SB 2351 - Relating hunting over bait (2009)

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littlebuck's picture
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Well, I'll finally put in my $0.02.

From an overall viewpoint, I guess that baiting is a topic worthy of discussion, and I understand why the purists are all up in arms. Spreading disease, congregating herds, affecting movement, not shooting decent bucks, etc. we have all heard the reasoning.

If I lived and / or hunted in a classic whitetail region I may be against it too. By this I mean where the population density is high and deer naturally lived there since the beginning.

These areas are the river bottoms (Missouri, Souris, Sheyenne, Knife, Heart etc)with feed areas on top. The deer move comfortably at last daylight and there is a pattern to the bedding/feeding behavior. You have at least a chance to shoot a mature buck moving naturally.

Other areas in the Turtle Mountains and Badlands offer these same features.

In the remainder (majority) of the state, the drift prairie is the major topographical feature and the deer movement is far different. There is no differentiation in the feeding or bedding areas. A deer can bed all day in a CRP field then wake up and feed on the clover he is laying in. Or walk in a random direction to an adjacent pea, canola, or wheat field and feed for the evening. And I mean random, as I have watched bucks bed in the same 1/4 and take off in different directions any given night.

If you happen to be a hunter who also has a full time job not within a close distance, like many of us who live in the Minot / Bismarck areas, it adds to the difficulty. I'd like to see some of the local TV stars come up to the areas I'm in (if they could get access) and even get an arrow into a doe without baiting. Doubtful.

I have about 10,000 acres to hunt on, but its all the same, with no "bedding/feeding" areas to hunt. I'm not complaining, I have it great, and wouldn't change a thing.

I run a few cuddebacks and spend all my time and quite a bit of money in pursuit of bowhunting. I guess if some the people who are againt baiting would offer me a stand in their areas where bow hunting originated it would ease my anxiety somewhat.

The winter of 2008-09 should relieve the disease pressure on whitetails going forward and decrease the population density going forward. Hopefully our state legislators will vote with a little common sense and not be sucked in to all the purist loudmouths and special interest groups who ultimately lead the charge on most issues. I also own a couple thousand acres myself and don't like being told what I can or cannot do on my own property, but that is for a different night.

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littlebuck I am going to take a copy of your post to the NRC. Your post is a classic example of what is the matter with baiting from an ethics point of view. You claim that in the prairie pot hole section that deer cannot be arrowed without bait. That is the most laughable thing I have ever heard!!!!!

It is not about the resource, or anything remotely related to hunting, it is about shooting with you based on your comments.

A couple weeks ago I watched a group of guys go out into western ND and hunt antelope, no bait, just effort and knowledge of hunting! Fun part was watching them have a good number of opportunities and also failures. Just the way it is meant to be. If those guys can arrow a speed goat out in the open then do not attempt to claim whitetail cannot be killed by bow without bait!!!!!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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I thought this wasn't about ethics, but part of me says it is. You cannot begin to compare antelope hunting to whitetails. One, they are not even somewhat related in species. Second, pronghorns are the most aggressive animal on the open plains. There rutting behavior is unbelievably amazing and by far exceeds a whitetail. Lastly, a great number of pronghorns are shot over waterholes which they usually visit midday making them far more accessible to hunting.

"When we step into the outdoors, we have the privilege of standing in the presence of God through the power and majesty of His creation. That makes hunting more than a sport or a hobby. It's a calling to something greater. And that transforms the places that we stand into something more than a cropfield or a pasture or a mountain. It makes that place Hallowed Ground."

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I guess you can take a copy to anyone you want to. Its like public record out here on the WWW.

I'm not saying its impossible, I said its difficult.

As for the rest of your response, be more specific as I'm not smart enough to understand what you are trying to say. Your comments sound like gibberish.

Antelope, if you know anything at all, are bowhunted at waterholes or decoyed during the rut. Go on out there with with just "knowledge" or "effort" as you say and tell me how many goats you miss or shoot in the guts or ass. Thats ethical. Or sit by a gate and have your friends chase them by. Get real. You can spot and stalk, but don't really expect to get one.

Based on my comments,what do you mean by "its about shooting with you?". Want some tips?

Are you referring to the fact that I've shot 10 P&Y bucks the last 10 years and haven't used more than one arrow each year?

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Hardwaterman,

Your post on the antelope was heartfelt. "Just a bunch of good guys out having fun launching arrows at speed goats".

