Really Jack?

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Farnorth Said:

HUNTNFISHND Said:
 I'm going to state my opinions on abortion and these laws only once.

IMO abortion should only be allowed in cases of rape or if the life of the mother or baby is in jeopardy. Abortion should never be allowed as a form of birth control. There are plenty of birth control options out there including the fool proof one, abstinence!

With that said these laws that were just signed are a huge waist of taxpayer money. They have zero chance of winning any legal battle. But our legislature seems to like waisting taxpayer money on things that stand no chance, ie UND's nickname. Way to go Al and Jack!

So, basically, you're more pro life than pro choice.  Technically, you aren't in either camp.  I'm similar but probably closer to the true middle since I would agree with more "exceptions" (ie Genetic defects and a few others).  I don't approve of abortion as a method of birth control but I also have no problem with things like morning after pills or some of the in vitro stuff that is being done.

If the protection of the unborn is paramount, then rape or the life of the Mother are irrelevant.  That would be a true pro life position.

I have changed my opinion about the cost of defending these Laws.  I DON'T think it will be expensive.  I think a Federal District Court will very quickly strike them down as Unconstitutional.  I think the SCOTUS will refuse to hear any appeals because there is nothing new, the makeup of the Court has not changed, and that will be the end of it as far as ND is concerned.

Better read the wording in the bill. It has been deeply researched for a couple of years so it  was written to directly support a battle in the courts.
I find it very funny how some here are willing bow at the alter of  all mighty federal power on this issue, when it is a states rights issue?
 If the state can force this through and win, our gun rights will have a better chance of being retained as a states rights issue also. Sometimes its better to step back to view the "bigger picture" than have a narrow-minded selfish view. I would personally like our State Government force this issue as a way to gain back some of the rights the DC crowd has slowly hoarded under their realm the past few years. Also unlike some other state governments , North Dakota has the money to fight this.
I'm Pro-Life, but also Pro-State. Yea Jack, Go ND!

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Plainsman Said:

Your absolutely right.  When we look at our congress the republicans give about four times as much to charity as democrats.  Liberals are parasites. 

As for abortion I can find only one word to describe it "barbaric".  I guess I put  it on about the same scale as cannibalism.  Actually if it's just a lump of tissue isn't it a waste of protein to throw it away.  What do you think fried or BBQ?  When pirates came into the Caribbean culture they referred to cooked human meat as "long pork".  How much difference is there in an abortion and some barbarian sitting at a camp fire with a big grin and a greasy face of human fat?  Ya, we are sure sophisticated.  Lets all stick a bone in our nose and dance around the fire.   

Abortion compared to cannibalism...wow.  I know you have gotten a lot of grief on this website in the past, now I know why. 


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 Chargers, the law that was passed does make exception for getting pregnant through invitro.  

The rest of you pro-abortion people, please answer a question I asked earlier.  When does life begin?  We pro-life people do believe life begins before birth.  Some may argue it begins at a heartbeat others at conception, etc.  However, we pro-life people do believe a baby is as much human as you and me before it was born.

So why does it surprise you that we would view killing humans before they are born as murder.  It is a human, we believe, and it is being killed because someone doesn't want it to interfere with their lives.

We also believe we are no more infringing on a persons right when abortion is illegal than passing a law saying that it is illegal to murder a person.  Is it infringing on your right as a human that there is a law that says it's illegal to kill your mother?

Because a human is inside the mother, it does not mean it it part of the mother.  It has its own DNA, its own heart, its own self.  The mother is only there to protect and feed it.  It is not a part of the mother like an fingernail is.  Clipping your fingernail is not the same as having an abortion.

Is it a religious thing or a moral thing that I am pro-life?  It is no more religious or moral than me being against murdering my own mother.  It's just the right and descent thing.

Again, no "pro-choice" person has answered my question "When does life begin?"  

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Candiru Said:
These laws have been getting quite a bit of coverage in the national media.   This stuff might play in ND., but it makes the GOP appear as the party of religious zealots to women, moderate and younger voters.     Unless the GOP gets it's act together or a viable 3rd party emerges this country is going to become California with a completely out of control Gov't. and the opposition will become nothing more than a speed bump.

