I am guilty as charged.  

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 If protecting gay people so they can live their lives without fear of being fired from a job, denied housing, or discriminated against including entering into marriage with another fully consenting adult and all the benefits attached to it;  means I am imposing my morals on others, I will proudly plead guilty.  

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Candiru Said:
 If protecting 13 year olds from dirty old men means that I am "imposing my morals" on others, I am guilty as charged.  

So you're saying those cultures which allow child marriage are wrong?

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sparetire Said:
 
beminoid31 Said:
 Gst-last I checked we were in ND, not NH,OR,NV, FL ect ect. Your argument keeps going to what most think is pedophilia. Get over it. Who cares if a guy wants to marry a guy or woman wants to marry a woman. Through 12 pages we get that your opinion is the only one that you care about, #letitgo

If only it was me in my profile pic...it's hunttomuch

Sorry, I can tell by your profile pic that you are a man who likes to have meat slapped across his forehead.  As such, your opinion is rendered invalid by FBO bylaw 12.31.45, subsection a, part 12.

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Im only one man
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 *pukes.

I can't believe you are comparing this issue to race or women's rights.   

I will not accept the notion that some were "born" gay,  any more than I will accept the thought that some are born with bestial tendencies.   

  If it can't produce offspring how could it be natural?    

You will try to claim that I hate gay people.   And that is simply not true.    I do not accept what they do,  but I do not hate them  #fact.

#still puking.   

sparetire Said:
 

Candiru Said:
Our moral values are constantly changing.   Years ago slavery was OK, women were not allowed the right to vote, beating your wife was OK, and racial segregation was looked at as a good thing.   ND thought that unmarried men and women should not be allowed to live together, that law has been repealed.    Years ago you would not have seen a farmer out in the field on Sunday, now it's commonplace.     Teenage girls getting married was OK, now it is not.     If laws have not been changed in some sates it is probably because it has not been an issue.   It is hard to say that all change is good or all change is bad, but things have and will continue to change.  

Attitudes on gay marriage are changing because the gay community has been making their case and people, young people in particular, are siding with them.    Young people favor gay marriage by a large margin.  It is going to happen.     All these years of debate and all the anti-gay marriage folks can come up with is something about the bible, sin, or deflect with pedophilia/beastiality 

Being gay in this day and age is looked at by many people, myself included, as being no different than race;   they did not choose to be born that way it just happened.     As with race they deserve protection against discrimination.   

We should have a society where people are free to be themselves and pursue happiness as long as you don't step on someone else's toes.   The gays and lesbians that I have known in my life have been good and decent people.   They work, obey the law, and pay taxes.    None of them ever tried to recruit me and have treated me with decency and respect.  


I think that captures it right there.

I would also say, gst, that if you're worried about the shifting of the definition of marriage, lobby the government to get them out of the business of issuing marriage licenses at all and let everybody get civil unions for the governmental rights they bestow.  You will get no fight from me if you wish to have your church recognize marriages and define them however they like.  At this point, however, marriage remains a government sanctioned relationship, and I feel our government is being discriminatory when not all consenting adults are allowed to enter into marriage with the consenting adult of mutual choosing.

And yes, the "incrementalism" argument is beyond played out.  It has been demonstrated how this so-called argument could be applied to virtually any law of one's choosing, and it becomes just silly.

Allow 16 year olds to drive?  Heck no!  Next thing you know we'll be teaching driver's ed in kindergarten!

Allow hunting of coyotes? NO!  Next thing you know, it will be legal for somebody to come "hunt" my pet black lab!

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Tell me about your father.    Was he there for you as a child?   

Gays can do whatever they want,  but they certainly shouldn't call it marriage.   
Denial and buttplay sound more factual to me.

Candiru Said:
 If protecting gay people so they can live their lives without fear of being fired from a job, denied housing, or discriminated against including entering into marriage with another fully consenting adult and all the benefits attached to it;  means I am imposing my morals on others, I will proudly plead guilty.  

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The Mantis Said:
 *pukes.

I can't believe you are comparing this issue to race or women's rights.   

I will not accept the notion that some were "born" gay,  any more than I will accept the thought that some are born with bestial tendencies.   

  If it can't produce offspring how could it be natural?    

You will try to claim that I hate gay people.   And that is simply not true.    I do not accept what they do,  but I do not hate them  #fact.