How does that even resemble what I was talking about??? Don't even respond unless you have an answer thats not quite as retarded as your first.

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littlebuck
You just made Hardwaterman's point. It is all about shooting with you. You must have shot them all 10 over bait because in your first post you said nobody could get a doe without baiting.

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Wow...I mean, really, wow. You can't make some of this stuff up. If I didn't know better I'd think lilbuck showed up to help Hardwaterman make his case.

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bingo,

I didn't make anyones point. All of my bucks were shot legally, over bait yes. I am a good shot, but not a skilled shot like many of the readers of these posts.

And yes, good luck shooting a doe setting up next to a trail during daylight. Of course some good bucks will get taken, but at this point its all luck. I work 60 hours a week and don't get to hunt as much as I'd like.

I fail to understand what the hell you are trying to say.

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Are you trying to convince others that we should not ban baiting so that you can keep your streak of P&Y bucks? How many in a row is your goal? I think you are doing more harm than good by saying any more in favor of baiting.

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I could care less about my streak. My new wife doesn't see nthe point. All I am am saying is that be careful for what you wish for.

Baiting, in my nick of the woods, is how we hunt. I'll just be honest and say thats what we do. And of course we are too stupid to defend ourselves.....

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Littlebuck should be able to say what he wants about shooting over bait I thought the ban is based on disease not ethics 1000's of people shoot over bait and it is ethical to them if don't like don't use bait. If its based on ethics food plots should also go. Because they work real well to harvest deer. Maybe the 7mm should be banned because I can shoot deer of my neighbors bait pile.

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--with less recoil than a .300 Win!!

 Nuke the Whales

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What about: "Bait anywhere and all you want after the close of rifle season."? May save a few from a "Jack London" death and decrease the risk of disease due to a lesser herd during yarding.

I'm channeling Jack Daniel. He is wise.

 Nuke the Whales

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I have no problem with baiting it is not legal here in Sd.But to tell me that a food plot is the same as laying out a 5 gallon bucket of corn is crazy. I have never walked a pile of corn and seen pheasants fly out. Trying to push some one elses ethics on everyone doesn't work and the winter pictures of deer show that the gathering problem has nothing to do with a 5 gallon bucket of corn.

 Adn

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I don't know why anyone would say that the "ban baiting" crowd has only used disease as a reason to ban baiting.

Disease transmission concerns (not the causing of disease) the ethics of baiting wars, and finally what the non-hunting population thinks of shooting bambi while his head is buried up to the ears in a bucket are all good reasons to think twice about the practice of baiting.

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain

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littlebuck keep posting it justs keeps betting better all the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are a classic piece of work who is to ignorant to realize that your own actions put in print underscore why many people view baiting as bad ethically. But you do not get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Allen and others after I posted did so but you seem to be a bit dense. So here it is!!! You have painted yourself to be a selfish,instant gratification person who is not hunting, but is shooting, because successful hunting is all about the bag to you. A prime example of what sportsmen do not want presenting them as hunters!!!!!!! Legal does not always equate to ethical!

My support for passing of the ban is about disease first and foremost. But man it is hard not to rip into the ethics side when you have posts like this!!!!!!!!!!!!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Hardwater - There was a TB outbreak in a cattle herd in rural Morton county in 1999. Do you know how many deer were eradicated?? Where was the disease transmission traced to??

So are we protecting the deer from the cattle or the cattle from the deer??

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Who doesn't like to be successful in everything they do?  I read through all of littlebuck's posts and I don't quite understand the thrashing.  There are many areas in North Dakota that will be basically impossible from a standpoint of time, terrain and availability.  Those areas will no longer be hunted because they simply are not feasible.  I have highlighted this many times.  One other related example would be Sporting Chance or the elderly.  They will lose a tool as well.

And where did this whole antelope thing all of a sudden become HW's bread and butter?  If anything it hurts him because the very ethics he preaches rests with the public.  The non-hunting radical public will see no difference in a deer taken over a pile of corn, a corn cob from a fallen bait plot or harvest field or an antelope shot while drinking water.