That third party needs to happen.  Many people I know, including myself,  are losing interest in voting.  We are beginning to realize that all politicians are the same whether they are Republican or Democrat.  We have helped fund Republicans in their campaigns, but a new rule has been implemented in our house that no dollars go to any political campaign.  They all spend foolishly, they make everything political, look out for themselves first, and are only concerned with keeping their gravy train flowing.  Extremism in either direction is counter productive.

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 Dryfly36, why is it extreme to be pro-life?  Pro-life people believe life begins before birth, that we are still human before being born.  If we believe that, aren't we obligated to speak out when we believe humans are being murdered for convenience?  Would you consider yourself extreme if you spoke out against genocide?  There really isn't a middle ground here.  You can't say I'm against abortion but it's ok for a women to chose?  What you are saying is "I personally wouldn't have an abortion because I don't believe in murdering a person but it's okay if somebody else does"  Does that make sense to you?

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Westerneagle Said:
Better read the wording in the bill. It has been deeply researched for a couple of years so it  was written to directly support a battle in the courts.
I find it very funny how some here are willing bow at the alter of  all mighty federal power on this issue, when it is a states rights issue?
 If the state can force this through and win, our gun rights will have a better chance of being retained as a states rights issue also. Sometimes its better to step back to view the "bigger picture" than have a narrow-minded selfish view. I would personally like our State Government force this issue as a way to gain back some of the rights the DC crowd has slowly hoarded under their realm the past few years. Also unlike some other state governments , North Dakota has the money to fight this.
I'm Pro-Life, but also Pro-State. Yea Jack, Go ND!

I guess we'll see what happens.  My opinion changed after reading some things that were written by Pro Life legal eagles.  (not pro abortion as you seem to assume)

I hope these carefully written laws weren't done by the same morons who said there was a case against the NCAA in the nickname debacle.

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flycaster Said:
 Dryfly36, why is it extreme to be pro-life?  Pro-life people believe life begins before birth, that we are still human before being born.  If we believe that, aren't we obligated to speak out when we believe humans are being murdered for convenience?  Would you consider yourself extreme if you spoke out against genocide?  There really isn't a middle ground here.  You can't say I'm against abortion but it's ok for a women to chose?  What you are saying is "I personally wouldn't have an abortion because I don't believe in murdering a person but it's okay if somebody else does"  Does that make sense to you?

Read my post again.  No where did I say pro-life is extreme.   I am pro life.   I am talking about the political parties being extreme.   Some moderation needs to happen for the political process to work. 

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Just one question for you "Pro life" conservative anti government guys...if a life starts with a beating heart and shouldn't be aborted how can you than after that child has been born no longer value that beating heart and say he shouldn't be allowed food stamps, medicare, daycare assistance,  school lunch assistance all the things he/she will need to grow up healthy.  Pro life doesnt just cover from conception to birth it should cover everything possible to care for that child the entire time they are a child until they are 18.  You can't say your pro life and than as soon as their born not care for them and say they shouldn't be allowed any entitlements if the parents can't care for them properly.  This in my opinion is what makes all pro life, conservative, anti-government pro gun supporters the biggest bunch of hipocrites.  dont take my guns or infringe on my personal rights but go ahead tell a woman what she can or can't do with her own body, tell me where i can smoke, If i can drink a large pop?  I dont get you guys you cant have it both ways?!?!  

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Honkers_N_Walleyes Said:

This in my opinion is what makes all pro life, conservative, anti-government pro gun supporters the biggest bunch of hipocrites.  dont take my guns or infringe on my personal rights but go ahead tell a woman what she can or can't do with her own body, tell me where i can smoke, If i can drink a large pop?  I dont get you guys you cant have it both ways?!?!  

