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No mock scrapes for me. Natural buck with stinky urine scrapes, yes. No artificial scent besides occasionally what I might spray on my boots to mask some scent. None of this relates to a deers most basic need of food. I prefer to hunt deer rather than fool them.
kjs, you can make the argument,but unlike those who argue that disease spreads quicker through baiting you would be making it without any scientific evidence to back your claim!!!!!
When cattlemen see an increase in cost of production of $25.00 or more per head plus their labor and a reduction in market value for their cattle who is going to win this argument?
The guy that wants to continue shooting deer over bait or the rancher who is going to be hit financially? That is the facts being given to the Leg on this issue. Farnorth listed the only testimony that really will matter.
Politicians are survivalist by nature and this is going to be a no brainier, unlike last time this issue came up, the supporters of the ban did not have the cattlemen on their side, they do this time.
Hey I could be wrong, but I do not think I am!
In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!
I think this proposed ban has more to do with an ethics fight and little to do with disease fears. Who cares, I just hope it goes away after this session one way or the other.
Obviously I don't want it to come to sharpshooters.
I was just making the point that I think the biggest threat to deer and the spreading of disease comes from overpopulation and banning baiting won't help with this problem and IMHO will increase the deer population and may lead to increased disease, rather than decrease.
But what do I know - I think I've been wrong a time or two before. Guess I'll manage to get by somehow regardless of how this turns out.
"I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to become a vegetarian."
Our hunting heritage is important. We are protected in ND by a constitutional amendment. That offers some protection but some things can be restricted.
As for the hunting shows, I'm not suggesting banning them. You really should take a look at what is going on out there because there is some stuff that would really not be something that we want the general public to view regularly. Fortunately, for us,they don't.
As for your question to shed, I already posted why I think it is different. It comes down to general perception. The animal is just as dead but baiting is seen as unfair but mock scrapes, and scents are perceived as hunters using their wits and cunning. It may seem like a small difference but it's not.
I can take you out to a 20 acre food/bait plot of sunflowers and show you around 250-300 deer right now. They've been in it for weeks peeing, crapping, bedding, licking each other.
I've never seen anything even remotely like it, surely if there ever was going to be disease to be spread this would be the place! This is a place that the new out of state hunting land leeches have locked up tight not allowing anyone access to hunt, you know practicing QDM that they learned on tv I guess.
So what do we do about this situation?? These animals never leave it, that can't be healthy for the herd.
MN has a ban on baiting, how has this helped the situation over there? From what I have heard it hasn't. I am all for restrictions, but an all out ban is not the answer IMO. GNF is blowing smoke when they say that bait pile size would be harder to enforce.
I agree with you that alot of those shows are getting out of hand. That's the main reason I stopped watching them. I think if more people would stop watching them, they would change their format.
Has the baiting ban in WI helped them any? I don't think so. Tell me one thing, how is hunting near an apple tree any different from hunting near another tree where I dumped a bucket of apples? Do you really think the deer know the difference between an apple tree and a cottonwood?
Hardwaterman--I as stated above do not care if they ban baiting or not but they must do so on the lines of preventing disease IMO. Unfortunately, in seeing some of Olafson comments, this is not completely the case. He uses the disease issue but also the fact that people that bait are "hoarding" wildlife which are some of the comments he has heard. The issue here is the wording of the bill as it states. We as a hunting community can help make sure if passed, that it is fair to all those involved.
"When we step into the outdoors, we have the privilege of standing in the presence of God through the power and majesty of His creation. That makes hunting more than a sport or a hobby. It's a calling to something greater. And that transforms the places that we stand into something more than a cropfield or a pasture or a mountain. It makes that place Hallowed Ground."
I didn't know deer respected the CWD "no travel zone." So it's safe to say those deer do not walk across the county line?
Anyway, I told you above that lets cut to the chase and build the bill for the reason of disease. What I am angered about is how ethics was used. Heck, it is the point that Olafson wanted to allow the feeding of wildlife. Even you have to admit that leaving something so key like that is very hypocritical and not stepping up to the issue at hand.
I will support the bill if they take all the "reasonable" steps. I am not going to support the idea of "Section 4" but I will say in a very suggestive manner that it does make a great point.
Oh and HW, I some how wrongly insulted Farnorth and I apologized or at least explained I did not mean it that way. I ask the same from you in lumping me into a master baiter crowd. You have no idea how I hunt. Apparently, you don't realize I am supporting a ban on bait either (again, only if feeding of wildlife is included). My only agenda here was to let it be known that those believing a bait ban is going to make them feel ethically cleansed and the ban will alleviate the so called bait wars and wildlife hoarding are grossly mistaken.