Lastly, I get a kick out of the "hoarding" comments and that baiting is the blamed culprit.  Why do you think people invest time and money into their property by enhancing it with food plots and habitat?  Simple answer:  to increase the wildlife potential on their property.  The only folks capable of that are landowners or those able to lease or expend money on such goals.  So please people, if you will spare anything during this conversation please quit with the idea that baiting is the cause of the hoarding of wildlife.  If anything, it gives others without owning land or the financial means to manage property to use a tool in increasing their odds on harvesting an animal.  With a ban, you will see the true meaning of hoarding wildlife.  Does a truck load baiter hoard wildlife?  Yeah, I won't dispute that but that is all the more reason to regulate banning.

As I continue to participate in this discussion I wish more and more for it to end.  Really, I don't care how it ends because I am not pig headed enough to think when I hunt without bait I am an elite hunter nor when I have used bait do I believe I am less worthy.  It would be fun to know where the folks who are against baiting hunt (I'm sure they have prime land to hunt, post their property and have quality habitat and food plots at their disposal).  I'm sure those folks claim they are elite hunters when really, they are only using a tool to enhance their odds.  Are their those that believe in the ban for their ethic issues?  Oh I'm sure but I really can't waste more of my time on trying to change their minds.  Are their those sold on the disease issue?  Oh I imagine but I can only hope they are not hypocritical like some have been in this discussion.  The 15,000 or so bow hunters that enter the field are a small piece of the puzzle when many of those thousand do not bait.  It seems some wish to only target the bow hunter which is ludicrous.  This is why I remain active in supporting three things:

1)  A fair all out ban that places the burden on all entities.
2)  Place a ban but do so with regulation that will address disease, ethics and private property rights in mind.
3)  Do not pass the bill because the NDGF already possesses the power to do as they wish (the reason it failed in 2007)

-Tim Sandstrom 


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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I think this video by the NDGF clearly shows all of the reasons baiting should be banned. It has been proven in other states that banning baiting has increased the state wide success rate in deer harvest. Baiting draws deer from public lands to private which lessons the opportunity for the majority of hunters, but it does allow some to shoot 10 P&Y's in ten years. Must be proud, NOT!

http://gf.nd.gov/multimedia/pubs/baiting-video.html

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Tim,

Thanks. I guess my intention wasn't to get people all fired up. My initial post was just some of my observations of deer and deer hunting, things all of us love. Everyone have a good weekend and enjoy the Super Bowl.

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Tim tell me why you think the prairies are not places a person can harvest a buck or doe without bait or a tree to climb?

Did you get a chance to watch the wildlife pursuit show on antelope? You have hunted them, as have I and if they can take an antelope out in the open without hunting water, or bait, do not proclaim that suddenly without bait that millions of acres of land in ND suddenly will not be huntable for whitetail!!!!!!!!!!

That is why I jump on LB comments and it seems you have no knowledge of hunting open areas either or are choosing not to acknowledge that you do.

My cousins very first buck ever was taken with a bow when he was 16 years old from the ground and the nearest tree was three miles away. He did a spot and stalk on the buck using wind, cover, and patience to get within his shooting ablity range which was less than 40 yards!

You tell me how a 16 can do it and someone with years of supposedly bow hunting experience cannot????????

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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Did I say you cannot take a deer out in the prairie without bait?  I said it becomes increasingly difficult and those that do not have the resources or time to hunt as those fortunate to have both are left without options.  Those folks exist and exist in good numbers.  It is those people I speak of.  I am not one of them, at least yet.  I imagine in due time I will have a family, a career that demands more time and maybe a time where I no longer have "daddy's" land.  In these times, I more than likely would reach for an aid.  An aid to help.  This HW is what I have tried to explain in a responsible way.  Maybe I accomplished that now?

Until then, I will continue to hunt as with the options I have available.  My goals are to harvest a good whitetail, mule deer and antelope with my bow.  I imagine my whitetail will come by way of a bait plot or maybe a harvested or unharvested field.  Perhaps it could come from intercepting or studying deer traveling to a landowners field or in many cases, their own bait plots.  I figure my mule deer will most likely come by way of spotting scope and stalk.  Although, I could foresee myself hunting near alfalfa fields.  Maybe even a water hole.  Speaking of, I know for sure next year I will be hunting an antelope by way of water hole.  They seem quite easy to harvest over water.  If the water doesn't produce I may use my antelope call and Mel Dutton decoy.  In one way or another, I am using an attractant and maybe that attractant will end up being a five gallon bucket of durum.  Regardless, time, effort, land access and more time are the required tools.  And if I'm lucky and successful enough, I may just own my own land and manage it with bait plots and habitat.  Of course, I will then only be part of the so called "problem" of baiting.

