SB 2351 - Relating hunting over bait (2009)

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bdog's picture
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I am not for or against baiting. I like and expect government and people to deal in facts period. All you presented were opinions about TB spreading less without bait. But who knows. I do know that not once did you mention the real problem . Rancher practices.

What you propose is fixing the engine when the problem is the tranny.

Last post from me on this one.

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I recently talked to the Game and Fish and wrote an e-mail on behalf of Sporting Chance to address the point about the physically disabled. It sounds like this will not be a problem and they will work with the organizations to allow baiting. You can check out what Chris Grondahl has to say on Dakota Prairie Outdoors at the link below.
http://dakotaprairieoutdoors.com/ 1-28 and 1-29 shows

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This one has been a tough call for me so I did some checking or web surfing as it is more commonly called to see what other states are doing. First of all this bill is being pitched as a way to prevent or reduce the chances that diseases will be spread. I wonder if there is just one disease they have in mind or all of them. Some of the more common diseases associated with deer are EHD (Blue tongue) and CWD, but let

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Hardwaterman
Did the G&F hire you to be thier spokesman on this site 24-7 with your non stop ban baiting campaign?

Its funny all these post and there are only like 3 or 4 that are for an all out ban. And by the looks of it about 50-75% of the pro ban posts are yours.
Let some of the others speak for themselves, that is if there are others like you.

 

"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the American Government take care of him;better take a closer look at the American Indian."
Henry Ford

 

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kdm, glad you came off the fence. But you like bdog and others are spinning this as if banning of bait is an absolute guarantee that we will not have disease outbreaks. You own data can be used to show the effectiveness of bait bans or limits just as easily by showing that the rate of occurrence is lessened and when disease does appear remains very localized.

Like I said before, claiming harm to hunting is not going offset the dollar figures that will be presented that will be lost if we lose our TB free status because deer from the MN side are baited into ND.

So contact your Leg and express your concerns, include your Internet search data as well. Then at least you and others will not say your side of this issue did not get heard!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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KDM - Thanks for posting your findings, seems like some like to continue to say bring me the studies. Logic and common sense needs to com into play which some seem to overlook. I think you can draw the conclusion from reading the posts that there are underlying reasons for and against baiting.
The outbreaks in the livestock herds are examples that laws don't prevent disease outbreaks, not at all blaming the livestock producers, I'm sure they didn't choose to have the problem either. TB can be spread as an airborne disease - no touch needed, haven't heard that being promoted by the anti's either. If you really want to look at disease resistance from an animal husbandry standpoint a healthy, well fed and cared for animal is less succeptable to disease than a starving animal. Maybe we should have a law requiring all wildlife to be fed and kept healthy?? Common sense and logic would take care of that idea also!

I would encourage everyone to get out to the country and see who is feeding the wildlife, especially on a winter like this. I think we can thank landowners and habitat promoters for the wildlife that everyone else wants to manage.

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Hardwater

I am asking you this, in what way will this bill stop deer from coming in contact with cattle? I know you are a very smart person so answer that. I agree on the fact that the hoarding of wildlife and dumping trucks full of bait to hoard wildlife is not right and that should be regulated. If disease was truely the issue and the deer populations were in jepordy our ND Game & Fish should have put an end to it already. The bow hunter that puts out a 5 gal. pail of bait is not the problem.

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Spelled (jeopardy) wrong sorry.

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Baw I am sure no matter how clear this is you will revert to your idea that this is intended to prevent and stop any and all disease and make every deer never come in contact with a cow or another deer.

So here goes. It is about removing a practice that increases(note the word "increases") behavioral activity of the deer that are known causes for disease transmission. A pile of bait 5 gal or less can create an environment that is as bad or worse than a big pile depending on how many deer frequent the site.

bingo gave a description of feeding pail calves and how slobbered up a bucket can get. The same thing happens with baiting as well.