^this


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 Honkers, who in the heck is saying that they don't believe in helping out children in poverty?  Show me one person who is saying that.  And tell me, when does life begin?  You "pro-choice" people fail to answer that.  Read my above posts.  Is a baby really a part of a womans body like a fingernail is?  Does it not have it's own DNA and beating heart.  A woman only is there to protect and feed the baby.  It is not just another part of the body which a woman can throw away.

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Scenario for all of you.  Your wife is pregnant the doc says she and the baby will die if she continues to carry.  Do you just let her die even if you can save her by her having an abortion?  Serious question.  Just so you know where I stand Im going to save my wife. 

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DirtyMike Said:

Plainsman Said:

Your absolutely right.  When we look at our congress the republicans give about four times as much to charity as democrats.  Liberals are parasites. 

As for abortion I can find only one word to describe it "barbaric".  I guess I put  it on about the same scale as cannibalism.  Actually if it's just a lump of tissue isn't it a waste of protein to throw it away.  What do you think fried or BBQ?  When pirates came into the Caribbean culture they referred to cooked human meat as "long pork".  How much difference is there in an abortion and some barbarian sitting at a camp fire with a big grin and a greasy face of human fat?  Ya, we are sure sophisticated.  Lets all stick a bone in our nose and dance around the fire.   

Abortion compared to cannibalism...wow.  I know you have gotten a lot of grief on this website in the past, now I know why. 

I'm just saying if an aborted fetus is nothing but a pile of tissue then which do you prefer fried or BBQ.  If it's just as mass of tissue what makes it different than hamburger?  My only point is what's the difference.  I make that point to get people to look at it in a different perspective even if outrageous.  Sometimes outrageous gets people to reconsider.  My perspective makes abortion outrageous, so I used cannibalism because I was sure that from everyone's perspective this would be outrageous.  I know I was pushing the envelope, but for a reason.  I see I caught your attention.  Now what you need to do is judge my thought process and not me. 

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walleyepike1976 Said:

Scenario for all of you.  Your wife is pregnant the doc says she and the baby will die if she continues to carry.  Do you just let her die even if you can save her by her having an abortion?  Serious question.  Just so you know where I stand Im going to save my wife. 

scenarios like this is where laws like this scare me.That and rape victims. Gosh what a touchy subject this is.

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

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Plainsman Said:

I'm just saying if an aborted fetus is nothing but a pile of tissue then which do you prefer fried or BBQ.  If it's just as mass of tissue what makes it different than hamburger?  My only point is what's the difference.  I make that point to get people to look at it in a different perspective even if outrageous.  Sometimes outrageous gets people to reconsider.  My perspective makes abortion outrageous, so I used cannibalism because I was sure that from everyone's perspective this would be outrageous.  I know I was pushing the envelope, but for a reason.  I see I caught your attention.  Now what you need to do is judge my thought process and not me. 

I won't be the one to judge your thought process.  The state hospital in Jamestown should judge your thought process. The only thing you made me think about is how ridiculous your comparison is. 


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worth a read for everyone, posted on their facebook page. again this is not a one size fits all cases law.

Red River Women's Clinic - Shelly Silkee
Let us please think rationally about what these Anti-Abortion bills really entail, please. Not all abortions are committed just because "this isn't wanted." North Dakota still has the highest incident of teen pregnancies per capita, and that was WITH legal abortions. So please don't be so silly. We do not have an abundance of abortions being performed - obviously. But what it does me...an is... Eptopic pregnancies will not be ended, meaning EXTREME health consequences and possibly death for the mother (and in most cases eptopic pregnancies do NOT yeild a living baby.) It means that when 2 people who love each other find out their fetus has genetic complications that mean their baby WON'T LIVE past a year will be burdened with heartbreak that is prolonged and severe. It means that a mother with severe health complications of her own will not be given precident over a fetus and could likely die (with no indication the baby lives, either. so BOTH could die?) What it means are little girls who are molested and raped will be FORCED to live with the unfortunate consequence of someone else's crime. If YOUR OWN MOTHER was forced with the decision to die or attempt an impossible delivery, would you not want YOUR OWN MOTHER to choose her life and remain in yours? Please, remove the blinders and remove the hate and disdain. These are your mothers, sisters, daughters, girlfriends, wives, best friends, neighbors, and co-workers. If YOU do not believe in abortions, by all means NOBODY will MAKE YOU GET ONE. But PLEASE do not turn a blind eye to the woman you may have condemned to a lifetime of hardship you cannot imagine, or to the woman whose death certificate you ought to be signing with your own name.