Oh the vicious cycle.  Hurry up Feb 12th I can't take it anymore!

Tim Sandstrom


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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Quote
"Did you get a chance to watch the wildlife pursuit show on antelope"

I see your still preaching the ban baiting gospel sbout every hour eh hartwater.

You know I did see that show, some of the worst arrow flingin I've ever seen in a hunting show. The guy hit that one in its horn I believe and some shots were about 5 feet off the mark. And yet in the end he hits one at 62 yards..nice. And I loved the incredibly hard stalk in the ditch beside I94, it looked allot like whitetail hunting....ah yea right.

But I'll tell you what, if your ban does go thru. Can you imagine the amount of drive by arrow flingin that will go on just like those dudes out of Fargo on that show.
I Scheels guys will like all the extra broadhead and arrow sales thou!

 

"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the American Government take care of him;better take a closer look at the American Indian."
Henry Ford

 

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Just put so more bait out today man do they love that stuff. I will have to remember what i am feesing for next fall when hunting season starts. O yeah why in gods name is this such a big deal? I think it comes down to this. If you like to bait go right ahead it isn't anyones right to tell people how to hunt as long as they are doing so within the law.

One Big Ass Mistake America !

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HW look up the definition of common sense. If you asked seasoned bowhunters for their ideal terrian to bowhunt around the country, very few would say ND. Can someone as your nephew kill a deer with a bow in the open. The answer is yes, but most times the deer will see the hunter coming for miles and just outrun them. Most of the terrian in ND favors guns over bows.

But that not what this about right-- its about disease, but only the disease deer get from eating bait, not cows food right.

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Common sense (as much as I despise the term) would also tell us that bowhunters have been successful in ND even before it became a state and a heck of a lot longer than the current baiting frenzy.

Heck, as far as that goes, bowhunters were pretty successful even before the advent of this record number of deer.

I maintain a person does not need bait to be a successful bowhunter in ND. One also does not need a pile of bait in order to make sure they have a high chance of hitting their target. Both just need a little bit of skill.

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain

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Littlebuck,

Your thoughts are fine and sound. Keep you guns blazing. HW hunting Antelope? Hunting Antelope is like kissing your sister it just ain't right. I went Antelope hunting many years ago and I was ashamed after I shot one. That was too easy, it wasn't ehtical hunting to me. But to each their own.

HW I know where there is alot of whitetails right now. I would like to watch you stalk them. I bet 99 out of 100 won't let you get close enough for a bow shot. Heck, most won't let you get close enough for a rifle shot

Silly

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Heck Allen,

You can come with HW and show me your great stalking skills too.

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We just keep getting off of the subject Guys ! ! !

Remember this proposed ban on baiting is only because of disease right?

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"Remember this proposed ban on baiting is only because of disease right?"

I almost forgot is only about the disease deer get from eating at a bait pile. Not the disease they get from eating with cows in Minnesota.

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bdog,

You may just be a little surprised at how close I can get to an awake deer as long as I am patient.

And no, it's not just about disease control.

I guess in a perfect world I would like to see the ethics of a particular hunting technique ruled on by the majority and the scientific principles ruled on by those who have dedicated their life to studying it.

In regards to baiting, both scenarios would do away with baiting.

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain

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Allen,

Surprise me. I will take you up on that. I would like to film it if you don't mind. E-mail me at brj59301@yahoo.com Maybe we can do it tommorrow before the game?

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Are any deer shot with a bow in sd just wondering because u cant bait here. I dont really care either way but if everyone would get as involved with gun rights as they did this we would have a chance. Can we set odds for the start date of Relating hunting over bait (2010).

 Adn

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Good points KurtR.

"Common sense (as much as I despise the term)" Allen, I stated in an earlier post that common sense is not popular these days. But to each their own.

I am gald you admitted that this push to ban baiting is about some feeling shooting a deer over bait is not ethical. It was silly to me to see some posting that we got to ban baiting because it might spread a disease, but we won't have ranchers do anything. I like things and agendas to be transparent. I know Allen transparenency is not popular in today's world either. But I like it and common sense. At least I know where things stand.

I am not for or against baiting. I feed all year here and also do food plots. I don't do it just to kill the deer, I like having them around. Sometimes someone gets in the stand and hunts. I will just do more food plots if a ban takes place. But as Tim has pointed out let all groups be affected by the ban not just one.