This bill is not going to as I said guarantee that no diseases will ever occur,nor will it guarantee that disease will not spread. However as I have said before, it will remove a practice that increases the likelihood of disease manifestation,increases behavior in deer that is known to cause disease spread and removes a risk that is known to increase the speed of which disease if it becomes present moves through the wild herd, both those that affect deer and also those that deer are a host and transmit it to other animals.

It will also in large baiting situations remove an artificial concentration of deer in an area which can if livestock are present reduce the deer/cow contact.

BAW all of this has been explained before, but you refuse to look at the facts. I am sure you will come up with another question or comment that has been addressed before but your glued to the over the top concept that this bill is intended to be the cure all of disease!

This bill is not going to stop EHD for example from occurring, or anthrax which is present in the ground all across the state and appears in cattle and deer when weather conditions are right. It may keep CWD out of the herd, it can and does reduce the chance that TB or other disease that can be passed from cattle to deer and back to cattle from spreading faster than it otherwise would.

It will not prevent deer from yarding up, but it can affect how many yard in an area which is one factor that all who understand the disease transmission issue agree elevates the risk.

We are not going to change Ag practices in regards to types of crops planted,fall tillage and such that create opportunities for yarding. To attempt to do that most likely will result in the Leg ordering the elimination of deer as the economic impact of hunting is a good number pales in comparison to raising of grains and such.

We already have education programs that provide information to cattlemen on how to reduce the risks of deer/cow contact. I have never disagreed that more emphasis needs to be put on this side of the aisle.

I am a realist in understanding that we will not get the Leg to act in setting standards in this area. One only needs to look at the issue regarding semi trailer rear collision protection. The Feds mandated states change or lose Fed Highway funds. ND sought an exemption instead and now we lose $100,000.00 a month in Fed money as a penalty.

So as a hunter, I do not want to see parts of the state be targeted for removal of all deer because of a disease outbreak, but as a hunter I understand it may happen, and so I am taking the approach that if we do have to kill deer in an area I want that area to be as small as possible.

Most people I know who hunt or raise cattle or do both get the gravity of this issue. Many do not want any changes or want limits on size. All but a few understand that baiting does increase risks, what they are split on is a willingness to give up a practice they like to do.

In that group there are people who oppose baiting strickly from an ethics point of view. Myself I have issues with some baiting practices and ethics and have never said otherwise. There are others who bait and feed deer that do not hunt and do not like hunting. We have a landowner back in my area who is like this. Purposely starts feeding deer in late Oct to get them programed to his land and does not allow any hunting.

So there is a wide variety of opinions and reasons etc... out there. All those opinions and ideas though really get trumped if one looks at the fact that bait and feeding create increased risks to the health and welfare of both livestock and the deer themselves.Both which if you think about it just a bit will have negative impacts economically. The key is how big that impact will be and by changing some activities we remove one factor that can have a very,very large impact.

If our cost to export cattle from the state takes a sharp jump. That affects the retailer in small town ND as well as the large cities. That affects tax revenue to the state and the impact rolls on and on.

When I read some of the comments that it will take people out of bow hunting, I look at the number of bow hunters, the dollars they spend and compare that to the losses that would occur in the Ag sector and it becomes a no brainier as they say.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Roads a danger to pheasants
By LAUREN DONOVAN
Bismarck Tribune
REGENT - The countryside around Regent is a ringneck refugee camp.

Thousands of the brilliant cocks and dun-colored hens are crowding highways, farmyards and moving into town for food and shelter.

The highway shoulders where the game birds emerge to peck for seed and gravel - lining both sides of Highway 21 as far as the eye could see one afternoon this week - have become carnage zones.

Hundreds of road-killed birds litter the road surface and highway ditches. Other pheasants are cannibalizing them, whether for meat or for what's in their crop, no one knows.

Regent's Enchanted Highway, with its world-famous metal sculptures, is not so enchanting just now.

It's unsettling.

The still and mutilated birds with other pheasants feeding on them are a morbid contrast to the beauty of the snowy landscape in the high butte country in this part of the state. It's that snow pheasants are trying to escape by moving onto open roads and road shoulders.