#still puking.   

I'll ask you the same thing I asked gst.  Should people with androgen insensitivity syndrome be allowed to marry?  Is that condition "not natural"?   How about women with Mayer-Rokitansky-Kuster-Hauser syndrome?  Should they be allowed to get married?

If you know any gay people, sometime you should ask them when they chose to be gay, and why they chose to be gay. 


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sparetire Said:
 

The Mantis Said:
 *pukes.

I can't believe you are comparing this issue to race or women's rights.   

I will not accept the notion that some were "born" gay,  any more than I will accept the thought that some are born with bestial tendencies.   

  If it can't produce offspring how could it be natural?    

You will try to claim that I hate gay people.   And that is simply not true.    I do not accept what they do,  but I do not hate them  #fact.

#still puking.   

I'll ask you the same thing I asked gst.  Should people with androgen insensitivity syndrome be allowed to marry?  Is that condition "not natural"?   How about women with Mayer-Rokitansky-Kuster-Hauser syndrome?  Should they be allowed to get married?

If you know any gay people, sometime you should ask them when they chose to be gay, and why they chose to be gay. 

I can't say that I know any gay folks at the moment.   I do however,  know four different girls that were lesbians for a while.   They were lesbians through and through they claimed,   they wanted to be accepted they said.   One of them hoped to marry her partner.    You know what the crazy thing is?     Two of them are married to men,  another has since renounced her lesbianism,  and the other is living with her boyfriend.     I guess these are just four random gay people that just weren't "born that way".    Apparently they were just born to flop back and forth a bit?   Or perhaps they had no IDENTITY and thought being gay would help.   

I know men from my grandfather's generation with feminine voices.   But nobody ever told them they could be gay so they got married and had kids like a man should.   Is that how it works?    Were they born gay or straight?   You're the gay expert why don't you explain all these things to us oh great gay authority,   o ye respecter of the weak and gay!   You gay morality mastermind!

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This is gay

Neat

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johnr Said:
This is gay
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I can't say that I know any gay folks at the moment.   I do however,  know four different girls that were lesbians for a while.   They were lesbians through and through they claimed,   they wanted to be accepted they said.   One of them hoped to marry her partner.    You know what the crazy thing is?     Two of them are married to men,  another has since renounced her lesbianism,  and the other is living with her boyfriend.     I guess these are just four random gay people that just weren't "born that way".    Apparently they were just born to flop back and forth a bit?   Or perhaps they had no IDENTITY and thought being gay would help.   

I know men from my grandfather's generation with feminine voices.   But nobody ever told them they could be gay so they got married and had kids like a man should.   Is that how it works?    Were they born gay or straight?   You're the gay expert why don't you explain all these things to us oh great gay authority,   o ye respecter of the weak and gay!   You gay morality mastermind!

I will try to answer your questions, but I will also note that you ignored mine.  As for the highlighted portion, I suspect that both of those things do indeed happen from time to time.  
Yes, there are gay men who get married and have kids because they and others think that's what a man "should" do.  I've also known some of these men to find it a very stressful existence, to live in denial.  

How does any of this matter in the context of gay marriage?


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I can understand chicks choosing to try gay Life cause some chicks are simply irresistibly smoking!

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I guess I amstraight because I find gay gay

Neat

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I didn't answer your other questions because I'm stressing the point that you think it is a birth trait and I do not,   therefore the other questions are VOID.  

This relates to gay marriage because I believe it has to do with the root of the 'problem'.   I believe homosexuality is a mental health issue,  not a birth trait.    

As I told candiru.   Gays can do whatever they want,   but when they want to defile traditional marriage and share the title, traditional marriage supporters aren't going to like it.  Those are really the points I'm trying to make here.   We clearly disagree.   Eight more pages won't decide the issue so I think I'll be done now.  

   I simply disagree with you,  and to me this is a very big issue.

sparetire Said:

I can't say that I know any gay folks at the moment.   I do however,  know four different girls that were lesbians for a while.   They were lesbians through and through they claimed,   they wanted to be accepted they said.   One of them hoped to marry her partner.    You know what the crazy thing is?     Two of them are married to men,  another has since renounced her lesbianism,  and the other is living with her boyfriend.     I guess these are just four random gay people that just weren't "born that way".    Apparently they were just born to flop back and forth a bit?   Or perhaps they had no IDENTITY and thought being gay would help.   