In my book it is Ok for some to push the ethics things if they feel strongly about it. But let's not hide their adgenda under the veil of disease. Put the cards on the table and let's see where it goes.

The only opinion I have on this is you have one group who likes to bait. They don't seem to be telling the other group that thay have to bait.

But the group that doesn't like to bait has been trying to mandate to the all that nobody can bait, expect ranchers, or special groups or.... I think we have to be very careful what we tell landowners they can or can't do on property they have bought and sweated on.

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1 more thought.

Is killing a deer as he drinks more ethical then killing him as he eats?

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Sorry, busy today. I am going to go chase rabbits with a friend in just a few minutes.

Then again, with how poor my accuracy is with my .22, I should just say going for a walk in the woods.

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain

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Everybody might want to read Doug Leier's column in the 1/30 Grand Forks Herald. It's probably in other papers as well. Does a pretty good job of explaining the issues of feeding wildlife. The title talks about bird feeders but he also talks about deer.

Of course, he works for GNF so if you don't agree with him. you have an easy rebuttal. We already know that most on here know lots more than the professional wildlife managers.

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This fighting between hunters has to stop!
It's sickening when you really think about it, soon over 10,000 folks will have read this post. Is this the best we can do? BAN BAN BAN! Your going to ban yourself right out of this sport you goof balls!
Have you ever watched a hunting show called The Choice?
It's called that for a reason, because they think everyone should be able to hunt any way they choose. No matter how ethical or unethical you might think it is, who are you to judge?
I say leave well enough alone, the disease twist is a joke and has way to many holes to hold water. Look at Texas, they bait like crazy and have millions of more deer than us.
So some bowhunters in ND choose to bait, big deal!
But things are just peachy if you hunt next to a so called "food plot". No matter what you think your doing in your twisted reasoning...YOUR BAITING THEM IN SO YOU CAN KILL THEM! And you know what, big deal, good for you!

Its crazy that some of these so called ethical hunters that spend several hours a day on this single post come across more like PETA members rather than hunting brothers.

Go spend your time on some animal rights web site forum maybe, instead of bashing other hunters trying to take away more rights. Whats next on the ban list....??

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This fighting between hunters has to stop!
It's sickening when you really think about it, soon over 10,000 folks will have read this post. Is this the best we can do? BAN BAN BAN! Your going to ban yourselfs right out of this sport you goof balls!
Have you ever watched a hunting show called The Choice?
It's called that for a reason, because they think everyone should be able to hunt any way they choose. No matter how ethical or unethical you might think it is, who are you to judge?
I say leave well enough alone, the disease twist is a joke and has way to many holes to hold water. Look at Texas, they bait like crazy and have millions of more deer than us.
So some bowhunters in ND choose to bait, big deal it not the end of the world!
But things are just peachy in your world if you hunt next to a so called "food plot". No matter what you think your doing in your twisted reasoning...YOUR BAITING THEM IN SO YOU CAN KILL THEM! And you know what, big deal, good for you!

Its crazy that some of these so called ethical hunters that spend several hours a day on this single post come across more like PETA members rather than hunting brothers.

Go spend your time on some animal rights web site forum maybe, instead of bashing other hunters trying to take away more rights. Whats next on the ban list....?? Ban bows! Ban guns! Heck BAN HUNTING its not ethical and fair! sound familiar?

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GREAT photo in the photo gallery Easy decoy showing deer standing on top of hay pile eating away yarded up. Another good point goatboy about texas. I agree the whole ban on baiting is a giant joke I have emailed all the goverment officials and voiced my opinion hope all of you have done the same.