August Kirschemann of rural Regent estimates he's got 5,000 birds living around some empty bins just on the south side of Highway 21.

"It's really been a zoo. I don't know what to do," he said. He figures the pheasants are attracted to last summer's stunted and still-standing wheat that was "zeroed out" for crop insurance purposes.

If they're still there come planting time, he says, "they'll eat the seed right out of the ground. They're a pretty bird, but too much is too much."

The pheasants have many human friends around Regent, partly because they're such a vital part of the dollar stream into town.

Birds that don't fly into the grill of a fast-moving semi or zig-zag under a rolling tire have a good chance of being fed by someone like Alan Honeyman, who lives just outside Regent.

Honeyman estimates he has 4,000 birds living in his shelter-belted farmyard, where he rolls out feed every other day.

So far, he's rolled out some 50 wheat bales and shoveled out truckloads of expensive corn and millet for the birds.

His place is just off Highway 21, and he's scraped snow down to the bare ground in his yard in hopes the birds will remain there to peck for gravel rather than move out to the road.

Still, roadkill is a daily fact of life.

"The highway casualties, I've never seen anything like it, not even in the '97," Honeyman said. "All those dead birds, I don't care for it, but there's nothing I can do."

He'll spend $7,000 to feed pheasants this winter. He's in the fee hunting business, and even though it's a fair dent in any profit, he says it's part of the cost of that kind of economy.

"I'm not complaining. I'm willing to do my part. They're not 'my' birds. They're here, and I'll feed them, and in the spring they'll scatter to the four winds," he said.

Down at the Cannonball Co. office in Regent, manager Nicole Haase said the fate of the birds and the dead birds along highways in and out of town concerns everyone.

Cannonball Co. is a landowner cooperative. It draws hundreds of in- and out-of-state pheasant hunters every fall to hunt the tree rows, river breaks and idled crop land where pheasants flourish. This year, Cannonball hunters harvested 5,700 birds.

Haase said the company board recently sent a letter to cooperative members detailing where to purchase seed screenings and other feed supplies.

"Everyone's concerned and providing whatever feed they can," she said.

Company guide Curt Honeyman said most landowners around Regent are putting out feed for the pheasants, in the form of wheat and safflower screenings, or the unharvested stunted wheat that was rolled into bales at the end of a dry hot summer.

"Every farmstead within 10 miles of Regent's probably got at least 500 to 1,000 birds and if they're feeding cattle, the pheasants are following the cattle (for "recycled" feed)," he said.

Curt Honeyman said he'd guess more pheasants are road-killed than dying of starvation around Regent. It's a weird good news-bad news kind of thing, because the reason the high number of road-killed birds is so evident is because there are so many birds to begin with.

The living birds, especially those strutting out from a farmstead that's supplying feed, are reportedly nice and plump through the breast, he said.

He figures that with so many birds to start with, a good number will survive the winter unless there's another devastating snow storm.

That's Honeyman's worry, too.

"If we don't feed 'em, they'll die off if we get a bad storm. If they've got food and shelter, they'll make it," he said.

For now, anyone traveling in Hettinger County, particularly through the Regent area, would be well advised to drive at a moderate speed.

The pheasants would appreciate time to scoot out of the way. It also could save having to replace a broken headlight, or dented grill, the kind of work that's keeping local garages busy this winter with so many birds out on the road.

(Reach reporter Lauren Donovan at 888-303-5511 or lauren@;westriv.com.)

Yeah, I guess we need to ban baiting and feeding of big game. So they can head over to the pheasant buffet! LOL!

Ron, what are you going to do about this?