After reading the rest of your post maybe the folks who drafted and support this bill should consider a "Section 4." It's plain silly to think that removing bait piles from the state landscape is going to save their cattle from getting TB. Heck, it already happened down in the southwest portion of the state. Like I said, there is much more concern over an infected cow getting in contact with a deer and vice versa. The "meeting" place won't be a bait pile if my gut feeling on this bills passing comes true. Perhaps then I can say, "I told you so."
There is hidden agendas in this bill's birth and you know it. But I chose to let that slide but ONLY if they start doing the right things.
My thoughts on the
I think one thing is a reality. There are locations in the state where deer cannot be patterned. The locations in the central part of the state with a slough over every hill, 1,000s of acres of CRP and - most importantly - lower that average deer numbers.
I think those are the real losers if baiting is not allowed. I am not advocating baiting just stating a fact.
Whitesmoke, Im all for people hunting how you describe, kudos to you. But, should people be forced to do it? What does it hurt if someone has a family, full time job (or two these days) and wants to get some deer meat without putting in a ton of time sitting in a stand? Baiting wont, in almost all cases, land an inexperienced hunter a trophy buck, but it may make it easier for them to stick an extra doe or two. Is that so bad?
The disease card the G&F is playing is completely theoretical and from what I have found, has no 'science' to back it up. It is OPINION without facts or research.
Here is a GREAT idea! Lets pass a law to ban something which MIGHT help prevent something which DOESN'T EXIST (in our deer population) to begin with.
I totally agree. It's like what Farnorth said, there is only one way to really hunt bears in some places. Same is true with bow hunting whitetails in ND. The reality will be hunters probably quiting hunting because the land they hunt is less than feasible or will require even more time to pattern deer. Another reality is the places that are prime for bow hunting will be hit harder as an influx of hunters go looking for more feasible land.
Opps, meant that first line to go to Jacksonz, sorry whitesmoke...
What type of land do you hunt? Private, public? Is it prime for bow hunting? Well, I can go as far as saying try hunting harder land once.
But I won't be like that. I was going to argue with you on the food plot versus bait pile concept but it's obvious some folks refuse to admit it. There is nothing more efficient for wildlife especially when incorporated with existing habitat. Just ask the NDGF.
It kind of reminds me of my first muzzleloader tag. I knew a food plot was standing along the lake shore. I had never been there specifically to hunt and surely wasn't there to do any scouting. I decided to go down there and sit on the food plot. I had 26 deer come and go that evening and I took a shot at a decent buck but some how missed. Buck fever combined with a muzzleloader I guess. But by definition, I guess I was lazy because I didn't put in thousands of hours of scout time. Nevermind the fact I simply used my head and simply went to a food source to hunt. When I get my next muzzleloader tag I will check to see if it has a food plot.
Okay, I will quit with the food plot thing. If it isn't clear that's fine. That means I can assume those who disagree with me won't be hunting over a food plot and creating competition for me. That I will enjoy.
You really didn't insult my intelligence. Actually some of the early discussion did and I forgot that my post started out directed at you. No apology was really necessary.
This is such an emotional subject for a lot of people. I don't have strong opinions on the overall topic but I do think we need to focus the discussion at times without getting too extreme.
HUNTNFISH had a good question. Minnesota bans baiting for deer. It didn't stop them from having the TB problem. Unfortunately, in MN, deer have been proven to help spread the TB. I don't know how to stop this but I really am concerned about what COULD happen here.
A great deal of what I have posted was designed to play devil's advocate and focus the discussion. If there is one unshakeable belief I have, it is that non-hunters will ultimately decide where baiting goes and they are almost universally repulsed by Bambi getting shot while he has his head in a bait pile.
Maybe banning baiting isn't the only answer but we have to get this under control sooner rather than later.
I talked to my brother about this and he said he would quit hunting. He has one weekend and usually only one day to hunt. I don't bait and it wouldn't bother me to see it banned, but this may cause some problems down the road. Lots of posts in the recent past have been about contacting congressman and getting involved. Well there is strength in numbers. If we alienate a segment of sportsmen who bait and then don't have the votes/political pressure to stop a bill when we really need to, we really can't blame the anti's or anyone else but ourselves. I really do not think my brothers attitude is unique. We already have problems with numbers of sportsmen and voting shortfalls. Do we want to make it worse???? This is a tough one for me to call. I'll have to think on it some more.