I know men from my grandfather's generation with feminine voices.   But nobody ever told them they could be gay so they got married and had kids like a man should.   Is that how it works?    Were they born gay or straight?   You're the gay expert why don't you explain all these things to us oh great gay authority,   o ye respecter of the weak and gay!   You gay morality mastermind!

I will try to answer your questions, but I will also note that you ignored mine.  As for the highlighted portion, I suspect that both of those things do indeed happen from time to time.  
Yes, there are gay men who get married and have kids because they and others think that's what a man "should" do.  I've also known some of these men to find it a very stressful existence, to live in denial.  

How does any of this matter in the context of gay marriage?

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I didn't answer your other questions because I'm stressing the point that you think it is a birth trait and I do not,   therefore the other questions are VOID.  

This relates to gay marriage because I believe it has to do with the root of the 'problem'.   I believe homosexuality is a mental health issue,  not a birth trait.    

As I told candiru.   Gays can do whatever they want,   but when they want to defile traditional marriage and share the title, traditional marriage supporters aren't going to like it.  Those are really the points I'm trying to make here.   We clearly disagree.   Eight more pages won't decide the issue so I think I'll be done now.  

   I simply disagree with you,  and to me this is a very big issue.

sparetire Said:

I can't say that I know any gay folks at the moment.   I do however,  know four different girls that were lesbians for a while.   They were lesbians through and through they claimed,   they wanted to be accepted they said.   One of them hoped to marry her partner.    You know what the crazy thing is?     Two of them are married to men,  another has since renounced her lesbianism,  and the other is living with her boyfriend.     I guess these are just four random gay people that just weren't "born that way".    Apparently they were just born to flop back and forth a bit?   Or perhaps they had no IDENTITY and thought being gay would help.   

I know men from my grandfather's generation with feminine voices.   But nobody ever told them they could be gay so they got married and had kids like a man should.   Is that how it works?    Were they born gay or straight?   You're the gay expert why don't you explain all these things to us oh great gay authority,   o ye respecter of the weak and gay!   You gay morality mastermind!

I will try to answer your questions, but I will also note that you ignored mine.  As for the highlighted portion, I suspect that both of those things do indeed happen from time to time.  
Yes, there are gay men who get married and have kids because they and others think that's what a man "should" do.  I've also known some of these men to find it a very stressful existence, to live in denial.  

How does any of this matter in the context of gay marriage?

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I didn't answer your other questions because I'm stressing the point that you think it is a birth trait and I do not,   therefore the other questions are VOID.  

This relates to gay marriage because I believe it has to do with the root of the 'problem'.   I believe homosexuality is a mental health issue,  not a birth trait.    

As I told candiru.   Gays can do whatever they want,   but when they want to defile traditional marriage and share the title, traditional marriage supporters aren't going to like it.  Those are really the points I'm trying to make here.   We clearly disagree.   Eight more pages won't decide the issue so I think I'll be done now.  

   I simply disagree with you,  and to me this is a very big issue.

sparetire Said:

I can't say that I know any gay folks at the moment.   I do however,  know four different girls that were lesbians for a while.   They were lesbians through and through they claimed,   they wanted to be accepted they said.   One of them hoped to marry her partner.    You know what the crazy thing is?     Two of them are married to men,  another has since renounced her lesbianism,  and the other is living with her boyfriend.     I guess these are just four random gay people that just weren't "born that way".    Apparently they were just born to flop back and forth a bit?   Or perhaps they had no IDENTITY and thought being gay would help.   

I know men from my grandfather's generation with feminine voices.   But nobody ever told them they could be gay so they got married and had kids like a man should.   Is that how it works?    Were they born gay or straight?   You're the gay expert why don't you explain all these things to us oh great gay authority,   o ye respecter of the weak and gay!   You gay morality mastermind!

I will try to answer your questions, but I will also note that you ignored mine.  As for the highlighted portion, I suspect that both of those things do indeed happen from time to time.  
Yes, there are gay men who get married and have kids because they and others think that's what a man "should" do.  I've also known some of these men to find it a very stressful existence, to live in denial.  

How does any of this matter in the context of gay marriage?

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