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Wags86 Said:

walleyepike1976 Said:

Scenario for all of you.  Your wife is pregnant the doc says she and the baby will die if she continues to carry.  Do you just let her die even if you can save her by her having an abortion?  Serious question.  Just so you know where I stand Im going to save my wife. 

scenarios like this is where laws like this scare me.That and rape victims. Gosh what a touchy subject this is.

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Chargers Said:
worth a read for everyone, posted on their facebook page. again this is not a one size fits all cases law.

Red River Women's Clinic - Shelly Silkee
Let us please think rationally about what these Anti-Abortion bills really entail, please. Not all abortions are committed just because "this isn't wanted." North Dakota still has the highest incident of teen pregnancies per capita, and that was WITH legal abortions. So please don't be so silly. We do not have an abundance of abortions being performed - obviously. But what it does me...an is... Eptopic pregnancies will not be ended, meaning EXTREME health consequences and possibly death for the mother (and in most cases eptopic pregnancies do NOT yeild a living baby.) It means that when 2 people who love each other find out their fetus has genetic complications that mean their baby WON'T LIVE past a year will be burdened with heartbreak that is prolonged and severe. It means that a mother with severe health complications of her own will not be given precident over a fetus and could likely die (with no indication the baby lives, either. so BOTH could die?) What it means are little girls who are molested and raped will be FORCED to live with the unfortunate consequence of someone else's crime. If YOUR OWN MOTHER was forced with the decision to die or attempt an impossible delivery, would you not want YOUR OWN MOTHER to choose her life and remain in yours? Please, remove the blinders and remove the hate and disdain. These are your mothers, sisters, daughters, girlfriends, wives, best friends, neighbors, and co-workers. If YOU do not believe in abortions, by all means NOBODY will MAKE YOU GET ONE. But PLEASE do not turn a blind eye to the woman you may have condemned to a lifetime of hardship you cannot imagine, or to the woman whose death certificate you ought to be signing with your own name.

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walleyepike1976 Said:

Scenario for all of you.  Your wife is pregnant the doc says she and the baby will die if she continues to carry.  Do you just let her die even if you can save her by her having an abortion?  Serious question.  Just so you know where I stand Im going to save my wife. 


What if she says she would rather die then living the rest of her life with the fact that she outright killed the baby?
Are you going to force her to bend to your will?
What if the doctor happens to be wrong? What if after the child has been chopped up into pieces its revealed that both would have been fine?
There lays your son or daughter in a pile of mush.
Better think hard about what you profess.

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Westerneagle Said:

walleyepike1976 Said:

Scenario for all of you.  Your wife is pregnant the doc says she and the baby will die if she continues to carry.  Do you just let her die even if you can save her by her having an abortion?  Serious question.  Just so you know where I stand Im going to save my wife. 


What if she says she would rather die then living the rest of her life with the fact that she outright killed the baby?
Are you going to force her to bend to your will?
What if the doctor happens to be wrong? What if after the child has been chopped up into pieces its revealed that both would have been fine?
There lays your son or daughter in a pile of mush.
Better think hard about what you profess.

So what if some POS rapes a 13 year old girl? She should have to carry that child? What if there are severe complications even? 

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

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I fall in the middle on this. Im not for abortion at all, but there are extreme cases where people should have the choice. Its certainly should not be used as a form of bc, but if a mother is going to die, or the fetus, or both. There should atleast be options in place if they so choose. That and rape victims, i have no right telling them what they can and cant do under such terribly awful circumstances.