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I have been reading some of the postings on whether baiting should be banned or not. It is pretty hard to put something back in the box after is has been released, right? Whom ever decided to allow baiting in the first place should have thought about having something like blow up in their face. Did anybody fill out the resent questionnaire for 2008? I see that in 2007, 76% of all deer take were adult bucks, what percentage were does? Another question be what % of adult bucks were taken over bait verses non-bait and how about the does? We had 17,145 bow-hunters, of which how many used bait and how many did not? Same with rifle? There is one thing that nobody has talked about, and that is we need to start harvesting more does than bucks, then we won't have to ban the practice of baiting. If the ban does go through, how will the G&F enforce it? I hope it does not pass in my opinion, because people are going to find a way around it no matter what. What about the people who own private land? That has been brought up a few times or what are you going to tell the people who just like to feed the deer year-round? If I owned land and someone of higher authority said that I could not do it anymore, I would tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine because it is my land, I pay the taxes on the land, therefore I should be able to do what ever I want, right? I am sure there are a few people who feel that way. Another point to make is, we have all this technology (rangefinders, trail cams), calls, scent lures, etc. how is baiting any different? We are still drawing deer toward us are we not, doesn't that give us the advantage? If a person wants to bait, let them, it is their choice. Who says that it's right or wrong? If baiting gives me the chance to make a good clean kill, hey I am doing my part in helping trim the deer herd in ND.

BAW's picture
BAW
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Bump! ;)

Tim Sandstrom's picture
Tim Sandstrom
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Never thought this bad boy would need to be bumped!

But since it did get bumped I just remembered something that was heard through the grapevine.  If this bill fails in committee or in the legislature it sounds like the NDGF will be enacting a ban or maybe regulation.  Judging from their prior comments a ban is not something they want.  So there you go folks.

Tim Sandstrom


 

 

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silage's picture
silage
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Just to start out I am for the baiting of deer. I have just skimmed and scanned most of the blogs on this matter. Three things stick out. #1Disease #2 Ethics and #3 Perception First off I believe the threat of disease is blown way out of proportion. Show me the odds of it happening. Somebody, who uses disease as an excuse to ban baiting, throw some proven numbers or ratios at me and the others that might change our minds. baiting vs non-baiting, waterholes vs baiting, foodplots vs baiting. Change my mind. Because waterholes are terrible places to spread diseases and such in cattle and sheep.
Ethics? Would somebody please tell me why it is unethical to shoot a deer over a pile of feed? Its ethical if it's in rows or solid seeded? Ethically whats the difference? Ethically whats the difference between tempting a deer with food or tempting them with a lure? Putting doe in heat lure out for a buck in full rut is really a low thing to do. Or how about baiting for bears? I realize that bears are not a North Dakota thing but I'm guessing a few of you have done it. But its actually considered more ethical to shoot a bear over bait so that the bears sex and age can be determined. Also so that a safer and more ethical shoot can be made. The same can be said for the baiting of deer. How about using bait for trapping? Or heres one that will get alot of you. How about using live bait for fishing? How ethical is it to basicly kill one animal(minnow,worm,maggot,etc.) in order to catch and possibly kill another animal? If one thing gets banned it opens the door alittle more for the banning of other things. Espiecally if they are similar. So can anyone tell me what is unethical about shooting a deer over bait? I don't want to hear about the deer with its head in the bucket because its the crap that PETA and the like will tell me.
Perception? Perception kind of goes along with ethics. Anti-hunters perceptions are going to stay the same. And us hunters should not be stepping on each others toes over this issue. For us it should be to each his own. But unfortunatly their are a few hunters who apparently have gotten greedy and want all the deer to themselves. I actually believe they are the main reason for this whole debate. And from what I've heard and read some of these greedy hunters are outfitters and guides. Maybe the rules should be changed for theses outfitters and guides. But anyways, I guess I don't what the perception is of somebody shooting a deer over bait. What is the perception? Is it considered unfair? And/or unfair for who or what? The deer? Or the other hunter that isn't using bait?
I believe deer are just as likly to get/catch a disease in a waterhole or foodplot as they are over a bait pile. I believe it is ethical to draw a deer closer and stop them for a better, easier, cleaner shot. And I perceive it to be just as fair as using a lure, decoy, minnow and/or buck grunt.
So to end my ranting I would just like to say; Prove me wrong? Change my mind?