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We have talked to Game & Fish and tried to get an exemption for our Sporting Chance hunts before the bill was introduced. They were not interested in any exemptions to the baiting ban even if it was for disabled hunters. Thanks to all of the support of everyone that has been calling your representatives and voicing your opinions it appears they are taking a second look at this issue. Game & Fish called this week and said they are now thinking about trying to work with the disabled hunters for an exemption. I know Senator Olafson does not want to allow any exemptions. We appreciate the effort but we still need to voice our concerns and we must make sure the senator and our legislators understand our position to ensure an exemption is made. Game & Fish has worked with Sporting Chance to make many of our hunts possible in the past and I am sure it will be the same way in the future. Chris Grondahl has made a special effort to hear our concerns and try to work with Sporting Chance.

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Hardwater

Dang you are a well spoken person that likes to talk. I have one more question with all that you have said. Now people don't take this the wrong way because the idea of Sportsman Clubs helping the disabled people get out to shoot or view deer is awsome. But here it goes and don't shoot me, how can you make exceptions to your rules and ideas for groups of people feeding wildlife?

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HUNT,

You don't have to worry about anything.  The deer know what is meant for the pheasants and they will stay out of that pheasant feed.

BAW,

You don't have to worry about the groups either.  Diseased deer know that they must stay out of those types of bait piles or bait plots.  So no worry there either.

-Tim Sandstrom


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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BAW, if you read my post to easydecoy, you will understand that for me the exception rule would have to be only for approved groups. Something you may not know is that I have in the past worked with and helped a wheel chair bound hunter in harvesting his deer. None of the times did we hunt over any bait.

So to qualify organizations would need to meet critera in regards to the type of person they intend to take out etc.. There are not that many groups doing this that they would pose a problem especially if the baiting was done for a short duration and once the hunt was complete they removed the residual bait from the area.

I can understand the reason you ask this,because you want to say gotcha!! Well it is not that simple. We all know that these groups are of a very small number, could be easily monitored unlike the general hunting community. Type of bait could be controlled, amount, and even time the bait can be placed. Not realistic restrictions that could be enforce in the hunting community again.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Hardwaterman,

There are more people feeding wildlife from their back porches than there are bow hunters baiting deer.  Does your logic apply to that then?

Tim Sandstrom


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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Hardwater

I'm not going to say Gotcha, that would be childish. But please read some of your own post from the beginning and tell me how making exceptions wouldn't be going against everything you have been preaching to us. No matter how you spin it for the small number of groups.

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I have to kind of agree.  There does seem to be a lot of back tracking.

Tim Sandstrom


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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easydecoy,

Can you send me the photo you submitted to the site?  For whatever reason it didn't come into the database properly.

tsandstrom@fishingbuddy.com

Tim Sandstrom


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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Hardwater

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Tim Sandstrom
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jackson,

Obviously you are referring to my response and I'm afraid you are taking things out of context.  But, whatever, I'll keep plugging away.

By the way, I can't believe you wouldn't be on my side more than Hardwaterman.  He feels its okay to feed wildlife.  He also feels it's okay to allow some groups to continue to bait when others cannot.  In addition, if you read the 2007 talk forum than you will see I have actually switched my belief in that if we are to ban bait we must do so in the name of disease.  I have supported my thoughts on this in the talk forum.  Not quite sure why Hardwaterman is crowned the King when his bait ban is much weaker than mine.

Although, I have also stated if we work on a compromise I feel it would be the best case scenario.  The opposition doesn't want to do a compromise so in that case, I have no choice than to support a bill that places the burden on everyone equally.

Tim Sandstrom


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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So for those that assume I am back sliding, fine! I look at the situation with groups that decoy represents as being in a class deserving of consideration all on their own because of the service they provide.

In just about every law we have there are exceptions made for valid reasons or use. One only needs to look and you will find this to be the case. I know the fear of allowing any exceptions is that where do you draw the line, and frankly I cannot fault the bill carrier or the G&F for taking that position. The exceptions need to be based on providing for those who without the use of bait would not have any other option otherwise like the handicap parking stickers we will see it abused.

This is why I stated that the exceptions have to be granted by permit and to organizations. Not to anyone who might claim to have a need for various reasons.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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I didn't have time to read all the above so sorry if this is redundant. Why don't they just say what it really is. It's ok to bait if your a farmer but not if your not a farmer. Pretty simple really.