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

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flycaster Said:
 Honkers, who in the heck is saying that they don't believe in helping out children in poverty?  Show me one person who is saying that.  And tell me, when does life begin?  You "pro-choice" people fail to answer that.  Read my above posts.  Is a baby really a part of a womans body like a fingernail is?  Does it not have it's own DNA and beating heart.  A woman only is there to protect and feed the baby.  It is not just another part of the body which a woman can throw away.

What you need to do is grab an embryology book and look through the development process of a fetus.  Look at the timeline of when organs develop, more specifically.  To be honest, I have no idea when you should label something as living.  I don't agree with a mother getting an abortion for the sole purpose of "birth control."  I also don't agree with some law makers making choices for women throughout the state.  Just like I don't agree with law makers making choices about guns.  Aren't republicans supposed to want less government?  Why is it o.k. to tell someone that they can't have an abortion but not o.k. to tell someone they can't have a magazine capable of holding a hundred rounds? 

On a side note, just because of ones' thought process, does that mean they have to line up with a political party?  Is it our duty as Americans to chose left or right?  Depending on what party I've chosen, do I have to agree with every decision that party makes because that's what they typically do? 


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Westerneagle Said:

walleyepike1976 Said:

Scenario for all of you.  Your wife is pregnant the doc says she and the baby will die if she continues to carry.  Do you just let her die even if you can save her by her having an abortion?  Serious question.  Just so you know where I stand Im going to save my wife. 


What if she says she would rather die then living the rest of her life with the fact that she outright killed the baby?
Are you going to force her to bend to your will?
What if the doctor happens to be wrong? What if after the child has been chopped up into pieces its revealed that both would have been fine?
There lays your son or daughter in a pile of mush.
Better think hard about what you profess.

If that is the decision she makes then so be it.  I am not going to force her to do anything she does not want to do.  If she agreed to do it I am going to trust what the doc says that the baby was not going to live and that would be the end of it for me.
If the doc was wrong thats what malpractice suits are for and yes it would tear me up knowing that nothing needed to happen and I would live with it everyday for the rest of my life.
You may not like how i believe for myself but I think it is very narrow minded to not take all things into consideration and make as much of an educated decision as possible with something as important as this.  I refuse to let things like this be left to chance.

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It really sucks that this isnt more cut and dry. Can there be provisions made where they are allowed in extreme circumstances only? incest, rape, mother will die? Id be all for that.

Unfortunatley it seems that you either allow them or you dont. What a crappy deal all the way around. Im not gonna post on this anymore cuz this stuff just sucks to think about anyway you look at it

 

 "I get what you're saying:  Like a sausage replica featuring a Polander holding a sacred illumination device." 

 

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 Flyswatter- to me life begins when they are able to survive outside of the womb. When's that....somewhere between 20-25 weeks. There I answered it for ya. Now ridicule, beat me down, tell me I'm wrong but still not changing my opinion. Here's a little more of my background. Born and raised catholic. Baptized catholic. Confirmed catholic. Haven't been to church since besides weddings or funerals. Ready go!!! And no I'm not gonna comment anymore than that. Have a good day meow

cant drink all day unless you start in the morning.
Im only one man
GET SOME!!!!!

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 Thought I'd add this snippet from an article by Judge Andrew Napolitano. I'll include the link to the entire article which I encourage all to read. It gives more specifics on the Roe v. Wade decision. Here's just part of it:

In the past 39 years, American physicians have performed more than 50 million abortions. Abortion is the most frequent medical procedure performed in the U.S. The linchpin to Roe vs. Wade is the Court's rationale that because the decision to undergo an abortion ordinarily occurs between patient and physician, and because that interaction ordinarily takes place in private, the right to privacy insulates abortion from the reach of the State. Roe vs. Wade itself does not define the right to an abortion, but it does unambiguously declare that the baby in the womb is not a person, and that the right to privacy phttp://lewrockwell.com/napolitano/napolitano38.1.htmlrotects the mother's decision to kill the baby.