Good point but there are really three categories of hunters viewing this issue. Those opposed to baiting, those who support it, and those who could go either way.
And it stinks being in the either way category!
I just sent off my comments regarding the four shore line bill and will send off my comments on the bait bill shortly. Suppose I will insult Olafson or other supporting members to the bill if I send them my version as my comments to everyone? Ha!
there is also a difference between throwing out a truckload of grain to bring the deer in and keep them there and throwing out a gallon bucket of grain to stop the deer that are already there.
I agree Tim, the either way stinks, but I guess now I have to go up one level and look at what is good for sportsmen as a whole. What are the ramifications 10 years from now of each option? The Jury is still out. I need some thinking fluid. I'm always much more intelligent then. LOL!
kdm your point is well taken. I'm sure the anti-hunting crowd will love that we're fighting amongst ourselves. I also doubt we'll ever reach consensus over this issue.
I have baited on a small scale (10-20 customers) and my success was no different than sitting by a trail without bait. Sometimes they came in and sometimes not (mostly not). Perhaps I'm a poor master...
Let's say bait piles are banned and the previous larger scale baiters do quit baiting and decide to focus their efforts on bait plots. We still end up with large amounts of deer being "hoarded".
I think both practices should be banned together or not at all.
No food plots do not equate to a pile of corn. They are superior.
In regard to spot and stalk hunts (which I assume is what you are getting at with Montana and Wyoming) that's a whole different ball game. For the record, that's the style of hunting I love the most. Haven't harvested an animal though. I seem to keep handicapping myself with passing up animals hoping the next one is bigger. Oh well, that's the fun of the hunt.
There'd be lot less of a problem with animals spreading disease around baits, food plots, or yarding up in the winter or chewing up farmer's bales if sportsmen out there would do their part for the resource and KILL MORE DOES! Maybe after this winter it won't be necessary or even available anymore.
The people who are ruining this are the morons who dump truckloads of corn on their land to attract deer from their neighbors. People who use a 5 gallon pail full of corn to bow hunt over for a weekend are trying to bring a deer in closer to make the most ethical harvest they can. How many people go out fishing without bait? Are we going to have to use a bare hook to fish with? If the bill passes, I'll be putting in food plots anyways. I don't understand these local politcians...what are thinking? If the people that are dumping truckloads of corn by the neighbors property are a problem. Limit the size of the bait pile or something, don't just ban it altogether!
Tim first off, I do not put you in the classification of master baiter's. So if I offended you with that, I apologize.
Let's look at a couple of examples listed so far.One poster pointed to a sunflower field and the congregation of deer in that field. This is a prime example of what happens when conditions get tough as I eluded to in the MN and WI studies. Not much anyone can do in regards to this. It is what happens in nature. Granted farming practices have some influence on this but deer yard in the winter, always have and always will.
Yes disease risks increase in a herd when deer yard, but these deer are spread out over an area of 20 acres not 200 square feet.
Can we guarantee a TB free herd in ND with a baiting ban? To that I will say the answer is No. Can we minimize the risk by banning baiting, to that the answer is Yes!
Is there science to support baiting, well even in states down south where baiting was recommended are now pulling back from it. The impact to habitat when baiting stops is taking its toll.
Cody brings up a point about thinning the herd. G&F have turned the corner in a number of units but are struggling with others and cannot even sell all the tags not because of lack of interest but lack of access. Funny the area that prompted this bill is one of those regions. Landowners who allow hunting see few deer during season, but sure see them when season ends and the feeding stops.
Thus the comments about hoarding of animals. Artificial concentration of deer during a period of time when they should by normal habits be spread out if not for the easy meal of cracked corn dumped on the ground.
So go ahead and tell the committee that you or someone you know will quit hunting if bait is banned. Tell them that the G&F need to put out more tags and you will have the neighbors of the big baiter's tell you that deer do not leave the grounds with bait and only horned animals are shot on that ground and then the G&F will wave the unsold tags in the air to underscore the fact.
If you haven't already sent your version of the bill to Sen Olafson, you should do so. In fact, I know him really well and was going to point out the thread to him to read. Disease is a hot topic in cattle business and with disease in mn, and deer numbers in 2C, I see the concern for this bill. Pass or not pass - I will still find a way to fill my buck tag and four doe tags.
Be sure to have Olafson put something in the bill for the boys in the Cattle Business to have high fences around the feed lots so the deer don't give the cattle TB or any other disease.