 

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There is an issue that has never been discussed unless I missed it. It is apparent there are a lot of deer taken over bait in North Dakota in a year. Many of these deer taken are concurrent doe tags. These extra doe tags are issued to reduce the size of our deer herd. There is definately a factor of the number of deer shot over bait that reduces the spread or prevention of disease. It appears that ND is doing something right since we do not have the disease problems that our neighbors do. It appears this must be baiting since it is the only thing we are doing different then our neighbors that have ban baiting.

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Ray B.

Do a little searching on WHENn those neighboring states that you speak of FIRST documented cases of diseases such as TB, CWD, etc. Did those diseases first show up while baiting was allowed in those states or after it was banned in those states?

I'm pretty sure you will find that AT THAT TIME, those neighboring states did allow baiting so your theory that ND allowing baiting is the factor that keeps us from having diseases is bogus. Sorry man.

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One more hole in that theory...look how many baiting violations occur in those neighboring states...especially MN. It may be illegal, but it is still occuring in the neighboring states just like it is legally occuring in ND. That makes it pretty much impossible to say that because ND allows baiting, that is the thing we are doing right that is preventing disease. Sorry again.

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I am curious to why Wisconsin only has a partial feeding and baiting ban. Would this not work in ND should they decide to vote this bill through? I only ask because when I think CWD, the fist state that comes to mind is Wisconsin. You'd think they would have put an all out ban on also.

"When we step into the outdoors, we have the privilege of standing in the presence of God through the power and majesty of His creation. That makes hunting more than a sport or a hobby. It's a calling to something greater. And that transforms the places that we stand into something more than a cropfield or a pasture or a mountain. It makes that place Hallowed Ground."

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ND currently has a partial feeding and baiting ban. It is not allowed everywhere, just like in WI.

There are states that allow baiting that have documented CWD in captive and/or wild cervid populations. There are also states that don't allow baiting that documented CWD in captive and/or wild cervid populations either before or after baiting was banned. There are also states that allow baiting that have never documented CWD in captive and/or wild cervid populations (ND is one of these). There are also states that do not allow baiting and have never documented CWD in captive and/or wild cervid populations.
Some states have only had documented cases in captive animals and some states have only documented cases in wild animals.

What all of this tells me is that CWD obviously doesn't start from hunters baiting deer. However once the disease is found in a state (or occurs in a state even though it has not yet been found), it is impossible to know if or how much baiting might affect the spread of the disease. Maybe a lot, maybe not at all, maybe somewhere in between.

However, the only theory I can debunk based on everything I have learned about where this disease occurs in respect to the baiting bans or lack there of in those areas is: allowing baiting in no way can possibly prevent diseases such as CWD and TB. Several states such as Montana are proof of this.

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solo this has been covered, it was regulated not from a science or enforcement position, but from the Leg who ignored all the recommendations from experts in regards to this issue.

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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If a baiting was harmful to the wildlife the NDGF has the power to get rid of it. There are some that just won't stop with the subject. NDGF are making the elected officials decide what is right for the wildlife instead of doing their frickin job if it is that dangerous to the deer.

Ethics - I hear is alot in the big baiting debate. What is ethics?

Can you enter a P&Y or B&C animal that was taken over bait? You can't with archery equipment that is deemed unethical, how about a truckload of bait?

Bowhunters are the selfish ones.... that's what I have read. Are you kidding me? A bowhunter can't shoot a deer standing 400 yards away Einstein! People don't usually hunt with bait during gun season because the don't have to get the deer into 30 yards.

There could be statistic after statistic thrown at those of you against baiting and it wouldn't matter. You are not worried about the da*n deer, you just don't like it. Nothing is gonna change that fact.

Bottom line: If baiting was/could/will kill wildlife or cattle, the G&F would have already done it. You don't wait til you have the disease to immunize.


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