Did you catch that? The Supreme Court declared that the baby in the womb is not a person. When it made that declaration, it rejected dozens of decisions of other courts, in America and in Great Britain, holding that the baby in the womb is a person. This is reminiscent of the Supreme Court's infamous Dred Scott decision in 1857 in which it ruled that blacks were not persons. In both cases, it cited no precedent, it gave no rational basis, and in Roe vs. Wade, it merely said that because philosophers, physicians and lawyers could not agree on whether babies in wombs are persons, it would declare them not to be persons.

If the baby in the womb is a person, then all abortion is unlawful. That's because of the constitutional protection for all persons. The Constitution unambiguously prohibits the government from impairing or permitting others to impair the life, liberty and property of persons without due process. Here's my political beef with so-called pro-life politicians in both parties. In the years in which the pro-life Ronald Reagan and both Presidents Bush were in the White House, from time to time, both chambers of Congress had pro-life majorities. Did you see any legislation passed that declared a baby in the womb to be a person? No. This could have been done by a simple majority vote and presidential signature, and Roe vs. Wade, and all the killing it spawned, would have ended.

How scary is this? The Supreme Court declares a class of humanity not to be persons, and then permits people to destroy the members of the class. That's what happened to blacks during slavery; that was the philosophical argument underlying the Holocaust; that's what is happening to babies in the womb today; and that might become the basis for the government killing persons it hates or fears in the future. It will declare them to be non-persons.

Is the baby in the womb a person? Of course babies in wombs are persons. From the moment of the union of egg and sperm, there is present a fully actualizable human genome; meaning all the genetic material necessary for post-birth existence is there. And the parents of that union are human beings. With human parents and a human genome, what else could a baby in a womb be but a person? If you have any doubt, why not give the benefit of that doubt to life, rather than to death? Unless you prefer death to life and killing to nurturing and misery to joy, I expect you agree.

Since you have been reading this essay, 10 babies have lost their lives, as abortions occur in the U.S. about two and a half times a minute. How long can a society last when we cannot protect the weakest among us, and when we destroy them out of convenience, and when we make that destruction legal? Who will be destroyed next?

Link: 

-Justin

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Pro-abortion people, who in the hell is saying that a baby can't be aborted to save the mothers life?  Even the Catholic church doesn't believe in that.  There is no one saying that.  You believe it is said because of the stereo types you have.

Again, I ask the pro-abortion people, when does life start?  I see no one is willing to answer.

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-Justin

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flycaster Said:
Pro-abortion people, who in the hell is saying that a baby can't be aborted to save the mothers life?  Even the Catholic church doesn't believe in that.  There is no one saying that.  You believe it is said because of the stereo types you have.

Again, I ask the pro-abortion people, when does life start?  I see no one is willing to answer.

At Conception.  There now Ive said it.  And I still will not change my view.
and just for the record agian i dont believe it should be used as birth control but should be allowed in extreme cases and up to the end of the first trimester not 6 weeks like the ND law we are discussing.

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Westerneagle Said:

walleyepike1976 Said:

Scenario for all of you.  Your wife is pregnant the doc says she and the baby will die if she continues to carry.  Do you just let her die even if you can save her by her having an abortion?  Serious question.  Just so you know where I stand Im going to save my wife. 


What if she says she would rather die then living the rest of her life with the fact that she outright killed the baby?
Are you going to force her to bend to your will?
What if the doctor happens to be wrong? What if after the child has been chopped up into pieces its revealed that both would have been fine?
There lays your son or daughter in a pile of mush.
Better think hard about what you profess.

western, if that fetus was gay would you still support its rights???

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walleyepike1976 Said:

Scenario for all of you.  Your wife is pregnant the doc says she and the baby will die if she continues to carry.  Do you just let her die even if you can save her by her having an abortion?  Serious question.  Just so you know where I stand Im going to save my wife. 

I believe the wife in this scenario has as much a right to life as the unborn child, and it would be her choice to terminate or carry the baby to term. This whole debate centers on when does life begin, conception, a detectable heartbeat, delivery, or somewhere in between.  I will never understand how late term babies are not considered a human life and can legally be terminated in the womb given the fact they could survive just fine outside the womb. Its a fine line for sure.

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