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silage, agreed...nicely put. it took me a lot of reading of posts, the NDGF info and then a lot of thinking to decide where i stood on this issue. but, i finally brought myself to take a position/side on this debate.

i said this above but it bears repeating... deer are going to congregate around food whether it was put there as a bait pile or just because it is there. it doesn't matter if the pile takes the form of a small food plot, a cattle feed area, some spilled grain or a small harvested pea field. i am of the position that a bunch of small bait piles spread out around an area is better than all of the deer bunching up at some feed lot or other food source that doesn't qualify as a bait pile but, in essence, does the same thing. the biggest problems with deer congregating occur this time of year and no "bait ban" is going to prevent that problem.

in fact, i'd bet if u could break down the risk of disease spreading into percentages that you would find hunter bait piles probably account for a very, very, very small percentage of that risk. large scale cattle operations or typical accidental spills in farm yards are probably at the top of the list and recreational feeding by the general public (not for baiting purposes) probably falls right in the middle. imho, this ban would do nothing to cull the real threats of disease spreading.

and don't get me talking about ethics and/or public perception... like u said, i've yet to see a deer with its head in a bucket. 99% of baiting does not take that form. that is the worst example of baiting that the antis can come up with and, therefore, they use it as their poster child. but, if i see a deer w/ its head in a bucket, i'd shoot it. and i certainly won't be judging the guy who put the bucket there. as long as the animal is harvested (PC for killed) as humanely as possible, i couldn't care less. and i have trouble "getting" the ethics/public perception arguments being put out there by the "ban baiting" crowd. there are probably thousands of different ways that we lure in animals (or fish for that matter) by playing on their instincts for food, a mate, shelter, etc. this is just another tool. how would all of you feel if someone introduced a bill to outlaw the use of doe estrus? or changed the gun season so it didn't fall during the rut?

and when u take the risk of disease spreading and break it down, given the small percentage of that risk that baiting probably plays, that argument is losing credibility with me too.

Born to hunt and fish... Forced to work!

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solocam
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I was done with this thread and working on my letter to the legislature but had to get this one last comment in. I don't know why they also think eliminating baiting will make a big difference in the disease threat anyway. Deer basically congregate during the winter months at hay piles, agricultural fields, or near farmyards. This is when they are most susceptible to disease transmission. A few buckets of grain during the early fall makes no difference. The legislature/NDGF just needs to regulate and not eliminate.

"When we step into the outdoors, we have the privilege of standing in the presence of God through the power and majesty of His creation. That makes hunting more than a sport or a hobby. It's a calling to something greater. And that transforms the places that we stand into something more than a cropfield or a pasture or a mountain. It makes that place Hallowed Ground."

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silage, you may not want to look at the disease issue as being real, but in deer who feed from piles of grain vs from browsing or normal feeding habits even when congregated the risk of disease manifestation and spreading increase. Studies done in MN bear this out as well as studies done in WI and MI as well. Like I told Tim and others this information is all in the WI DNR files that can be accessed on line.

Next we should look at your #2-3 because they are one in the same or closely connected. I have personal beliefs on why baiting is wrong and not fair chase when you have deer coming to the sound of a feeder going off! This reaction also does not set well with the non hunting public. Who make up the bulk of the voting public. They hold bait piles as cheating unlike food plots and habitat development. They also understand the fact that animals will frequent agriculture areas as part of normal behavior.

My question is for all who bait, do you take pictures of your trophy down on your bait piles? No you do not do you!!!!!! Not proud enough of the bait pile or are you embarrassed to put it out publicly for all to see? Does having that bait pile in the picture diminish the perceived value that you think people would place on the trophy? Somehow tainting the taking of the deer? Or more likely calling into question your prowness as a hunter?

After all people will put their bow, or rifle in the picture with them, why not the other tool they are so proud of?

I will wait to see all of the proud hunters who bait to post pictures of your kills on top of your bait piles!!!!!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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bdog
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HW

Let it go we all know your stance on this.

Tim or anybody else was is meant when you said the bill got bumped?

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5575
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Hardwater I think you've lost it, LOL! You sound more and more like the crazy lady down the road that used to chase after cars with a fly swatter screaming and hollering. Never did understand what in the world she was saying or what she was so mad about.

Silage and espringers, GREAT POSTS!

 

"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the American Government take care of him;better take a closer look at the American Indian."
Henry Ford

 

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Hardwaterman
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bdog, it seems BAW and Tim do not want the thread to fade. silage asked and was answered. It is encouraging to hear that even if the bill dies that the G&F will do the right thing.

But I surely would like to see some of the trophy deer or even some of the does that so many seem to think will not be harvested otherwise in a photo next to those all important bait piles!!!!!!!

I am sure that some have photos of those more ethical shots taken next to the bait pile that provided that more ethical shot. I am sure there are proud trophy hunters who included the bait pile when snapping pictures of their trophy since they are so proud of the fact they took it over bait!

I will watch the photo gallery for them coming soon!!!!!!!!

In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!

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